Brother Degas Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 EDIT: And I'd rather have a squad of jebikes than riders on giant Lions probably end up with jet powered lions.... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zincite Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 EDIT: And I'd rather have a squad of jebikes than riders on giant Lions probably end up with jet powered lions.... ;) ...... Chaplain. You didn't program Initiate 54024 properly, his brain is obviously being corrupted by Chaos. Chuck him in the psycho-conditioning unit. EDIT: Also, quite a few of those in the Finecast second wave have already been released. Hopefully that means he'll be here sooner rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 EDIT: And I'd rather have a squad of jebikes than riders on giant Lions ;) I second that! Correct. A jetbike squad (even as a 0-1 option) would be cool despite any conflict with previous fluff or any real tactical need! Since individual codices have to strech every ounce of background and then some just to justify their own existance at least we can enjoy some cool models along the way... There is no real conflict in fluff IMHO.Most other legions abandoned or lost their jet bikes due to their knowledge(and that of the mechanicus)regressing,our chapter was always fond of old tech,we were using plasma weaponry when other chapters only began to reintroduce them,we have modified suits of terminator armor(apothecaries and in the old dexes even techmarines).I ve read somewhere that the chapter still maintains an armory of reaper autocannons but those are not in use due to the traitor symbolism.Some jetbikes is not stretching the fluff. I like to think of the DA tech marines of a close knit brotherhood.Even though they are trained in mars,our forge masters know secrets of archeo tech only known to them,been passed from master of the forge to his successor.Plus nobody knows what was recovered on Faze(or was that Phase?)IV...Perhaps the machines there had developed again anti grav tech ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 There is no real conflict in fluff IMHO.Most other legions abandoned or lost their jet bikes due to their knowledge(and that of the mechanicus)regressing,our chapter was always fond of old tech,we were using plasma weaponry when other chapters only began to reintroduce them,we have modified suits of terminator armor(apothecaries and in the old dexes even techmarines).I ve read somewhere that the chapter still maintains an armory of reaper autocannons but those are not in use due to the traitor symbolism.Some jetbikes is not stretching the fluff. I like to think of the DA tech marines of a close knit brotherhood.Even though they are trained in mars,our forge masters know secrets of archeo tech only known to them,been passed from master of the forge to his successor.Plus nobody knows what was recovered on Faze(or was that Phase?)IV...Perhaps the machines there had developed again anti grav tech ;) Well, it's one thing to say there are enough jetbikes for each Master of 2nd for every major Successor Chapter (like 6-10 in total) and another to have entire squads use them. The latter implies a significantly larger stock and knowhow as how to maintain them... especially accross all Successors. But we've seen worse in other codices so, as I said earlier, I can live with that... especially if they make some cool models :). It was Faze V :(... And the way it is mentioned in the Codex, I understand that it was data rather than hardware that was recovered. But who knows? This would be such a small retcon I don't think anyone would care :( The reaper autocannons bit, do you remember where you've read it? I'm interested as I do not recall any mention of this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Actual it would be a breaking, or at least a huge stretch of the fluff. I'm afraid that you are confusing fan rationalizations and conjecture with official fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 It would be a stretch - agreed. How big though is impossible to say as the exact amount of jetbikes available to Unforgiven is not mentioned - other than they are few (whatever that means). It also will have to do with the actual entry in the list (if they were to make an appearence in the first place). It's one thing to say it's a 0-1 option of 1-3 Jetbikes which might take the total jetbikes avaialble to the major Ungfrogiven successeros to 20-25 (incl. the ones we already accept as possible to Successors RW Masters) and another to say they are treated as bike squadrons - implying unlimited numbers... Furthermore jetbikes is not a defining part of the DA mythos, only being introduced in the 4th Ed. On top of that a mark is mentioned (Mk14) which might imply, without huge strech of the lore, that other marks might exist and might even be more common... So in my view, although I'd like jetbikes to remain rare in the battlefield of the 40th Millenium I will not shout "heresy" if in a future codex they come up as a small unit. Certainly it's not a breaking of the DA fluff - if anything it will be in-line with the technical superiority DAs supposedly enjoy. In the end of the day every Chapter gets somethign exotic once their codex is released, I don't see why jetbikes for DAs would be damaging in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Adding more jetbikes wouldn't be a stretch at all. It is just called a "retconn". Before this codex, jetbikes didn't exist at all for the DA. Who's to say they don't further alter the background, stating that the Unforgiven are the only remaining Chapters to have an *allotment* of jetbikes still remaining, such that they can field field one(or more) specialized unit(i.e. RW Command Squad, and even Veteran RW perhaps) kitted out with them so as to accompany Sammael? How about writing in background for any number of other new and different units types? It isn't really stretch at all when you simply alter the fluff to begin with so as to explain away new models. It is not like it hasn't been done more than a few times- the Stormraven, the Land Speeder Storm, Thunderwolf Cavalry, the Dreadknight, the Ironclad Dreadnought, Sanguinary Guard, the Thunderfire Cannon, the Chaos Defiler, the Penitent Engine, the Librarian Dreadnought, any of a number of new IG battle tanks, etc. You get the idea. So, RW jetbikes are no more a stretch than any of the above were when they first came out, let alone more new stuff for DA besides that even. After a bit of time, it will seem like those things have always been there. Amazing how that works, eh? :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Captain Semper i meant too that it was data that was recovered from the data banks of the silicon fortresses :). Perhaps data to reverse engineer or produce the necessary parts to repair the existing ones? To brothers shabbadoo and Darius. Its not braking anything and i dont confuse anything.Its not even a retcon.Jet bikes have been existent in the imperium before the heresy. The imperiums technology degraded so much in the years since that they lost the know how.Also the appearance of the eldar and D eldar jetbikes made the...'open minded' authorities to consider such technology heretical. There were a couple of marks in the imperium before.The legions made use of them.The mk 14 is the very jet cycles/bikes that space marines used on the field and they even had models to prove it:http://www.solegends.com/citrt/tsf18jetcycle.htm So no retcon or stretching needed,just exploring further that small grey box in the codex.The DA are a legion still and their tech marines are ahead of those from other chapters.Finding the means to make a dozen for each successor chapter functional by stating that those were kept in the rock and somehow the means to repair them was found is not ground braking. Hell giving strenguard when none existed is more fluff stretch and retcon than anything!Finding an incomplete STC is not. Captain Semper,unfortunately i cant find remember where the heck i read that about the reaper cannons :( EDIT:Conjectures are there to give your mind food for thought without placing it and fluff behind steel bars.You can dismiss them as speculation or try to explore them further.There is nothing to say that there are or there arent real.And thats the beauty of the DA chapter,so many myths and half truths that none can take something for granted.A lot more freedom for the mind than the ultramarines are the best and the rest are heretics period! codex,dont you think? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_J...ke#.ToHdMewq6Ds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 No worries... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zincite Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Actual it would be a breaking, or at least a huge stretch of the fluff. I'm afraid that you are confusing fan rationalizations and conjecture with official fluff. Actually, I think it'd be a good addition if it was done correctly. As in, not making them like Grey Knights. "Ooo yes, these are the most awesome Jetbikes ever and they've killed loads of stuff and fight for da Emperor and are super rare and powerful and have killed (Nasty!!!) demon princes lots" Type thing. Urrgh. I just disgusted myself. I'm not sure whether I'd be happy or not if we got a new codex anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 are super rare Well those actually are... Wish i had one of those jet cycles as a display piece... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zincite Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 are super rare Well those actually are... It depends on how it's presented. Look at the Deathwing entry. It calmly, happily, states that the Deathwing are among the best warriors in the galaxy. It doesn't harp on about it, it doesn't overdo it. It doesn't make it into four paragraphs detailing just how "awezome teh deathwoing arz", as per Ultramarines, Grey Knights, etc etc etc. *Shrugs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 are super rare Well those actually are... It depends on how it's presented. Look at the Deathwing entry. It calmly, happily, states that the Deathwing are among the best warriors in the galaxy. It doesn't harp on about it, it doesn't overdo it. It doesn't make it into four paragraphs detailing just how "awezome teh deathwoing arz", as per Ultramarines, Grey Knights, etc etc etc. *Shrugs* Its presented quite in the same manner as you describe just read the little box about the jetbike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Zincite you hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately I keep having this horrific feeling that Mat Ward will write the next DA codex and it will be full of hyperbole. As far as the jet bike issue goes, maybe one day the Dark Angels liberate a new planet, and find the schematics for some older jet bike technology and hold onto it themselves, kind of like how the Blood Angels kept the plans for the Baal Predator for their own usage. I don't think that would be too big of a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azoriel Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 As far as the jet bike issue goes, maybe one day the Dark Angels liberate a new planet, and find the schematics for some older jet bike technology and hold onto it themselves, kind of like how the Blood Angels kept the plans for the Baal Predator for their own usage. I don't think that would be too big of a stretch. Rather than liberating a new planet, I would much prefer there to be secret factories on one of the DA successor home worlds, like Pervigilium or Mortikah VII; the stuff were always there, but the DA are just so tight-lipped about things they didn't let anyone else know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Its presented quite in the same manner as you describe just read the little box about the jetbike! Which is itself a retconn. Otherwise, be so kind as to tell us what happened to all of the jetbikes that every one of the thousand plus Chapters had in the 41st Millenium during the Rogue Trader era, as per your link to the miniature(Stuff of Legends is a great site by the way; I visit there all the time), which any number of old school players, like myself, either owned or once owned? I'll save you the trouble: You see, there was this big, "all chapters included" jetbike destruction derby held in the grand arena on Terra. Everyone was there, and everyone was having such a rollicking good time that they only realized that all of the jetbikes, from every single one of the 1,000+ Chapters, had been wrecked beyond repair when they went to go get the next round of replacements...and found that none were left! So, then they went and beat up every IG regiment with jetbikes, stole them all(and their lunch money too), repainted them in Chapter colors, and then had at it again. Getting caught up in the fun of it all yet again, they wrecked all of those too. The mechanicus, horrified as this blatant destruction of the holy machines, did suicide their own jetbike STCs, just so that no more jetbikes would have to endure such a horrific machine death. And so the Imperial jetbike did become extinct... ...except for just a few that the Dark Angels had been holding out, and at that point, they were not of a mind to loan any out to anyone. Awwww yeah! Jetbikes only the for the DA baby! And that is why all space marine Chapters(and IG regiments) that used to have jetbikes don't have them any more, and why the DA do. RETCONN! :cuss :P The removal of jetbikes from 2E Space Marine(and Imperial Guard) lists was itself a retconn, just as adding a few back into C: DA 4E for the Unforgiven RW Masters is as well(jetbikes surely aren't mentioned in the DA arsenal in any previous DA codex of the 2E era onwards). So, yes, Sammael having a jetbike is very much a retconn, and adding more in would be a retconn too. "There are only a few jetbikes left among the Unforgiven." Scratch that. "The DA just found a jetbike STC, and are now pumping the things out as fast as they can feed raw materials into it!" Almost like GW pumping DA jetbikes out as fast as they can put little plastic pellets into injection molding machines. Ah! Now we see what the real reason behind any possible "There's TONS of DA jetbikes, and there always has been!" retconn. :lol: But who cares, so long as the retconned background is decent enough, and the models(if any) are too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I'm sorry but nowhere does it mention that they took IG's lunch money! Unless you can point a source, I say lunch money stayed in Imperial Guardmen pockets! That's the official lore :cuss ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I never said that there SHOULDN'T, be a retcon or that we shouldn't stretch the fluff. I'd have no problem actually if we got a jetbike squad. I would just hope it would be cost effective and useful. GW continuously has no problem breaking it, and wouldn't be surprised if they did it again. For someone who may have only played 4th edition, I could understand why it may not seem like such a stretch. However for someone who has palmed since 2nd edition or even 1st(Rogue Trader), just getting the one MotRW jetbike was a HUGE break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I never said that there SHOULDN'T, be a retcon or that we shouldn't stretch the fluff. I'd have no problem actually if we got a jetbike squad. I would just hope it would be cost effective and useful. GW continuously has no problem breaking it, and wouldn't be surprised if they did it again. For someone who may have only played 4th edition, I could understand why it may not seem like such a stretch. However for someone who has palmed since 2nd edition or even 1st(Rogue Trader), just getting the one MotRW jetbike was a HUGE break. Yes, well, as shabbadoo mentioned above back in RT days there were Imperial Jetbikes not only for Marines but for IG as well (although I myself got into the hobby in 2nd ed I recall the minatures in question). These dissappeared in 2nd & 3rd with no good reason given. So not only was it a retcon but not a very good one at that. They re-appeared in the 4th as a DA-only toy but fluff wise it was a marginal thing - cetrtainly not huge. I don't beleive jetbikes or lack thereof would materially affect the people's perception of DAs no more than the Stormraven changed people's perception on BAs. Just another piece of unique or Chapter-specific hardware... No biggie. Besides current fluff implies that there are more than one jetbikes anyway... How many more is unclear - one might assume less than 10 but what if they are actually 30 split among all Unforgiven? They'll still remain pretty unique but would allow for small unitis on the table top. Really this cannot be a HUGE departure from anything... If on the other hand they go and make it as common for the DAs as say a rhino then yes, that'll be a bigger discrepancy compared to 4th ed fluff. But not RT fluff :lol:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I'm sorry but nowhere does it mention that they took IG's lunch money! Unless you can point a source, I say lunch money stayed in Imperial Guardmen pockets! That's the official lore :) ! Or the destruction derby :lol: But in all seriousness,the fluff indicates that the tech to properly manufacture such machines has been lost.As it does to a lot other of things in the imperium that phase out at times.Mole guns?They had phased out too,but now space marines have them again in the form of the thunder fire cannons... But thats a retcon:Because at a time there was no mention in the fluff that those things existed at all.As if the 40k universe had no such things.And now they appear out of a sudden without a fluff explanation as to how.THATS a retcon. Stormraven gunships are a retcon.Sternguard and vanguard formations are a retcon.Yet i see nobody caring. The jetbikes are a different thing.Nobody sais that they never existed.The fluff told us that they cant be/dont to manufacture them.Both because the technology was lost and because they consider it a heresy.Thats forwarding the fluff not retconing even if it means loss of equipment there is a reason behind it. The fact that the DA have some is not a contradiction.Has anyone given an account of what their armories contain?No,the only thing that we know of is that they keep even ancient equipment functional.So saying that they either rediscovered the technology or found something to fill the gaps of knowledge and make some of them serviceable is progressing the fluff not retcon.By the same account we can say that they saved some jetbikes.The DA are fancy of old tech.Threre is even a whole chapter that fluff says they preserve all the ancient equipment of the legion.How do you know that the consecrators didnt do just that? "There are only a few jetbikes left among the Unforgiven." Scratch that. " No i am not scratching that.Thats what the codex fluff sais.If i want to remain true to the fluff i accept the possibility and not create my own fluff. If i want such a thing i wont play DA but my own chapter with my own fandex. from every single one of the 1,000+ Chapters Just as the other 1000 chapters didnt know how to mount plasma cannons on their dreads or dual weapons of the same type? BTW there were only 18 legions during the heresy not 1000 chapters,since you are an old school player you ought to remember that right? Also remember that there was no account given on what each chapter did with this kind of equipment.They might have trashed it.THey might have dissembled the parts and used them for something else.Noone knows.And just because noone knows almost every reason can be justifiable AND IS NOT A RETCON.Retcon is when established fluff is removed without explanation as if never existed example:There is no deathwing,the DA first company was never bonewhite in colour and never anything special.Never all the 1st co. marines were armed in termy armor.THATS A RETCON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zincite Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Its presented quite in the same manner as you describe just read the little box about the jetbike! Sorry, I meant, as in if a certain codex writer wrote this new Jebike unit itself that way. Sammy's Jetbike is fine, I like it and wasn't bashing that fluff. More bashing the fluff-to-be, in case He Who Shall Not Be Named gets his hands on the codex.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I've never truly understood why jetbike technology wasn't in use by the Imperium when they clearly possess the same or similar tech with other vehicles. I mean a landspeeder is just a bigger version of the bike and every ship that enters an atmopshere most possess some sort of anti-grav drive. So fluff wise I wouldn't have an issue if the unforgiven chapters had some small supply of jetbikes. Perhaps as a command squad or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 "There are only a few jetbikes left among the Unforgiven." Scratch that. " No i am not scratching that.Thats what the codex fluff sais.If i want to remain true to the fluff i accept the possibility and not create my own fluff. If i want such a thing i wont play DA but my own chapter with my own fandex. I think you missed the point there, thought, granted, it could have been more clear. That comment refers to a possible jet bike unit(s) in Codex: DA 6E, not anything else. That would, of course, be a retconn too. Accept the possibility that the next C: DA might retconn in/out any number of things. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 "There are only a few jetbikes left among the Unforgiven." Scratch that. " No i am not scratching that.Thats what the codex fluff sais.If i want to remain true to the fluff i accept the possibility and not create my own fluff. If i want such a thing i wont play DA but my own chapter with my own fandex. I think you missed the point there, thought, granted, it could have been more clear. That comment refers to a possible jet bike unit(s) in Codex: DA 6E, not anything else. That would, of course, be a retconn too. Accept the possibility that the next C: DA might retconn in/out any number of things. :) As i said it wont be a retconn it will be fluff progress... The possibility for retconning is a huge threat looming on the horizon always.But now we are discussing jetbikes. Zincite:Thats my horror too.I really dont want to see darkangels missiles of uber darkangel killy blasts.With the ultimate robes of power and suddenly the watchers dropping their robes and prove to be squats!But with that one around you never know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zincite Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I've never truly understood why jetbike technology wasn't in use by the Imperium when they clearly possess the same or similar tech with other vehicles. I mean a landspeeder is just a bigger version of the bike and every ship that enters an atmopshere most possess some sort of anti-grav drive. It could be several things. It could be a matter of size. They can't compress the Anti-grav plates of the Land Speeder far enough to make it usable on a Jetbike anymore. Land Speeders themselves are made of rare materials IIRC, so it's possible they needed other, even more rare, materials to build Jetbikes that have now run out. To quote Lexicanum: "Land Speeders were also originally used by the Imperial Guard, but since then the plasma and anti-gravity technologies required to use them have become increasingly rare and hard to maintain. Only extremely resource rich planets like Ryza or organisations such as the Space Marines can afford to create them." Also, it could be the STC is lost. The Adech are desperately fumbling under their desks to find the blueprints whilst the Dark Angels Master of the Forge shouts at them "Only losers need instructions!". @Brother Immolator You scare me with your talk of Robes of Power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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