My feeble attempts at discussing the next Chaos Codex at GD

[Mr. Sandbot]

Only thing I would have stressed is that Chaos = Bad Guys, not Chaos = Marines with Random abilities and effects...

 

"Let no good deed go unpunished.

Let no evil deed go unrewarded."

 

I think this quote alone made me sick of the "we're 2D bad guys" angle.

[Brother Nihm]

Only thing I would have stressed is that Chaos = Bad Guys, not Chaos = Marines with Random abilities and effects...

Heh!

 

To quote the ignorant,

 

But it is CHAOS and Chaos is random!

 

 

 

 

 

;)

[darth_giles]

To quote the ignorant,

 

But it is CHAOS and Chaos is random!

You have no idea how many times I heard that quoted by non-Chaos players after the release of the 3.5 codex. "Lolwhut? No randomness? But then its not chaos because chaos is random, and those daemons and possessed are too powarful! Nerfplz!"

[LPetersson]

To quote the ignorant,

But it is CHAOS and Chaos is random!

:)

 

I wish I could remember which book it was, but there was a Black Library book where a loyalist (I think marine, but it could be a guardsman) mused that ironically, Chaos is not chaotic at all, but always has a plan...

[Dammeron]

All I can say is: it better be damn good, and I don't just mean in terms of technical capability (the current codex is functional enough, in its own myopic way). Soul and substance; that's what'll sell.

[KingDeath]

Meh, i am not a great fan of Kelly. His spacewolves codex is, together with Ward's Grey Knights book, a serious contender for the worst fluff award and his Eldar book suffers from a truly weak internal balance ( half of the aspect warriors are crap to begin with ).

[the jeske]

but the army he wants and plays is always very good , as eldar goes at least.

[darth_giles]

Half the aspect warriors were crap to begin with anyway; Shining Spears were the least-used unit you could find because nobody ever used them. Ditto for Dire Avengers; they weren't quite as sucky as Shining Spears but came very dang close. The only two I'd ever see with any regularity were Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions. Reapers, Warp Spiders, and Fire Dragons were questionable at best, although the Spiders got buffed with the 4th Edition rules making rapid fire weapons able to move and double-tap.

 

Course, he also brought Harlequins back from Citadel Journal hell, so he's got that much in his favor.

[Bearingtheword]

Only thing I would have stressed is that Chaos = Bad Guys, not Chaos = Marines with Random abilities and effects...

Heh!

 

To quote the ignorant,

 

But it is CHAOS and Chaos is random!

 

 

 

 

 

B)

 

 

Nihm? Mind if I sig that? That is classic!!!

[Maleficum]

Thanks for the story, firestorm40k. It was heartening to hear, as I swore that my last game would be the first and only with the current Chaos 'dex. I played against a blood angels player, that told me he had run 2xSlaneesh DP w/lash and khorne berzerkers for troops. (yes, I know people run their own armies, and tournament players run different from us, but in the 3.5 codex that wouldn't have been possible.)

 

I'm uncomfortable enough that the codex allows such "unfluffy" army/warband*-selections, it's even worse that it would seem that the "unfluffy" lists are requrired to be "competetive".

 

 

Looking at the current new codexes I'm pretty sure things will be good when the new Chaos Codex(es?) come out to play!

[Hytanthas]

Part of me would be okay if Matt Ward wrote the dex for one reason: It would be powerful (unless he decides to be a bad person and nerf the dex even more to feed his Ulramarines fetish and love addiction to smurfs).

 

But in the other hand Grey Knights hurt my brain when I tried to read it.

 

Phil Kelly would be an okay choice due to the fact that he had a hand in the 3.5 dex. Hopefully he goes for a renascence with the 5th/6th edition dex.

[Brother Nihm]

Only thing I would have stressed is that Chaos = Bad Guys, not Chaos = Marines with Random abilities and effects...

Heh!

 

To quote the ignorant,

 

But it is CHAOS and Chaos is random!

 

 

 

 

 

:P

 

 

Nihm? Mind if I sig that? That is classic!!!

Go ahead. :)

[Dravenguild]

I think you guys may have jumped a head of yourselves, He said that Matt and Jervis wouldn't be working on it. You shouldn't be quick to assume that it will be Phil writing it, after all there is a fourth.

 

A man that is responsible for the travesties known as the Imperial Guard and Tyranid codices.

 

It could be Cruddace, and at that point I will weep for the fallen.

[firestorm40k]

I think you guys may have jumped a head of yourselves, He said that Matt and Jervis wouldn't be working on it. You shouldn't be quick to assume that it will be Phil writing it, after all there is a fourth.

Well, like I said, it's just the way he started looking around for someone else when he said 'I'm probably not the best person to speak to'. The only other developer there was Phil Kelly. Perhaps I'm adding 2 + 2 and getting 5, but I can't help feel that it's a good sign Mr Kelly IS going to be involved somehow...

 

Also, I like the Guard codex :)

[greatcrusade08]

Part of me would be okay if Matt Ward wrote the dex for one reason: It would be powerful (unless he decides to be a bad person and nerf the dex even more to feed his Ulramarines fetish and love addiction to smurfs).

 

i wish people would back off the whole ultra-hate nonsense, the damn book was written over 3 years ago and people are still attacking the ultramarines.

Matt Ward doesnt love ultramarines, he doesnt even play them, hes a salamanders player.. he wrote a book according to his brief that the ultraamrines are a pinnacle/epitome of space marines in general, and half the nonsense about "smurf love" comes from an OTT article he wrote in WD in order to boost sales.

in comparison C:SM is now in itself a pretty weak dex when compared to the likes of C:BA, C:Sw and C:GK so its not like he made them uber powerful to get his daily fix.

 

i just wish people would stop trowing mud without thought of where it lands, that really bothers me.

 

and FYI its ultramarines not smurfs, they are little blue midgets under the yolk of some wizard named gargamel, they ARE NOT space marines

[the jeske]

the codex is gargamel.

[greatcrusade08]

the codex is gargamel.

 

that makes no sense, not that i expected any else tbh

[darth_giles]

the codex is gargamel.

... hunh?

[Brother Nihm]

I believe that it is a tongue-in-cheek reference to that if Ultramarines were smurfs, our 'dex would be Gargamel.

Or it could be a reference to our 'dex being a crooked old thing with no real power. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I must admit I chuckled when I saw "the codex is gargamel" comment. Because while the fluff was mangled to begin with, on the tabletop - it really is a sad old thing already, and with only 4 years behind it. Imho.

[Krakev]

Does seem strange that the only people I see using the SM 'dex are those who are using Chaos Legions as 'Loyalist' or 'Pre-Heresy' forces.

 

The next 'dex is bound to be better than the last one that was released, after all, if it wasn't beneficial to the results of your games there would be no incentive to update to the latest 'dex and army being released...

 

GW is a profitable company, they aren't going to make changes or include fluff that isn't there with the sole intention of trying to part you from your hard earned cash!

 

Oh, and... I quite like the current Tyranid 'dex, it allows for much more varied army selections, the 4th Ed. gave way too many options to make rank and file troops game winners, and Carnifexes were way, way, way too good with certain biomorphs.

[greatcrusade08]

i personally see the nid and chaos dex in the same light tbh, lots of people reckon they are rubbish, but i think they are rather good.

chaos for example can be reasonably compettive at most levels, just becuase they lack top tier builds doesnt make it a rubbish dex, infact im really starting to dislike top tier lists anyway

[Brother Nihm]

just becuase they lack top tier builds doesnt make it a rubbish dex

Having been on the receiving end of many a Draigo-Wing, Leafblower, PlasmaGuard, DE Venom, SW MSU and BA Razor spam lists recently I respectfully disagree. They aren't Tau, Orks or 'Crons, but they are in no way 'good' imho. If anything I'd say they are slightly below decent when compared to the newer books.

 

Then there's the issue of fluff, I fielded my non-optimized fluff list I wouldn't even place in today's 40K scene, I've tried. So I am forced to go for efficiency over fluff, finetuning and tweakingwhat I can, making lists that will do great against the majority of my opponents, only to find myself severely limited even in that regard due to the number of downright broken/crappy units we have in our book.

 

 

As for Tyranids,

You cannot build a CC focussed army, because:

 

-You have very few options to de-mech your opponent and they are almost all in the Elite Slots option, competing with Yrmgarls etc.

-You have no frags outside of the Carni (spines), which is an overcasted shadow of its former self.

-You have no access to power weapons on cheap non MC units. T4 multi-wound models with a 4+ save that move 6" + run? heh..

-No transport options outside of pods

-No option to pod a Prime

-The Trygon tunnel and Lictor pheromone rules are a joke.

-Stealer shock is a one-trick pony.

-Multi-charged Tervigons that take No Retreat wounds makes bug players cry tears of frustration. While a good player can try to prevent it with careful movement/bubble wrapping it doesn't offer full protection against this stupid rule.

 

That forces you to rely on shooting to plug those horrible gaps, which we all know, the 'Nids don't really have that much of and most of it isn't that reliable vs Mech & armour (e.g. Venom Cannons, Warp Lances and Rupture Cannons), especially not if there is a Hood - in the case of Warp Lance.

 

The current 'Nid book is all about synergy (Venomthropes, Tervigons, horma/garg screens etc), but the book's weaknesses are so obvious and so easy to exploit that I am truly not bothered in any way whenever I learn that I am about to face bugs. Now this may sound arrogant but when I do, I find myself thinking: yes! easy win.

I haven't been proven wrong yet, though I would love it be.

 

The lists and their many variants which I mentioned earlier on the other hand. They bother me, greatly.

 

 

 

 

This bitter old man will go back into his dark corner now. ;)

 

*tips hat*

[Sangneur]

I think you guys may have jumped a head of yourselves, He said that Matt and Jervis wouldn't be working on it. You shouldn't be quick to assume that it will be Phil writing it, after all there is a fourth.

 

A man that is responsible for the travesties known as the Imperial Guard and Tyranid codices.

 

It could be Cruddace, and at that point I will weep for the fallen.

 

 

You're right, it is a bit quick to assume such a thing. But what matters to me is that Ward will not be writing the book, and he's the only writer I dislike! Furthermore, I'm not sure if any of you guys frequent warseer (can't say I blame you if you don't. >.>) but I saw a scan of a letter from GW a while ago. The poster claimed he had sent a letter complaining about the current chaos codex, along with our usual points and had received a response. The letter said that they planned to move in another direction with chaos next time and was, get this, SIGNED by Phil Kelly! That alone is enough to make me believe Phil is on it.

 

Ward may write the space marines, and Cruddance usually writes lesser armies, but chaos is not a lesser army, and it is not a marine army! Chaos is THE antagonist and has what I would call the best potential for sales. If GW has any brains it will put Kelly on the book.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

i just wish people would stop trowing mud without thought of where it lands, that really bothers me.

 

and FYI its ultramarines not smurfs, they are little blue midgets under the yolk of some wizard named gargamel, they ARE NOT space marines

 

Who says we aren't aiming? :P

 

the codex is gargamel.

I believe that it is a tongue-in-cheek reference to that if Ultramarines were smurfs, our 'dex would be Gargamel.

Or it could be a reference to our 'dex being a crooked old thing with no real power. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I must admit I chuckled when I saw "the codex is gargamel" comment. Because while the fluff was mangled to begin with, on the tabletop - it really is a sad old thing already, and with only 4 years behind it. Imho.

 

Well I thought the jeske was actually calling The Codex [as collated by Roboute] Gargamel, and so the story goes like this:

The Ultramarines are the little blue midgets.

The yoke that those little blue midgets are under, according to GC08, is Gargamel.

The Ultramarines, being likened to Smurfs, are under the bondage to their own 'wizard' which in this case is The Codex.

Therefore, The Codex is Gargamel.

 

Now I don't know if that is what the jeske meant, but how I understood it made me lol. Then I went upstairs to watch Space Marine and some head shots being dished out by the Stalker bolter. And then I lol'ed again.

Then I came downstairs, and lol'ed. Then I read GC08 and the jeske's comments again, and lol'ed some more.

 

All in all, a very productive thread for me :lol:

 

+++

 

I think people will be using the next C:CSM dex for not-Chaos armies. Whilst that might be hypocrisy considering that Chaos players got ripped for daring to dream about count-as'ing due to the Gav dex, perhaps the thinking was just a little too ahead of its time for some?

 

The first time an idea goes mainstream, it can get shot down. But persistence can see a favourable outcome that can be a 180º change.

 

I don't really see the issue with count-as, but I know some, such as GC08, are against powa! gaming, which count-as can certainly be used for.

 

Being a younger brother, I always played with my brother's Marines, beating those pesky bad guys [usually Xenos, but sometimes Guard too] as I played against myself. I have been playing count-as since Rogue Trader. My brother's Marines were whoever I wanted them to be, Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Chaos, etc. I am surprised that my fellow hobbyists, some two decades after me doing it as a normal in imagination little boy, still cannot or will not grasp it. I hardly think I am some super-imaginative chap, just a normal gamer who likes Fantasy and Science Fiction.

 

It seemed silly to us, back around 1990 to have:

One Ultramarine force, painted as per Codex instructions

One Blood Angels, etc.

One Dark Angels, etc.

One Space Wolves, etc.

One Chaos Marines, etc.

 

And it still seems silly today.

 

It seemed silly GW is already compelling us to play as Marines anyway. Is it really a big loss if, say, my Ragnar's Company Space Wolves fight your Belial-led Dark Angels for the umpteenth time, compared to more generic Marines versus Marines action?

 

Also, none of the Codex's actually nail it, for me, in terms of what Marines are anyway. In C:SM, the line troopers are actually fairly poor in mêlée, whereas in C:SW, the heroic Hammernators are way too expensive to even get any game time. But the flexibility of Wolf Guard and their loadouts is much more realistic than the boring Storm Bolter and Power fist that Terminators get lumped with.

BA Assault Marines, with Furious Charge, are much more realistic for all assault Marines, who, at present, are only as competent in combat as the all-comers Grey Hunter. Likewise, even the jaded-C:CSM has neat Terminators and Havocs/Chosen getting around with a plethora of special weapons, which is much more credible in, say CityFight, than a squad of Devs would be.

 

So I can see, even for fluff reasons, and not just wanting ultra-mega-powa! that guys switch between Codices.

It is like you have to play Apoc to get a proper list together.

 

People, using count as, are merely coming to the logical conclusion that GW has woven into their rules-writing and fluff anyway. They are all called Marines, because they all are only Marines.

 

That is what I think, anyway :)

 

+++

 

People's objections to count-as is often to do with powa! gaming. The problem is, GW is a ponderous organisation and an uneven one at that. If GW only changed editions once all the Dex's [adhering to only one game design philosophy] had been completed, the powa! gap between them would be lower.

 

Fluffy should be powerful. If GW wants Tacs to be a common choice, they shouldn't be a "cringe" choice. People are only exploiting the loopholes that GW itself has created. That is human nature.

 

But anyway, I digress :)

[Hellios]

I've got to side with Nihm... Many chaos units are decent but very few get anywhere near top tier and then you are very restricted as to what you can take. The main complaint about the chaos codex isn't the power level although it is starting to fall behind a bit now but the choice... Some units are not viable while others are no brainers... The biggest issue is if you try and make a fluff driven list based on say a legion... A 1kson list has no chance of being anywhere near competitive.

 

As for the nids I think it isn't as bad as some people make it out... They just miss some of the stuff from the old codex.... While a lot of the things are really cool and a list with good synergy can be more dangerous than it looks on paper as Nihm has mentioned their are some really bad design 'mistakes' in my opinion. Although I might not agree with all of Nihms problems.

 

Lets take the Zoanthrope as an example of a unit. Many nid players use this as their tank buster... However have you realised how bad it is? S10 lance is great but... You need to get close enough (Depending on the list this might or might not be a problem.), then I take my psychic test (It is a psychic power right?) which again isn't that bad... unless a librarian or Rune priest or some other nonsense about. Then you need to hit... pretty standard and then roll for the pen and damage which is better than most.

 

Now this can be an issue against fast armies that can stop your psychic powers but luckily armies like the Eldar often have weaker armour and that is where Hive Guard come in... But damn the Elite slots have some hard competition. Make Death leaper an upgrade for a lictor unit at the very least please.

 

 

Oh I also read Jeske's comment like MW and found it amusing.