A DA successor based on a different codex.....

[Scoped Saviour]

Hey guys.

 

Been interested in doing a DA successor for quite a while. Done a few test models with moderate success. But having dived nose first into this sub-forum I seem to see rather large quantities of "civil unrest" regarding the DA codex.... Out of date, expensive, etc....

 

So my question is.... Could i base a successor chapter on a different codex? Obviously using codex:SM would be fine but I was thinking all together rather more.... extravagant.... I was thinking Blood Angels...

 

Bare with me here, but sanguinary guard could be just my own elites and use the sanguinor as my chapter master, maybe use the red thirst special rule as some kind of "unforgiven suspected in the area" eqivilant? The fluff behind that may be difficult as I understand the very few know of the DA secret shame. Obviously I wouldn't use the death company as I can't think of a DA equvilant.

 

Is this viable? If I sound ridiculous please understand I have only been in the hobby 6 months so am still very naive.....

[pueriexdeus]

The bottom line is that you need to stay consistent with your rule-set. If you choose to play a divergent DA Chapter with Blood Angel/Ultra Marine rules it will be frowned upon by most every seasoned player you run into.

 

If you want to play BA rules, then play BA, it is an easier Codex to play than DA. Once you become a seasoned player then maybe Dark Angels will appeal to you, it's not for the squeamish...

 

Civil Unrest is aimed at Games Workshop for screwing the DA players with the V5 BRB and no KY jelly at all. After all the Dark Angels are the poster children of Civil Unrest.

 

As a result many DA players have become fallen... Those Fallen and their corrupted spawn, will, after this post, try to tell you it's OK to be different. They will whisper in your ear that using a different Codi is the way to go... Dark Angels are weak, they have nothing, come over here, were better, let me show you the way...

 

Careful, now you stand knee deep in the snow, ice forms at your back, a cold wind blows in your face, shadow beasts swirl around you.

 

Those who have come with you to stand before the gates, falter and slink off in the dark seeking an imaginary warmth. Their only warmth will be the blood they shed as the beasts of Caliban rip their throats before they can scream.

 

Be very careful now young acolyte, you now stand at the Gates of Caliban, shut they will stay until the sun rises, you will either become a Dark Angel or you will not.

 

We, will have no need to tend your torn body if you chose to seek a warmth that will forever elude you. ;)

[Captain Semper]

I am one of these voices :unsure:!

 

Let me make my case: the real difference between various SM chapters is fluff. I like DAs because of background and I always paint & field DAs. The rule set is actually an abstraction that allows you to interact with other armies and have a (hopefully) fun game. Now in order to make it more interesting, GW is attempting in each book to integrate some of the fluff in the form of special rules and such. Sometimes they succeed sometimes they don't. And sometimes the overall ruleset is so flawed you start with a build-in disadvantage. Now I argue, there is no reason for that. DAs are not DAs because they can have an all terminator build. They are DAs because their 1st Company are Fallen hunters, because their Chaplains are cruel torturers, because they a paranoid and secluded organization and a dozen other things. All these are not special rules. They are background.

 

So if you choose a different rule set to represent your flavor of DAs then fine. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see a BA player adopting our own Codex in order to get an all-Terminator army! Or do you think that under no circumstances would the BAs employ such a force? If the situation called for it off course they would - what are they, idiots?

 

The question of course is why would you think a DA force would be represented on the tabletop by a BA list? Why wouldnt you go for a BA successor? If you can answer this question to yourself, then just do it!

 

This hobby is about creativity, don't let ill placed Codex "patriotism" spoil it for you.

[Brother Landrain]

Paint your Army any way you want to...

 

Call your Army anything you want...

 

Use any Codex you want to play for your rules.

 

Heck, Use a different codex every game, just as long as you use one Codex at a time (especially in tournaments)

 

While some will look down on you, and stick their nose in the air, call you this or that.

 

All that matters is that you play the game and have fun.

 

Ultimately, if you do not have fun, and people you play do not have fun, the games will stop, and the Hobby Dies a little more.

 

 

I currently own close to 600 Space Marines of all types, scouts, PA, Bikes, TDA.

They are painted in my own Colors.

They are my space marine Chapter.

 

Sometimes they are Deathwing, sometimes Ravenwing, Sometimes they are Wolves, Sometimes they are Bloods.

About the only thing I havent played them as is GK or Loganwing at this time.

Mostly because I only have 20 PS/SB TDA. WTG GW to sell more models...

 

I play, or try to play competitively, but I also ache to pull out my 105 TDA Deathwing and 100 Bike strong Ravenwing and go to town in a fun Fluffy way.

With my limited ability to spend time out, and lack of a truely close FLGS that supports gaming, I usually only get to play on days when I travel for a tournament. But I strive to always have fun.

 

And that, should be your goal.

Having fun.

[Scoped Saviour]

Thanks guys, the reason i want to play DA is indeed the fluff!

 

The reason i want to use the BA codex is because it shiny :(

 

Heres a question, could i say use the SM codex, play DA successor but have "sanguinary guard" and "sanguinor" as count as hq and elite choices? i imagine the sanguinor would be fine as i believe thats what custom chapters do anyway? pick a hq character from the codex's and use them in conjunction their own model they have made using a "count as" rule? Dont know if its allowed with elites though... as you could end up just picking the best bits from all the codex's ;)

[Bryan Blaire]

In a friendly game, you and your opponent could agree to play with whatever rules you guys want. Friendly games can allow mixing of Codexes, allies using different Codexes in a single FoC, or even using fan-dexes.

 

I don't play in tournaments usually (maybe once every two to three years), but it is my understanding that depending on the tournament and who it is run by and what its purpose is, the organizer can allow anything that is dictated by the tournament (such as GW only, GW Codexes + ForgeWorld). Generally, in a GW tournament, you are only going to be allowed to play a single pure Codex, so you wouldn't be able to use the C:SM with HQ and Elites counts as, unless they are "counts as" C:SM HQs.

 

Pick-up games are probably going to only be allowed to play with whatever your opponent is familiar with, including all of the above commentary.

 

Not sure if that helps you, but it may give you a little direction depending on what exactly you want to play your army in.

 

Personally, my fellow gamers tend to let me use all the C:SM analogs to DA units, but still using the rules for the unique DA stuff (ie, C:SM Tact squads, C:SM Dreads, C:SM Devs and Preds, but DA HQs, RW and DW squads, with no C:SM bike units or Termi units). It allows for a little bit more modern points parity, but I'm not sure just how strongly it really affects game outcome, I haven't actually play tested both enough in the same scenario/same rules with both pure DA Codex and the hybrid one to actually be sure.

[stonhinge]

If the style of game that you want to play doesn't quite fit with the DA codex, then use a different one. If I wanted to field a fast attacking non-bike army, I'd probably go with a BA codex army with lots of assault troops. I'd steer clear of Death Company, and probably choose weaponry that's similar to what's available in the DA codex. If I wanted to field a "greenwing" army, I'd probably lean towards C:SM. You bust out the SW codex, though, and some of us are probably going to want to have a word with you. There will likely be a line. ;)

 

If people have a problem, well, tell them it's a successor chapter, but not who they're successors of. It's a SECRET. They must not know our SECRET.

 

Purists may look askance at you, but when it comes down to it, it's a game, and you can play it how you like. Paint them how you like, and as long as you're not constantly changing codex based on who your opponent is, you'll be fine.

 

Regarding "count as" - that's simply the practice of using one model to represent another, not lift rules from one codex and use it with another. WYSIWYG is still pretty well enforced, unless your opponent is okay with things. What custom chapters do is take a codex, and use it's rules and no others. They just give different names to the special characters. In my Guardians of the Covenant army, my HQ will not be Belial, but someone else. Can't be Belial, because Belial is a DA, not GotC. But he counts as Belial for rules purposes.

 

Now, if you wanted to make a custom codex, mixing and matching units from multiple codexes, then you're going to need opponent permission. Ideally, I'd grab 3-4 different opponents, or rather, 3-4 different opposing armies to playtest it against, to balance things. That'll give you a leg up on future opponents who might waver at first, but if several other people vouch for you, are willing to give it a shot. Just don't expect to be able to use it in any sort of tournament.

[Droma]

If you want to use a different codex then go ahead. If you mostly play against strangers in your local GW like I do then you're not going to be able to mix and match rules/units from different codex's. If you want to use BA use BA just don't mix BA units into a C:SM army.

 

A robed jump army would be kind of cool though. Could give a few guys winged helmets too.

[Scoped Saviour]

If the style of game that you want to play doesn't quite fit with the DA codex, then use a different one. If I wanted to field a fast attacking non-bike army, I'd probably go with a BA codex army with lots of assault troops. I'd steer clear of Death Company, and probably choose weaponry that's similar to what's available in the DA codex.

 

This is perfect for me, the only tripping point was interpretating the BAs special rules and converting them to DA fluff. E.g Red Thirst.

 

A robed jump army would be kind of cool though. Could give a few guys winged helmets too.

 

Now your talking my language :D some winged jumpacks too......

[EPK]

I agree with the do what you want mindset.

 

You can paint and call your army anything you want and use any Marine codex to play them. If you want to justify BA codex by changing the names of things, thats all fine and dandy, but in the end that justification is only for you - your opponent will simply go by the codex.

 

Obviously mixing and matching rules from codices would not fly in any form other than maybe with a friendly gaming group.

[Brother Immolator]

Lies and Heresy!Chambers bolter.

 

Well ok i overreact(unloads bolter), i have a DA list using C:SM.

 

Play what you want indeed,but in general census it is a little odd to use a chapters codex to represent another.Especially such a radical turn as the one you plan.

I wonder though since you want BA units and BA stuff why not to go with BA successor?

 

Also is it me only that thinks of robed JP marines funny?

 

BTW pueriexdeus that was an awesome post,makes me feel dirty for using C:SM....Ill go to the interrogator to confess my sins.

[Captain Semper]

I wonder though since you want BA units and BA stuff why not to go with BA successor?

 

A good question! I guess the OP must like our fluff too much and BA list too much! Well life is full of surprises :yes:!

 

Also is it me only that thinks of robed JP marines funny?

 

No it's not. I find it visually wrong as well... Not to mention it might catch fire! But there are those who think it's dead cool. Again life is full of surprises...

[Kebabyuchenko]

The bottom line is that you need to stay consistent with your rule-set. If you choose to play a divergent DA Chapter with Blood Angel/Ultra Marine rules it will be frowned upon by most every seasoned player you run into.

 

If you want to play BA rules, then play BA, it is an easier Codex to play than DA. Once you become a seasoned player then maybe Dark Angels will appeal to you, it's not for the squeamish...

 

Civil Unrest is aimed at Games Workshop for screwing the DA players with the V5 BRB and no KY jelly at all. After all the Dark Angels are the poster children of Civil Unrest.

 

As a result many DA players have become fallen... Those Fallen and their corrupted spawn, will, after this post, try to tell you it's OK to be different. They will whisper in your ear that using a different Codi is the way to go... Dark Angels are weak, they have nothing, come over here, were better, let me show you the way...

 

Careful, now you stand knee deep in the snow, ice forms at your back, a cold wind blows in your face, shadow beasts swirl around you.

 

Those who have come with you to stand before the gates, falter and slink off in the dark seeking an imaginary warmth. Their only warmth will be the blood they shed as the beasts of Caliban rip their throats before they can scream.

 

Be very careful now young acolyte, you now stand at the Gates of Caliban, shut they will stay until the sun rises, you will either become a Dark Angel or you will not.

 

We, will have no need to tend your torn body if you chose to seek a warmth that will forever elude you. ;)

 

 

pueriexdeus - You deserve a medal for that post mate!

 

Kebabyuchenko xxx

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Scope Saviour, could you share some of your chapter's fluff with us? I'm curious about how your successor chapter became so much like the Blood Angels in combat doctrine, and I don't mean that in a snarky way.

[RayJ]

Make sure your models are all WYSIYG, and use the codex with rules appropriate to how you want it to play out. Fluff is mutable. I have used my vast collection of Space Marines (11-12k in points) to represent every power armor codex out there, and with most codices I can pull off a tournament army or two fully painted.

 

The key is making sure there can be little to no rules confusion based off of wargear. Players are encouraged by GW to use your own chapter, so any remarks about aesthetics beyond making sure models are equipped appropriately is against the spirit of the game. Your bubblegum pink marines, yellow marines, gold marines, silver marines, and all the other colors are just fine being used in any codex where their wargear has rules.

 

For you, using the Blood Angels codex and calling yourself a member of the Unforgiven should be perfectly fine. I say go boldly forward!

[Abhorash]

pueriexdeus your metaphors are magical, and there must not be any divergences from the unforgiven.

[HsojVvad]

Use what ever codex you want. Just expect some remarks that is all. I saw a DA player use the SM codex, so in fun, I called him Fallen. I don't think he liked it, but then again, he never really gave a good reason why he hides and cowers his DA against my Tyranids ( I only have 2 armies, DA and Tyranids). You want to go by fluff, then play by fluff I say. I would never thought I would see the time and day when a DA Hides and Cowers in a Vehicle for 3 or 4 turns and doesn't want to get into the thick of things in battle. So seeing someone "saying" they are playing DA for Fluff but use another codex and then play in such an unfluffy way, it just seems pathetic to me. As a Tyranid player also, hearing people say you want SM rules then play SM. So if you want BA rules then play BA. All I am saying is, if you want to play DA but use another codex, play it as Dark Angles then.

 

You can also put it another way. You want "shiney" eh? Well do you really need to win that bad with plastic toy soldiers? After all this is what 40K is all about. It's a very expensive toy soldier game. So if you really need the "easy button" and you need to win with plastic toy soliders go ahead use another codex. Also put it this way. What if you play me, and I use the BA codex for my Tyranids? Would that be ok? If not why not? I find it so pathetic that alot of people on the Internet will say it's not OK for Xenos armies to use another codex but it's ok for SM to do so.

 

One more thing. Why stop there? If you really want "shiney", why not use the DE codex or some other non SM codex? If you are using "counts as" why does it have to be a SM codex? It can be what ever codex you want to use.

 

This game is all about fun. There was an Ork player who wanted to play a fluffy Ork army using the SM codex. He even modelled his army WYSIWYG with Orks in power armour. I thought it was great. (I only read this, didn't actually see it.) Thing is people were up in arms over this and said he had to use the Ork codex. Just use what is FUN for YOU. Don't worry what other people say. Most people don't care. Only a few people are Anal about using the "proper" codex.

 

Use any codex you want. As someone said, make sure it's only ONE codex you are using. Have fun and bear in mind you will have to live with the "Fallen" jokes. I say it in good fun, since I am also a DA player and use only the DA codex. Just because I stick with the DA codex doesn't mean you have to. Just don't insult my Intelligence and use the BA codex and then play DA in an unfluffy DA way. ;)

[Netfreakk]

First Priority is to have fun.

 

Now I wouldn't have fun playing a spacemarine army which plays tyranid rules, so I probably would be a brat and not enjoy it.

 

But that's just me. Now if you're friends / FLGS are cool with it, then go for it.

[he_plays_guitar]

It should never be a big problem for people if you use another codex for your army. There was a guy in my local GW complaining to another player that his army sucked because it was painted yellow, and he was using the BA codex. He was saying loudly that he himself was a "pure" BA player and that he shouldn't be playing his 'imperial fists" with the BA codex. What he didn't realize (or was too stupid to read his own fluff) was that the Lamenters, a Blood Angels successor chapter, is painted...wait for it...YELLOW. It doesn't matter what your army looks like. Use whatever codex you want. Yes it does help to have some fluff to back it up, but if you love the models, use them and whatever codex you choose. Personally, I have taken many Blood Angel parts and used them in my Dark Angel army. Winged jet packs, Death Company models with the blood drops and X's shaved off, and Sanguinary guard weapons and tons of winged bits. I also have Black Templar bits on my Dark Angels. Does this mean that I should use the BA codex for the models I've taken from the BA box sets, and BT codex for the guys who have chains on their bolters? No. I use my Dark Angels codex when I play my regular army list, and sometimes I switch back and forth from the DA codex and the SM codex when playing my all bike list. Does anyone berate me for playing what is essentially a White Scars bike list using the SM codex, even though all my bikes are black and have winged banners? Never.

[NightrawenII]

As someone, who is/was using different codexes for my DIY Chapter of the Unforgiven, I dare to say that the Red Thirst special rule doesn't fit my image of the Unforgiven.

 

The Dark Angels are one of the more Soldier-Chapters outta here and the bloodthirsty savages kinda ruins this.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

It's funny, I just cannot wrap my head around what my problem with using different SM codices for other SM chapters is. Especially since I collect a DA successor that does not follow the Unforgiven organization and structure and use the vanilla codex for them. Nonetheless, I feel that it is wrong to use a codex like C:BA for a chapter not of their lineage, and the same goes for SW and GK and DA, actually. It simply feels wrong, and I cannot really say why at the moment.

[Lexael]

I am all for playing your army with whatever codex you want; they're your models. Go for it.

 

When I've done so, I usually use the excuse of my battle force following the Codex Astartes, which covers virtually every known tactical formation imaginable. My only exception is when I play against Dark Angels. Then, I play C:DA and call myself Fallen. Then it adds a factor of personal honor between my opponent and I. :D

 

Although, C:GK has been tempting me to do a variation on my Deathwing.

[Isiah]

Although, C:GK has been tempting me to do a variation on my Deathwing.

 

I agree on this - although the GK are maybe a little too psychic. Nevertheless an interesting 'Deathwing' option for sure.

 

Cheers

I