Hounds v. Seekers

[Khorne Inquisitor]

So me and my friend Steve had this discussion...in fact on more than one occasion.  Why use hounds?

 

Well, first the obvious answer.  Dogs from hell.  How much more awesome can you have?  No, but seriously, a 2++ save against force weapons and wounds inflicted from psyker attacks.  But unless I am playing against grey knights, in which case a smart player will just shoot the things, this isn't a huge ame breaker.  So onto how they are normally used.

 

I use fast things for box poppers.  This seems to be the best way to do so reliably.  Fast units crack the box, slower units crush the foot sloggers.  So which one does this better?  For those who don't know, here are the stats that matter.

 

Hounds-

3 attacks at S5 on the charge at I5, one model upgradable to rending (for the sake of argument and numbers, no rending here).  15 points a piece.

 

Seekers-

5 attacks at S3 on the charge with rending.  17 points a piece.

 

We will run this test at 150 points.  So 10 hounds, 8 seekers (with 14 points left over).  

 

Let's set the standard.  We will do MEQ wounds on charge (MWC), effects on charge (EOC - this covers immobilized or weapon destroyed), and wrecks on charge (WOC - this covers wrecks or explosions).

 

I will be using the iPod or iPad app, mathhammer for numbers.

 

AV 10 will be assumed armor value.

 

Hounds on charge (against a stationary target)

EOC- 3.333 on charge (that's 1.6666 immobilized results and 1.6666 weapon destroyed results or an 82% chance of getting at least one weapon destroyed or immobilize, that's 82% for each)

WOC- 1.666 on charge (that's .8333 wrecks and .8333 explosions, with a 57% chance of getting at least one wreck or explosion on a charge).

 

Seekers on charge (against a stationary vehicle)

EOC- 2.222 on charge (that's 1.111 immobilized or weapon destroyed results, with a 68% chance of either).  

WOC- 1.481 on charge (that's .7407 wrecks or explosions, with a 52% chance of getting at least one wreck or explosion on a charge).  

 

So, the verdict on stationary targets is that the hounds win out.  Now what about if the target has moved up to 6". 

 

Hounds on charge (with a 4+ to hit)

EOC- 1.666 (that's .833 weapon destroyed or immobilized results, with a 57% chance of getting at least one weapon destroyed or immobilized).

WOC- .8332 (that's .4166 wrecks or explosions, with a 34% chance of getting at least one wreck or explosion).

 

Seekers on the charge (with a 4+ to hit)

EOC 1.111 (that's .5555 weapon destroyed or immobilized results, with a 42% chance of getting at least one weapon destroyed or immobilized).

WOC- .7414 (that's .3703 wrecks or explosions, with a 31% chance of getting at least one wreck or explosion).

 

With less attacks, the hounds superior ability to wreck is shown in a decrease in split from 5% to 3%, but an increase in effects from 14% to 15%.  

 

So what happens if a 6 is needed to hit.  

Hounds on the charge (with a 6+ needed to hit)

EOC- .5554 (that's .2777 weapon destroyed or immobilized results, with a 24% chance of getting at least one weapon destroyed or immobilized).

WOC- .2776 (that's .1388 wrecks or explosions, with a 13% chance of getting at least one wreck or explosion).

 

Seekers on the charge (with a 6+ needed to hit)

EOC- .3702 (that's .1851 weapon destroyed or immobilized results, with a 17% chance of getting at least one weapon destroyed or immobilized).

WOC- .2468 (that's .1234 wrecks or explosions, with a 12% chance of getting at least one wreck or explosion).

 

So ultimately, when it comes to popping those pesky rhinos, hounds win the day with a S5 charge.  MEQ competitive wound analysis of seekers and hounds to come later.  So if you play daemons and are looking for something to fill the niche of getting those smurfs out of those boxes, then look to your hounds.  The seekers have the advantage of a higher I value, and rending which will undoubtedly aid in their ability to win against infantry, but the higher T, more models (thus more wounds), smaller model (means easier to get cover), and comparable threat range makes hounds a strong option in the fight against mechanized armor.  

 

 

AND PART II

 

Hounds V Seekers, part II

Fast daemons meet infantry...

So continuing in my analysis of these units, I throw the same 10 hounds and 8 seekers against 

 

9 space marines (@ 16 points each)

and 

30 guardsmen (@ 5 points each)

 

For this I will discuss 

Wounds on enemy (WOE) 

Wounds on unit (WOU).  This will be presented as #.## (#.##).  The number in parenthesis will be the wounds applied to the hounds or seekers if they inflicted exactly the number (rounded down) to the enemy unit as predicted and they went first.  

 

I will examine if the hounds and seekers charge the marines or guardsmen, then I will examine the seekers and hounds if they are charged.

 

Remember, both hounds and seekers have a 5++ invuln save, but the seekers have T3 and I6 and the hounds have a T4 and I4 (5 on the charge).  For the remaining characteristics, reference my other analysis of hounds v seekers or CODEX:DAEMONS.

 

The source of numbers will be the iPod/iPad app Mathahmmer 40k.

 

Hounds on charge (charging space marines)

WOE-3.33

WOU-1.50 (1.00)

 

Seekers of charge (charging space marines)

WOE- 4.44

WOU- 2.00 (1.11)

 

So the seekers win out against the hounds if they charge space marines with a 1.11 lead while ultimately suffering no more full wounds.  

 

Hounds on charge (charging guardsmen)

WOE- 11.11

WOU- 3.33 (2.11)

 

Seekers on charge (charging guardsmen)

WOE- 10.37 

WOU- 5.00 (3.33)

 

The hounds win the charge against the guardsmen by 0.74 wounds while suffering 1.22 less wounds.  

 

Now let's see how the hounds and seekers do when they don't get the drop on the imperial do-gooders.

 

Hounds being charged (by space marines)

WOE-1.66

WOU- 3.00

 

Seekers being charged (by space marines)

WOE- 3.55

WOU- 2.00 (1.33)

 

The seekers pummel the marines causing double the amount of damage that the hounds caused.  How do the seekers and hounds do against guardsmen charging them.

 

Hounds being charged (by guardsmen)

WOE-7.40

WOU-6.66 (5.88)

 

Seekers being charged (by guardsmen)

WOE- 8.29

WOU- 5.00 (3.66)

 

So the defensive grenades of the seekers allowed for a staggering victory being charged.  I think this round is taken by the seekers.

So, what does this mean.

 

Seekers- great against infantry based forces.  Capable of getting in and dishing out a tremendous amount of abuse on I6, so they almost always go first or simultaneously, and their defensive grenades gives them the advantage of if someone does charge them they are fine.  Be cautious, they crumple under fire, and if they are already in combat they wont get their defensive grenade bonus.  Keep these to the flanks to zip in can cut down rear units in a single full turn of combat to keep you charging new units every turn!  

 

Hounds- overall, a great middle of the road assault unit.  Multi-purpose are these guys credo.  With a fair ability to crack a rhino, razorback, predator, or chimera (even some leman Russ variants can be felled by the hounds) paired with fair infantry pounding power and a higher toughness than seekers which allows them to weather the storms of war a little better than their fairer cousins, these guys are a must have for a faster all-comers list.  A caution on usage though, they don't have assault grenades and they need the charge to be effective.  Couple these guys with some bloodletters of blood crushers to tip the scales in your favor.  I would suggest throwing these guys into the fray against dev squads, scout squads, or any unit isolated from a main body of the enemies army.  They work wonders on the charge, but don't let the hounds hang out in close combat as the loss of an initiative and strength point makes them pretty much assault marines with a 5++ save.

 

Hope you found this entertaining and thoughtful, 

Comments and suggestions are always welcome.

 

KI

[Brother Ambroz]

To me neither really seem worth it. They're just far too fragile for how good they are. The only FA that seems worth it are the screamers with their anti-tank. Either one would go down really fast even to one squad's bolter fire.

[Khorne Inquisitor]

I have only recently started to use hounds, but I have used seekers for quote a while, and during that have used screamers occasionally. The problem with screamers is three fold. 1- shorter threat range than hounds or seekers, 2- they have no shooting and are horrible in close combat, and 3- are jet bikes so if a vehicle is parked in cover and you assault it, you run a risk of losing some screamers. I really like screamers, but as AV 14 can openers and objective contestors. Their specialization, in my opinion, is what makes them almost a liability in some games. In an all-comers list, I can see a squad of 5 for the land raiders or to reliably tear down rhinos and Preds, but that said, against a non-mechanized army (descent of angels, IG blob, green tide, any nid list, any daemon list, death wing list, LOTD list, lash list (because they have a shorter threat range and can't run), psyfleman or rifleman list, or any other list with lots of walkers and or infantry) they are a liability, not an asset. Tack on the holofields of the eldar as well to that list, because that's where you need the huge amounts of hits and damage rolls to try to get some effects on target or a 5+ roll.

 

Hounds and seekers offer a fast means of pushing into close quarters with enemy models and vehicles, particularly in their back side and flanks, while maintaining the ability to tear down both infantry and vehicles (and some walkers too...if you are reaaalllly lucky). It puts the pressure on from a distance, allowing your infantry time to maneuver.

 

But no, one round of blotter fire will not drop a squad of hounds unless you are unwise enough to slap them in rapid fire range, and that gives them 10 shots max, meaning 6.66 will hit, 3.33 will wounds, and you will inflict 2.22 wounds. The dogs in cover, then make that 1.665 wounds. Seekers crumble a little easier, but as I said, throw them into a dev squad or a scout squad and even three or four remaining will do the trick to win your turn, and then win his turn and hopefully wipe or sweep them then (and seekers sweep pretty reliably). Plus that biker base and big threat range is good for surrounding a squad, that way if they break they die anyways. Same with hounds.

 

Lastly, hounds and seekers, just like screamers but not as good, can contest objectives pretty well with a normal move, fleet, and if you can survive one round of combat a 12" charge.

[Spacefrisian]

Hounds should be considered when you know you are facing Greyknights. Just get those doggies in cc and laugh all there special Force weapon attacks away with youre 2+ inv save.

[Khorne Inquisitor]

Yes, I agree. Against grey knights, hounds are an obvious selection and given the current meta game, in a tournament or a local venue game night, you can be pretty confident you will likely throw down against the grey knights. In an all-comers list, hounds a worth their cost.