My feeble attempts at discussing the next Chaos Codex at GD

[Kristoff]

so its better the way we have no , no realy viable HQ specials , no squad or tank upgrades . and thanks to that all armies look like carbon copies of each other and those that are "different" have still identical game play ?

 

Jeske, I hate to say this, but this happens anyway, even with codecies with huge amounts of options. SCs or not will not have any bearing on it, whatsoever. SCs will be used if they are properly powerful, and not if they aren't, end of story.

[Eetion]

It never ceases to amuse me how people jump on this as though it's a FACT and WILL DEFINTELY BE IN THE CHAOS DEX. (Note - it probably won't be).

 

I merely mentioned it because it is a MECHANISM, which Chaos Marines currently don't have access to, that can possibly bring more flavour, variation and character to an army; I believe that this is how it was INTENDED in C:SM, though you are entitled to your opinions as to its effectiveness. I brought it up because I was trying to get at the sort of things other Codices have which the CHaos one doesn't and Chaos needs.

 

IS that clear now?

 

 

Oh, and by the way, I don't play Raven Guard, but I know someone who DOES run Raven Guard, yes - with Shrike, and it is an absolutely bad-a** army to play against - it hits hard, but (more importantly imho) it absolutely fits the background and theme of a Raven Guard force.

 

I also know a Marine player who runs a very nasty and effective (almost) purely scout army, who sometimes uses a 'counts-as' Khan as the captiain - his outflanking abilities (and damn nasty sword!) fits with the theme and strategic ethos of this player's army.

 

So the C:SM characters are not perfect as a whole, but used apprpriately I think they can be fun and useful.

 

And at the end of the day, how many units/characters in the Chaos Codex can we say that about? Probably not even half as many in each other Codex...

 

Im not going to debate the power of SCs... nor that SCs are a bad thing... but they should be optional. In order to play a Legion or Chapter they shouldnt be compulsory, counts as or not. I also get that its not definate... But in my humble opinion its like playing with fire, compulsory HQ choice to reflect a Legion isnt the way to go.

 

so its better the way we have no , no realy viable HQ specials , no squad or tank upgrades . and thanks to that all armies look like carbon copies of each other and those that are "different" have still identical game play ?

 

Unless the dex we will have ends up like the one JJ made , it is going to be better. And as fluff goes , after thorpe there is no such thing as worse fluff anymore.

 

Flavour and variety does not come from the Characters, by forcing people to take a Special character it takes away from any creativity. You can get flavour and HQ effectiveness by having good solid balaced rules, and maybe variation lists for the Legions which are again optional for people to take.

[Rain]

Unless something fairly drastic changes in their design philosophy they will have SC altering the FOC chart and/or giving army wide special rules. All of the most recent codices have had this aspect, though sometimes it was done with generic HQ's as well (Dark Eldar armies can take wracks as troops with generic Haemys, not just the SC Urien Rekarth). Even then, there are certain armywide buffs that only SC give, and I would bet that the next Chaos codex will have something like "Alpha Legionaire of Army Sneakyness", "Iron Warrior of Extra Shootyness" etc. Yeah it doesn't make any sense if you think about it, because Legionairres should have certain skills whether or not Ted their favorite lord happens to be around, but it's how GW moved away from the idea of sublists defined by color scheme.

[darth_giles]

Even then, there are certain armywide buffs that only SC give, and I would bet that the next Chaos codex will have something like "Alpha Legionaire of Army Sneakyness", "Iron Warrior of Extra Shootyness" etc. Yeah it doesn't make any sense if you think about it, because Legionairres should have certain skills whether or not Ted their favorite lord happens to be around, but it's how GW moved away from the idea of sublists defined by color scheme.

Well, at least this way they can actually sell the minis for the special characters. Most of the games I played in the local leagues and RTT circuit specifically prohibited special characters back in the 3rd Edition days. The only ones that were fielded for more than just one-offs were the C'tans (is it wrong for me to like the Tomb Kings in Space version better than the Killbots from Hell one?) and O'shovah. In the case of the C'tans, its because they usually lost due to phase out. O'shovah was a popular list with the Tau players and was fairly competitive against the other lists of its day, and arguably started the whole trend of army- wide special character lists.

 

Either way, most people didn't keep the special character minis on hand, or they'd quickly convert them for other uses. About the only ones I'd seen were Abbadon converted into a daemon prince, and Azrael converted into a power armor Inquisitor (from the Heroes of the Imperium list in the back of the 3rd Edition rulebook, about two years before Daemonhunters first came out). They only saw any use as conversion bitz. More people actually bought the Talon of Horus, then Abbadon himself, because it was the only right-handed Lightning Claw for Chaos. Now, people might actually field them for the use they were written and not for kitbashing.

 

Not that I like any of them, though. I still don't like special characters, not even the 'Cron ones.

[the jeske]

Jeske, I hate to say this, but this happens anyway, even with codecies with huge amounts of options. SCs or not will not have any bearing on it, whatsoever. SCs will be used if they are properly powerful, and not if they aren't, end of story.

I think you miss understood me . Of course the number of builds is limited , of course there will always be most optimal ways to play this or that build . But with specials there is more of them .

would people be playing biker lists if there was no khan ? no they wouldnt because the cpt is not good enough to make a biker build viable . other builds just wouldnt exist at all , draigo wings, puri builds not doable without specials .

 

GW will not link build to 2-3 generic HQs , they want us to buy specials that cost twice as much . I would rather have no zerkers at all in a chaos list[because of them being crap and in elite] and have Khârn open up a build for them [fleet/12"charge , chain axs , zerkers are troops and elite and hvy etc but you cant take anything else] , then have specials the way we have them now . I want chaos to have different builds which have different game play and not the "well you can take 3pms or 2 pms/zerkers or 2zerker/1pm or 3csm , but they all work the same way" , because it sucks . It makes a WB , the same as a DG which is the same as WE . the only lists that may have been different [like 1ksons or EC] are not just different , they are also very very bad .

 

I dont care how GW gives us different/more builds , but I know they will not make a 3.5 dex . So specials are the only way.

[Eetion]

Its not the only way. Its just the current way.

 

I'd rather have the option for Legion membership bought as a piece or war gear which adds certain bonuses to characters or units. It would enable Legion players to use any character they like and make a valid representation of their Legion... Or equally you could still have a mix of Legions for those who like and want warbands and variety. Both builds equally valid without having tro be forced to take a Special Character. I miss the days when they were used only with opponents consent and not trundled out with any old army build.

[the jeske]

It would enable Legion players to use any character they like and make a valid representation of their Legion...

they wont do it because it would be saying that what they did with gav dex was wrong .

[Eetion]

Maybe. Doesn't mean I have to agree with the current plan though.

I'd go as far as to say that if I was foced to take a Special character to represent a Legion I'd probably ditch them and work on my renegade warband.

I stuck through the last dex purely cos I love the fluff of my AL lord, but could represent an army (poorly) with chosen and imagination. But then to be told that I can only field AL if I take a special character thus rubbishing my Lords background. Well I may as well start afresh withan undivided warband and make up my own stuff.

[darth_giles]

they wont do it because it would be saying that what they did with gav dex was wrong .

So? How do you think Pete Haines felt when the Gavdex told him that what he'd done was flat-out wrong? And at least he played Chaos, last I checked Gav played Blood Angels.

[Kristoff]

I think you miss understood me . Of course the number of builds is limited , of course there will always be most optimal ways to play this or that build . But with specials there is more of them .

would people be playing biker lists if there was no khan ? no they wouldnt because the cpt is not good enough to make a biker build viable . other builds just wouldnt exist at all , draigo wings, puri builds not doable without specials .

 

No, I think you misunderstood me. Most of the 'competitive' armies ARE cookie cutter WITH Special Characters (when they are worth the points to put on the table) and without, and that usually doesn't matter if they FOC shift at all, or should I reference Vulkan? Yeah, his FOC shifts are the bomb... oh, wait. People use Khan because he's worth the points to field, AND he brings Bikes as Troops (so long as he's mounted as well). If he cost twice as much as he did, people would just bring the Capt on the bike unless the points of the game went high enough to make the hit worthwhile.

 

No, the reason they put the FOC shifts in is because the character usually wouldn't be worth getting half as much if he didn't provide the shifts. And GW is a "miniature company" after all.

 

GW will not link build to 2-3 generic HQs , they want us to buy specials that cost twice as much . I would rather have no zerkers at all in a chaos list[because of them being crap and in elite] and have Khârn open up a build for them [fleet/12"charge , chain axs , zerkers are troops and elite and hvy etc but you cant take anything else] , then have specials the way we have them now . I want chaos to have different builds which have different game play and not the "well you can take 3pms or 2 pms/zerkers or 2zerker/1pm or 3csm , but they all work the same way" , because it sucks . It makes a WB , the same as a DG which is the same as WE . the only lists that may have been different [like 1ksons or EC] are not just different , they are also very very bad .

 

I dont care how GW gives us different/more builds , but I know they will not make a 3.5 dex . So specials are the only way.

 

I disagree that SCs are the 'only way', just the one that they will primarily use. They make a very pretty model, and they'll want to sell it more. So, they make taking it worth more than just being a beatstick/buffbot/debuffer by giving them FOC movement.

 

As for how much of that we'll see in the next codex or two, it's simply a matter of how many units are in the Troops section. The fewer the Troops, the more likely we'll see FOC-moving characters.

[the jeske]

So? How do you think Pete Haines felt when the Gavdex told him that what he'd done was flat-out wrong? And at least he played Chaos, last I checked Gav played Blood Angels.

wasnt working for the GW at the time . what would he care about ?

 

 

No, the reason they put the FOC shifts in is because the character usually wouldn't be worth getting half as much if he didn't provide the shifts.

people play lysander and he doesnt shift anything . If draigo lost the paladins are troops they would still play him .

 

 

 

ARE cookie cutter WITH Special Characters (when they are worth the points to put on the table) and without, and that usually doesn't matter if they FOC shift at all, or should I reference Vulkan?

how do you build a draigo wing or puri build without crow or draigo ? you dont . DW without belial ? not possible .

Cortez build without him ? not possible to do . Sure some HQs are just beat sticks [mefiston] or better version of regular HQ[eldrad] , but those that do modify the FoC give a new build to play . More different builds is always good .

 

 

 

 

I disagree that SCs are the 'only way', just the one that they will primarily use.

but they are the only way . they wont go back to traits or traits light before 7th . The only "other" way is to make half the codex undercosted and not realy using the standard FoC from the begining like they did with IG . But doing that you may as well end up with codex nids.

 

As for how much of that we'll see in the next codex or two, it's simply a matter of how many units are in the Troops section. The fewer the Troops, the more likely we'll see FOC-moving characters.

sisters have 1 troop , how many FoC changing HQs did they get ?

[Kristoff]

No, the reason they put the FOC shifts in is because the character usually wouldn't be worth getting half as much if he didn't provide the shifts.

people play lysander and he doesnt shift anything . If draigo lost the paladins are troops they would still play him .

 

But they wouldn't play Draigo as much, and would probably be left out of the "Cookie Cutter Build" if he didn't. And that's the point. Lysander is not mentioned on any Cookie Cutter build that I've seen. If they're taking Bikes, they're taking Khan, if they're not, they're taking Vulkan.

 

ARE cookie cutter WITH Special Characters (when they are worth the points to put on the table) and without, and that usually doesn't matter if they FOC shift at all, or should I reference Vulkan?

how do you build a draigo wing or puri build without crow or draigo ? you dont . DW without belial ? not possible .

Cortez build without him ? not possible to do . Sure some HQs are just beat sticks [mefiston] or better version of regular HQ[eldrad] , but those that do modify the FoC give a new build to play . More different builds is always good .

 

I agree more builds are good, but that doesn't mean that the Special Characters make more or less "Cookie Cutter Builds". Why? Because they are cookie cutters, so there is no alteration, no change. If people could take the options that Draigo provides without Draigo, especially if they could take the same options for cheaper, they would, so they could add more of X unit that the SC provides the FOC alteration with.

 

And let's look at your Chaos Cookie Cutter and how many Special Characters are in them... Oh, right, there is none. So, yeah, Cookie Cutters can and will be done without SCs.

 

I disagree that SCs are the 'only way', just the one that they will primarily use.

but they are the only way . they wont go back to traits or traits light before 7th . The only "other" way is to make half the codex undercosted and not realy using the standard FoC from the begining like they did with IG . But doing that you may as well end up with codex nids.

 

No, they aren't the only way, or should we look at Dark Eldar? Are they hurting because one of the FOC swaps is caused by a non SC? Nope. Of course, I rarely hear about that build because it isn't "Cookie Cutter". Of course, neither is the Baron Build, either.

 

It ISN'T the ONLY way, just the one that GW will use for now. Why? Because they want to sell little Finecast soldiers, and the best way to do that is to provide a reason beyond just being the Beat Stick/Buffer/Debuffer of the moment. I said it was their PRIMARY method of doing it, and that has not changed, and will not change. Do I expect that the best FOC swaps in near future codecies will require SCs to unlock? You betcha, but it is not the only way.

 

As for how much of that we'll see in the next codex or two, it's simply a matter of how many units are in the Troops section. The fewer the Troops, the more likely we'll see FOC-moving characters.

sisters have 1 troop , how many FoC changing HQs did they get ?

 

Yeah, you mean the codex where they stripped everything out of it that wasn't Sororitas or Ministorium, added 1-2 common units and 1-2 SCs to, and that they had little to shift in the first place? Nice try.

[Son of Rawl]

According to the Tau rumours what ever you choose as your HQ then it will limit/open what choices you can take as troops.

 

Not power armoured related, I know but that does sound interesting if this type of system follows suit in future codex's.

[Kristoff]

According to the Tau rumours what ever you choose as your HQ then it will limit/open what choices you can take as troops.

 

Not power armoured related, I know but that does sound interesting if this type of system follows suit in future codex's.

 

A bad pun there, especially considering that some of those Troop options are battlesuits (Tau version of PA). The first edition of those rumors said that Tau would have ZERO Troop options, too. I don't think it will go that far, though, especially with other rumors that they will have 3 races in the Troops section.

[the jeske]

Yeah, you mean the codex where they stripped everything out of it that wasn't Sororitas or Ministorium, added 1-2 common units and 1-2 SCs to, and that they had little to shift in the first place? Nice try.

more specials then they had in 4th ed dex and more units then they had in the 4th ed dex. So yeah It is my try .

 

 

No, they aren't the only way, or should we look at Dark Eldar? Are they hurting because one of the FOC swaps is caused by a non SC? Nope. Of course, I rarely hear about that build because it isn't "Cookie Cutter"

venoms trueborn . wars with blasters . more venoms. something to assault with+HQ . the gun platforms[ravagers?] army done . +unlike legions they have more then 1 troop and 1 elite and 1 FA[sometimes 0] and 1non tank hvy support[somtimes 0) .

 

If I had cheap msu or the possibity of it I wouldnt worry about what specials I have too .

I mean lets look at it cult legions . 1 troop option . non cult legions . one troop option . how are the list suppose to be different without specials ?

 

 

Do I expect that the best FOC swaps in near future codecies will require SCs to unlock? You betcha, but it is not the only way.

then how ? a mini list for each legion? wont happen , they havent done that for any army in the 5th they wont do it down , when the DT is the same . a long list of "pick your trait for your troop choice X to make legion Y" ? they wont do that . . So how are they suppose to do it without making FoC specials ? Make them like orcs . Take sorc unit Y goes to troops or take lord unit Z has no limit in FoC . cool but they did it one time with orcs , tried to do it with nids[and failed] . + it wouldnt work for us unless they suddenly put non HQ modifing choices in the dex . And as we dont have chaplains/techmarines or even Lt lvl HQs that wont happen. they wont do it like they did it with IG where the list more or less ignores the FoC (+has tons of low cost or undercosted units which makes it run smooth).

Am a realist a awesome dex with 100k options and builds wont happen , because GW isnt interested in it . I see what they are doing with .

 

 

 

But they wouldn't play Draigo as much, and would probably be left out of the "Cookie Cutter Build" if he didn't. And that's the point. Lysander is not mentioned on any Cookie Cutter build that I've seen. If they're taking Bikes, they're taking Khan, if they're not, they're taking Vulkan.

Ok I think am missing something here. You do know that terminators are outperformed by strike in every thing[survial , weapons, costs , speed, hth , shoting etc] If draigo was not there with the paladin rule then a whole build a whole army would be dead. Is that what you want ? fewer builds ?

 

lysander is played in dual LR builds with khan .

[Eetion]

But they wouldn't play Draigo as much, and would probably be left out of the "Cookie Cutter Build" if he didn't. And that's the point. Lysander is not mentioned on any Cookie Cutter build that I've seen. If they're taking Bikes, they're taking Khan, if they're not, they're taking Vulkan.

Ok I think am missing something here. You do know that terminators are outperformed by strike in every thing[survial , weapons, costs , speed, hth , shoting etc] If draigo was not there with the paladin rule then a whole build a whole army would be dead. Is that what you want ? fewer builds ?

 

lysander is played in dual LR builds with khan .

 

And there lies the problem... running lists with 2 Special Characters in it, just for the bonuses they get. How is that a good thing? Its horrific! I dont care how they do it... but I prey to God its not the Special Characters.

[darth_giles]

how do you build a draigo wing or puri build without crow or draigo ? you dont . DW without belial ? not possible .

Cortez build without him ? not possible to do . Sure some HQs are just beat sticks [mefiston] or better version of regular HQ[eldrad] , but those that do modify the FoC give a new build to play . More different builds is always good .

Requiring Belial to run a Deathwing army was a truly stupid move on GW's part, IMO. It and the Ravenwing lists were totally separate before the current glorification of the SC, and the SC doesn't really add much to the list that wasn't in there already. Now, if he had been like the Ultramarines SC from Chapter Approved who granted access to Terminator Armor with Reductors, Naritheciums, Servo-Arms, and all that other non-Terminator lov'n, then maybe he'd have been worth it. Add to that the fact that SCs totally destroy the character and storytelling of an army, and you really do end up with less each codex.

 

And there lies the problem... running lists with 2 Special Characters in it, just for the bonuses they get. How is that a good thing? Its horrific! I dont care how they do it... but I prey to God its not the Special Characters.

Beardy cheese at its beardiest. Do they actually let abuses like that into tournaments now?

[Kristoff]

Do I expect that the best FOC swaps in near future codecies will require SCs to unlock? You betcha, but it is not the only way.

then how ? a mini list for each legion? wont happen , they havent done that for any army in the 5th they wont do it down , when the DT is the same . a long list of "pick your trait for your troop choice X to make legion Y" ? they wont do that . . So how are they suppose to do it without making FoC specials ? Make them like orcs . Take sorc unit Y goes to troops or take lord unit Z has no limit in FoC . cool but they did it one time with orcs , tried to do it with nids[and failed] . + it wouldnt work for us unless they suddenly put non HQ modifing choices in the dex . And as we dont have chaplains/techmarines or even Lt lvl HQs that wont happen. they wont do it like they did it with IG where the list more or less ignores the FoC (+has tons of low cost or undercosted units which makes it run smooth).

Am a realist a awesome dex with 100k options and builds wont happen , because GW isnt interested in it . I see what they are doing with .

 

:facepalm: :) I NEVER said that wasn't their current pattern nor that they would change it. Please put that in your understanding. I am simply saying that is NOT the ONLY (as in no other way that is possible) to get this done. And we know that is true because they have done this in the past. We have also seen that certain plain HQs CAN turn either an Elite or Fast Attack into Troops, even as recently as Dark Eldar. True, it is uncommon, and they aren't always worth it, but it IS possible.

 

Again, I don't really EXPECT them to change their pattern any time soon to something they have used in previous editions or even a new version that doesn't use anything they've done before. Just don't deny the past or the present as not existent.

 

But they wouldn't play Draigo as much, and would probably be left out of the "Cookie Cutter Build" if he didn't. And that's the point. Lysander is not mentioned on any Cookie Cutter build that I've seen. If they're taking Bikes, they're taking Khan, if they're not, they're taking Vulkan.

Ok I think am missing something here. You do know that terminators are outperformed by strike in every thing[survial , weapons, costs , speed, hth , shoting etc] If draigo was not there with the paladin rule then a whole build a whole army would be dead. Is that what you want ? fewer builds ?

 

lysander is played in dual LR builds with khan .

 

Which almost makes one of them useless, as you can only use one of their Chapter Tactics, which is the main reason for taking these SCs.

 

As for the whole Draigo thing, all I'm asking is would you take him as often (or at all) if he DIDN'T do an FOC swap? The FOC swap is primarily a ploy to get you to buy the model (or several to kit bash them), and little more, really.

 

But they wouldn't play Draigo as much, and would probably be left out of the "Cookie Cutter Build" if he didn't. And that's the point. Lysander is not mentioned on any Cookie Cutter build that I've seen. If they're taking Bikes, they're taking Khan, if they're not, they're taking Vulkan.

Ok I think am missing something here. You do know that terminators are outperformed by strike in every thing[survial , weapons, costs , speed, hth , shoting etc] If draigo was not there with the paladin rule then a whole build a whole army would be dead. Is that what you want ? fewer builds ?

 

lysander is played in dual LR builds with khan .

 

And there lies the problem... running lists with 2 Special Characters in it, just for the bonuses they get. How is that a good thing? Its horrific! I dont care how they do it... but I prey to God its not the Special Characters.

 

And in the Space Marine codex makes some of those special rules useless if you DO take more SCs than one, as I mentioned above.

[Eetion]

Special Characters should be exactly that. Special. Powerful pieces that can change the course of game by thir presence on the battlefield. They shouldnt have to be carted out whenever a player wants to represent a Legion, or a Marine Chapter.

[the jeske]

True, it is uncommon, and they aren't always worth it, but it IS possible.

Again, I don't really EXPECT them to change their pattern any time soon to something they have used in previous editions or even a new version that doesn't use anything they've done before. Just don't deny the past or the present as not existent.

but if it is not worth it then it may as well not exist . Would chaos player notice if bikers or raptors were kicked out of the dex ? no he wouldnt . on the other hand if there was a special that buffs drasticly or changes the FoC he would .

They have not done meq non special HQs that change FoC other then the sm cpt and even he is outshined by khan . CSM are a meq , the codex will be mostly copy past . I mean I dont think anyone expects game play worth changes to any of troops we have right now . + its against GW sale policy . DE had a totaly reworked new model line , rebuild from nothing . CSM wont be unless they like retcon everything .

 

Which almost makes one of them useless, as you can only use one of their Chapter Tactics, which is the main reason for taking these SCs.

why ? one dude is take for outflanking LR , the other is taken for TH/SS and eternal warrior . neither is wasted or bad . lysander is not taken for his CT[which are crap anyway] or the re-roll to bolters , so nothing bad happens. Now if taking 2 specials ment that neither of the CT rules work [we had stuff like that in the past . like for example way way way back int he past dwarf and elfs if they were ally couldnt use each other generals Lds and banners as they didnt trust each other] , because the forces are not used fighting along side each other so only the basics stay the same[ATKNF] , then it would make sense .Then having non specials change FoC or buff/debuff units would make sense and GW would probably do it for some armies.

 

 

 

As for the whole Draigo thing, all I'm asking is would you take him as often (or at all) if he DIDN'T do an FOC swap? The FOC swap is primarily a ploy to get you to buy the model (or several to kit bash them), and little more, really.

well he would cost less , so would be played in deathstar builds probably with the same unit of paladins or purifires.

Again I dont see why specials are such a problem . GW would not give a normal non special HQ the option to modify the FoC , that would mean fewer builds . Fewer builds is never good. We went from many to more or less one with chaos and it didnt work at all.

[Rain]

Yes, GW probably won't give many non-named HQs list altering rules jeske, we mostly agree, we just think that it's a bad idea. Not everyone plays the game purely for the rolling dice and winning aspect, some people have a sense of pride in their army and want to to feel like it's "theirs" which usually involves having your own HQ character leading it. Oh and troop wracks are not bad, they might not be part of the yawn inducing venom spam list, but unlike with Chaos, DE can actually field quite a few viable lists and wracks make a great backbone CC unit for a raider rush list, they are actually the best CC troops the army has, since wyches are terrible unless they roll +1 str or reroll wounds.

[A D-B]

:facepalm: :P I NEVER said that wasn't their current pattern nor that they would change it. Please put that in your understanding. I am simply saying that is NOT the ONLY (as in no other way that is possible) to get this done. And we know that is true because they have done this in the past. We have also seen that certain plain HQs CAN turn either an Elite or Fast Attack into Troops, even as recently as Dark Eldar. True, it is uncommon, and they aren't always worth it, but it IS possible.

 

Again, I don't really EXPECT them to change their pattern any time soon to something they have used in previous editions or even a new version that doesn't use anything they've done before. Just don't deny the past or the present as not existent.

 

Doesn't our most reliable rumour have Phil Kelly writing the Chaos Codex? If he did it with the Dark Eldar... Y'never know.

[the jeske]

But he is doing eldar right now , if he was ment to do chaos legions then we are either ready on off to print[which we arent as far as I know] or we are not coming out next year . That would mean we either are the first dex of the edition or one of the last dex in the old . both options suck hard , specialy after years of Gav dex.

[A D-B]

But he is doing eldar right now , if he was ment to do chaos legions then we are either ready on off to print[which we arent as far as I know] or we are not coming out next year . That would mean we either are the first dex of the edition or one of the last dex in the old . both options suck hard , specialy after years of Gav dex.

 

You're guessing. Time will tell.

[Excessus]

I don't think ghost has written a single post in the warseer thread since you scared him away ADB... ;)

 

 

The rumours has died down a bit with only theDarkGeneral posts a bit now and then...