the jeske Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 its easy to check stuff . for example . People dont use [incoming but I do] raptors , because they are overcosted csm without a rhino . IF they had hit and run or some other rule[-1Ld on charge for opponent to take one idea from my head] we could at least argue their viabilty [without giving us a special that makes them troops that is] . dakka pred . bad ? yes. But not because tanks as support are generaly bad[unless they are GK ones and laugh at stun locking] . they cost more then loyalist ones without the cool rules or weapons [and even loyalists dont use them . rifle man are better] . But the real problem is that hvy support are our only good support slots . neither chosen , nor bikes/raptors are reliable enough . this means if the list is suppose work we have to take the best of the best. which ends with oblits everywhere . Its like the old WH dex . it doesnt matter what retributors do , everyone will take 3xexorcists. bikes . puting aside the whole "no good HQ to support them thing" . what are they suppose to do ? they cant hth [cost too much , have to be supported by the weaker HQs , not better at killing then our other units ] , anti tank can be done better[oblits] or cheaper[termicid] with less chance of countering. If gav was cutting on rules and making it more simple why didnt he give build in options for those units so people actualy take them ? But then again when the designer tell you "we didnt knew people will play with two[demon princes]" :D what is there to talk about . Surly not the state of desing abilty at that time . possessed . d6 on abilties .... when half of them makes them worse then zerkers at bigger cost ......the roll of 1 means no rule . so only 5-6 means anything . awesome ... not. pre build possessed [pick 1-2 abilities out of list] d3roll when all rules are good and powerful . maybe people would use them for death stars or something . Right now you cant even do that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 *sigh* Yes yes yes, we know lash DPs, PMs, oblits and the rest are the way to go for the über-ultra-waac-competetive people. But, seriously, to play such a list is just no fun...and to "build" it? Definitely no fun at all... Raptors: Yes, raptors can't compare of the reliability of the troop choices, but you forget one thing...they are cheap! Two meltas in a minimum squad is 120p, that is 15 points more than a termicide unit, sure, but they gain a lot of mobility with that and can zoom around popping tanks...no point in having my termicide unit DS in after that LR has released it's contents really... Dakka pred: Yes yes, we know it's cheaper in the marine dex, though that has nothing to do with the internal balance of OUR codex... Bikes: they really are bad at cc, though you forgot to mention they replace their cc wep with the special weapon so they are severely worse at cc than the rest... Also I think you are really overestimating the possessed...half of the options??? For their points cost and what they do 5/6 of the rolls make them severely overcosted, and the last one just makes them slightly overcosted... A little on topic again, thanx for having the courage firestorm! Interesting info there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Raptors: Yes, raptors can't compare of the reliability of the troop choices, but you forget one thing...they are cheap! Two meltas in a minimum squad is 120p, that is 15 points more than a termicide unit, sure, but they gain a lot of mobility with that and can zoom around popping tanks...no point in having my termicide unit DS in after that LR has released it's contents really... i like raptors myself, they are just like C:SM assault marines, yet we can take meltas and a mark of nurgle (or whatever your own preference).. makes them a whole lot more versatile and dangeous than thier loyalist counterparts IMO.. ive never been one to run 2DP is not fluffy at all, however a raptor and DP nurgle combo definately keeps the heat off your rhinos Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Two meltas in a minimum squad is 120p termicid. cant be countered same time in range . 105pts. ergo raptors not cheap. and termicid gets 3 melta shots vs raptors too. both units will probably die when in range in your opponents turn . the surviabilty of 3 terminators vs 5 meq dudes is comperable . Dakka pred: Yes yes, we know it's cheaper in the marine dex, though that has nothing to do with the internal balance of OUR codex... yes it does. If other armies that have more options for long range support [LS tempests, termis with cyclons . razor backs , rifle man , MM drop dreads etc etc] still dont use the same preds while they cost less . then it means that for us they are even worse . So in fact it is all about the balance of our dex as you say it . A BA can ponder the viabilty of 2x5 RL devs vs 2 preds with las sponsons +twin AC . A sm player can think about puting his high str anti tank in to MM attack bikes and/or las/plas razors while dakka preds [instead of the usual rifle man] do the anti rhino job[because for example he wants those extra hvy bolter shots against horde or DE ] . We can not do that . It is simple if something is in the hvy slot and is not better at shoting then oblits , doesnt support a more hth build being a defiler or is not a LR for a LR rush then it is not viable . When it also costs more then loyalist versions of the same gear it is even worse. however a raptor and DP nurgle combo definately keeps the heat off your rhinos how . top tier armies already have to deal with scoring [aka more] BA RAS which are FnP and they run mefiston and/or sengiunor . If top tier armies can deal with those , how will they have problems with a single raptor unit . Also what units are not taken to fit in the IoN raptors ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zincite Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 ...and to "build" it? Definitely no fun at all... This is why I like the Tyranid codex. Sure, it might not be awesome, but at least you have a choice of what you take. Rather than having to take X unit because A, B, C, D,... Y, Z units are rubbish. The info was interesting. And just as we were moaning there was no rumours from Games Day. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 top tier armies sorry mate, once i saw this the rest turned into white noise.. cant argue/discuss anything with a guy stuck on "top tier" armies.. the idea is nonsense and totally disregards the idea of non tournament games games dont have to be hyper competative with every model mathhammered to death to squeeze the most from your army and table your mates.. take the units you think are cool and make them work. i stand by my original assesment, which is raptors make a good tag team for the daemon prince (and i have run it and it works) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muadib02 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Im with greatcrusade on this....as it were I keep laughing when people compare the limited options of the Chaos codex from 4th ed, to the options available in 5th ed books. Different design philosophy, youll get an update eventually....I know it sucks, I played DE and Grey Knights for years before both came out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingDeath Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 top tier armies sorry mate, once i saw this the rest turned into white noise.. cant argue/discuss anything with a guy stuck on "top tier" armies.. the idea is nonsense and totally disregards the idea of non tournament games games dont have to be hyper competative with every model mathhammered to death to squeeze the most from your army and table your mates.. take the units you think are cool and make them work. i stand by my original assesment, which is raptors make a good tag team for the daemon prince (and i have run it and it works) If you put a weak codex ( like the chaos one ) against a strong one then, assuming all other considerations ( like both oponents use so called "fun" lists, both players are equaly capable and both players have an equal amount of luck ) then the weak codex will lose simply by having weaker unit choices. So sorry, you are wrong. The relative strenght of a codex has to be considered even if the game itself isn't competative. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Nice to hear. :lol: Really, I'm mostly shocked that Ward was there, given the general feelings towards him in the community. I think he's the worst thing that's ever happened to GW's IP, but he gets points for showing up. As many have said, his fluff sucks, but the man makes a pretty good book, and a nasty set of rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 If you put a weak codex ( like the chaos one ) against a strong one then, assuming all other considerations ( like both oponents use so called "fun" lists, both players are equaly capable and both players have an equal amount of luck ) then the weak codex will lose simply by having weaker unit choices. So sorry, you are wrong. The relative strenght of a codex has to be considered even if the game itself isn't competative. see i dont agree that the chaos dex is weak, ive had alot of success against space marines, blood angels and dark eldar with my chaos army, granted i dont do wel against SW or GK, but then the only chaps that run those armies run top tier competative lists. Chaos isnt inherantly weaker than space marines IMO, some differences that can make a difference, but not always Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingDeath Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 If you put a weak codex ( like the chaos one ) against a strong one then, assuming all other considerations ( like both oponents use so called "fun" lists, both players are equaly capable and both players have an equal amount of luck ) then the weak codex will lose simply by having weaker unit choices. So sorry, you are wrong. The relative strenght of a codex has to be considered even if the game itself isn't competative. see i dont agree that the chaos dex is weak, ive had alot of success against space marines, blood angels and dark eldar with my chaos army, granted i dont do wel against SW or GK, but then the only chaps that run those armies run top tier competative lists. Chaos isnt inherantly weaker than space marines IMO, some differences that can make a difference, but not always Well, i have to disagree here. Chaos is inherently weaker than all 5. edition books. Most chaos choices are either overcosted ( Obliterators, Havocs, Raptors, most icons, Predators, Greater Daemon just to name a few ) or are plain bad ( Spawn, Posessed, lesser daemons... ). In fact i would state that there are only 4 or 5 "good" choices in the current dex ( greater daemon with warptime, plaque marines, the obligatory obliterators, terminators and rhinos ). Even those aren't all that hot if you compare them to what other books have. Sadly it is downright impossible to create a good balanced army with the current codex which makes it a bad codex, even against armies which aren't 100% optimised ( because these either have more points to play with or have better base units ). That you have alot of success with your chaos army is great and i am glad for you but sadly this changes nothing about the "hard" ( aka, mathhammered ) facts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 id agree that the dex needs an update and does suffer from a lack of variety (in that some units are just rubbish).. and to a point yes i agree the current chaos dex IS marginally weaker than most 5th ed dexes.. but that doesnt make it a weak dex.. since all our cult troops are fearless and have pretty good options, and they fact they are unique, i dont think we can draw driect comparisons on what is best/better with other dexes.. we do have some good tools in our dex.. also whether or not our dex could be consdiered weaker than most 5th ed dexes has no bearing on any comparisons with "top tier" lists, from which this discussion has spawned. only two or three dexes are really "top tier" dexes IMO.. in generalist terms your playing in your LGS against SM, BA, SW, DE, eldar, tau, necrons, orks nid etc.. and chaos are more than capable of competing against generic lists from these armies i agree GK is anathema to us, but you dont have to play those armies if you dont want to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 one thing crusade . your forgetting one important thing . cult troops are an ok option for BL players . What if someone played 1ksons or EC or any of the undivided legions ? how would you feel if vulkan builds were the only playable ones and every other combination of units fluffy or not was sub par or border line unplayable ? the chaos dex is like the sm dex . its not a one chapter codex it is a book for all the chaos legions [which all are different] and renegades[which I dont care about , but still they do exist] . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 one thing crusade . your forgetting one important thing . cult troops are an ok option for BL players . What if someone played 1ksons or EC or any of the undivided legions ? undivided have prolems with no fearless or ATSKNF, but they are cheaper than tac marines and have the extra ccw.. bit of a trade off. but arent 1ksons and noise marines cult troops, do they not have fearless? how would you feel if vulkan builds were the only playable ones and every other combination of units fluffy or not was sub par or border line unplayable ? exxageration much? i believe ive already added the lack of variety as a caveat, but im not sure how it makes a codex or army "weak".. one could argue boring, but ive not found that with chaos tbh i run my army as either khorne or nurglez, so i cant speak for 1ksons or EC, but ive found them to be very enjoyable to play, each cult troop is unique so lack of variety for each 'god' isnt a huge worry becuase the PMs play incredibly different to zerks who are very different to 1ksons the chaos dex is like the sm dex . its not a one chapter codex it is a book for all the chaos legions [which all are different] and renegades[which I dont care about , but still they do exist] . i fail to see your point? if the argument is that the codex fails to cater for each legion id agree, and thats why we all want a new updated codex, chaos isnt reprisented very well at the moment, but again it doesnt make it a "weak" dex we all want to see the new legions book come out and have lots of new options for each "god/legion". it would make me weak at the knees to get my hands on it. however devils advocate here (and we know they are planning something like it) they could just update the current dex, bring points, rules, wargear, invs etc into line with current codices and it would be a competative codex again As it stands the chaos dex may not be top tier, but is currently capable of holding its own against the vast majority of LGS armies.. nd tbh aslong as ive got my theme to work to then im fine with that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 the chaos legions [which all are different] and renegades[which I dont care about , but still they do exist] . This gave me a good laugh B) The Jeske is simply trying to point out how our codex sucks for playing competitively. I have experienced this many times and there's no doubt in my mind he's correct. Is this the right place to discuss it though? Pretty sure we have plenty of threads of all different titles all debating about our current dex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 one thing crusade . your forgetting one important thing . cult troops are an ok option for BL players . What if someone played 1ksons or EC or any of the undivided legions ? All Legions are now the Black Legion. I plan on taking at least one unit of Thousand Sons and maybe a big Noise Marine gunline at some point for my Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 top tier armies sorry mate, once i saw this the rest turned into white noise.. cant argue/discuss anything with a guy stuck on "top tier" armies.. the idea is nonsense and totally disregards the idea of non tournament games games dont have to be hyper competative with every model mathhammered to death to squeeze the most from your army and table your mates.. take the units you think are cool and make them work. i stand by my original assesment, which is raptors make a good tag team for the daemon prince (and i have run it and it works) Well if a game is friendly and not hyper competitive then the codex is irrelevant because I can just agree with the other guy to use an updated 3.5 dex or a number of fan dexs that are better in every way when it comes to the rules... The units are more interesting, the units have more choice, you can make more viable lists as the internal balance is much better... I could make a 1kson list and go to the Throne of Skulls and put up one hell of fight... Not saying the list (or my ability as a general) is good enough to win but I would do far better than I would with the joke of a 1kson list I'm forced to play with now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkapostle222 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 You may find Matt Ward’s response more interesting: he basically said blatantly that he was not going to be working on Chaos. Yes, that’s right, you can all breathe a sigh of relief! ;) ;) Then, more interestingly, he looked around for the other member of the team at Games Day, who was absent every time I went to the developers’ area, but would have liked to speak to – a certain Mr Phil Kelly. Now, (cue wild speculation) judging by this, I got the strong impression that Phil Kelly is likely to be involved in the development – perhaps even writing it? Oh thank the gods, could you imagine it? "And though the Chaos Marines turned from the Emperor they still hold Guilliman to be their SPIRITUAL LIEGE and seek to emulate the greatest of their enemies, the Ultramarines." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muadib02 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 This is quite possibly the greatest thing I have ever heard on this forum! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hytanthas Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 "And though the Chaos Marines turned from the Emperor they still hold Guilliman to be their SPIRITUAL LIEGE and seek to emulate the greatest of their enemies, the Ultramarines." Lol. Blue Chaos Marines. can you imagine the wrath of the fans? It would be the like the siege on Terra for the Emperors sake. GW would be on life support after that. lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 jeske...no, you can't really compare things in different codexes like that. As you yourself said there are other options in the loyalist codexes, and the heavy slots aren't compulsory, you don't have to take three! You can't compare it slot for slot to our codex... ...and besides, if I was playing competitively, I wouldn't be playing CSM at all(renegade IG ftw)...though I mostly win anyway, even against 5th ed armys... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malthe Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I think many people attributes too much value to list design, as opposed to strategic (gameplay) talent. You can't compare two lists and solely based on that determine which one would win a game. It depends on the players firstly, the list sencondly (and luck thirdly...). But a new dex (with better fluff!) would be cool :) Seriously, there are tons of great Chaos fluff, why isn't any of it in the codex?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2890958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I think many people attributes too much value to list design, as opposed to strategic (gameplay) talent.You can't compare two lists and solely based on that determine which one would win a game. It depends on the players firstly, the list sencondly (and luck thirdly...). But a new dex (with better fluff!) would be cool :D Seriously, there are tons of great Chaos fluff, why isn't any of it in the codex?? I will write you two lists... I will give you one... I won't even think about how I'll play... I will win. Yes player skill matters a good golf player can win with a handicap because he is better... but give the handicap to one of two players who are at the same level and 8 out of 10 games the one without the handicap will win. Yes luck also matters but as something we control and something that people often build list to minimise there is no real point in bringing it in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2891026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 jeske...no, you can't really compare things in different codexes like that. As you yourself said there are other options in the loyalist codexes, and the heavy slots aren't compulsory, you don't have to take three!If you read his post history, Jeske writes like 3x 3 Oblits is a requirement for any Chaos army. I think many people attributes too much value to list design, as opposed to strategic (gameplay) talent.You can't compare two lists and solely based on that determine which one would win a game. It depends on the players firstly, the list sencondly (and luck thirdly...). Mathhammer doesn't take skill into account. Only numbers. Kinda like the economists who are saying the US depression (yes, it is a depression no matter what the news media says) is over; they're only looking at the big businesses' financials and not at how many people are still unemployed or the business cultures that got them there in the first place. But a new dex (with better fluff!) would be cool :D Seriously, there are tons of great Chaos fluff, why isn't any of it in the codex?? Honestly, so much of the fluff has outright changed that we probably do need a summary in the new codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2891028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoWolf Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I have to agree with GC08. While our codex is old, and there are options that were never thought out to begin with (FA spawn with slow and purposeful? Really GW?) our codex can still be fun. The problem is the discussion is almost literally going across two different points. You can't argue Tourney play vs. Fun games. You just can't. While I am not in anyway going after you on this, I have to stand against Jeske. You are sounding like a broken record. I agree with some of your points but you always say that there is only ONE list to rule them all. This just isn't true. If you are playing for fun, with absolutely no thought given to math or HAVING to win, then there are quite a few choices. Soo many people that I play against will gear their list a certain way once they hear that I am bringing CSM to a game it isn't funny. The 2xDP 9xOblits will evaporate against the amount of lascannons that I always seem to face off against. They may not try to do so, but given how many people do it, the 2xDP is almost a given when you hear CSM. I have soo much CSM models that I can p[retty much run whatever list that I want, and frequently do so. A melee oriented EC army can be a fun change to try. Against most armies a standard MEQ at I5 can be a scary thing. Is it super great and can pulp another codex? No, that is for Grey Knights ^_^ Not only that, but our codex does one thing better than all other armies: Conversion. You can do a different Ragnar, or build your own Pedro, model a champion Interrogator, but our codex shines at this. Where else can you dump your bits box down, glue the first 5 or 6 things together and have a model that can fit some where? Ok, the Ork codex can do it too, stupid fungus.... I play Chaos because I like Chaos. Thats it. There are evil and creepy and demented and driven by human emotions. SM don't have that. Neither do Tau or Eldar or Orks. A Chaos Lord is a fluff gold mine, driven by greed or lusting after glory. Goaded by a fear of death soo strong that he sells his immortal soul to avoid it. I play because it is an awesome game, not to win every time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239188-my-feeble-attempts-at-discussing-the-next-chaos-codex-at-gd/page/3/#findComment-2891186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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