Using Predator model as Razorback?

[Selleck]

I have considered using the BAAL Predator as an assault cannon Razorback, and possibly also a standard Predator as a Lascannon Razorback (both without the side-sponsons; of course!) since they both have a better appearance than the standard turret (IMO)... there are some problems with that?

[NuclearMessiah]

I dont see a problem with it, and it looks like a more modern IFC (Infantry Fighting Vehicle) then. I say go for it.

[Valkyrion]

No skin off my nose, especially as GK's can't take Predators anyway so there's no confusion to be had.

[Iron Lord]

With the side hatch open, and internal doors slid back a bit, it could certainly help stress that it's an APC, not a tank.

[breng77]

as I posted on the other thread you started concerning the same topic the only issue I could see is the length of the guns on the turret. I believe that the Predator turrets might be a little longer at which point it could be considered modeling for advantage.

[Morollan]

as I posted on the other thread you started concerning the same topic the only issue I could see is the length of the guns on the turret. I believe that the Predator turrets might be a little longer at which point it could be considered modeling for advantage.

 

When assembling the model you could put the turret mount on backwards so the turret is further back on the model. The AC on the Baal is also very short anyway so it might not be much different in any event.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

I would not like it. I would always think they were predators. Gamewise, ruleswise, I wouldn't even mind so much, but as for the experience of depicting our fantastic little battles with models on the tabletop, you might just as well use a shoe as a razorback. It won't be as enjoyable as using the correct model.

 

Now if you do an actual conversion based on the predator turret - something clearly looking very different from an actual predator, then I could see this as a special version of a razorback, and I'd enjoy that.

 

I may be strange that way, but counts-as makes me want to kill kittens, whereas interesting conversions don't.

[thade]

Yea, if it's silver with a TL-Assault Cannon on the roof, under the GK codex it could be nothing else. This is legit.

 

It would be confusing if you painted it red and tried the same thing under the BA codex. :)

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Well you always have to remember that there isn't a Assault Cannon (bitswise) for a Razorback. There is only the Heavy Bolter and Lascannon. So for the other two you have to model them anyway you can so you really can't model for advantage when there isn't a normal one to compare.

[NuclearMessiah]

Well you always have to remember that there isn't a Assault Cannon (bitswise) for a Razorback. There is only the Heavy Bolter and Lascannon. So for the other two you have to model them anyway you can so you really can't model for advantage when there isn't a normal one to compare.

 

Actually you can get the AC from the LR Crusader/Redeemer kit. The front weapon of the LR is the same as the razorback weapon system :) However this is not always a very cheap method to get an AC since most bits sellers sell them at a premium.

[thade]

I ended up buying several LRC/R upgrade kits to magnetize my LR up with various sponsons...so this is in fact where I got my TL-Assault Cannons for my rarely-fielded Razorbacks. :)

[Inquisitor Fox]

If you're doing the assault cannon with psycannon bolts, Forgeworld has a twin-linked psycannon turret that is the same thing ruleswise... effectively, depending on if you're adding a pintle-mounted stormbolter, etc. You also might be able to work up something using the assault cannon bits from the Ravenwing speeder and a normal Razorback turret.

[chaplainmeliadus]

I had some assault cannon barrels left over from a stormraven, and they went onto a spare razorback heavy bolter turret with very little effort.

[BrotherWasted]

Modelling for advantage is legitimate. Do it. Always.

 

It's the same reason I flip around the Razorback turret plate so that the turret is in the centre of the tank, not at the back.

[Whitefireinferno]

^^^ Mine sit in the rear position for photos but for gameplay the turrets are switched to the center. Other than that I have found the old metal TL asscans from the old Crusader are really easy to find as well as the sprues for the Crusader. BUT as to what OP wanted I would be happier if there was some converting done to the turrets but it is not really a problem due to the GK not having Preds and such.

[*Furyou Miko]

Sure, go for it. I do it all the time.

 

Well, kinda. I field a Flamestorm Predator as an Immolator. Almost the same thing, and the longer barrel on the Flamestorm cannon almost negates the fact that the turret ring is set further back. I also field a Mk2 Razorback as a HB Immolator on occasion, which looks particularly egrarious as it has a Marine gunner in the turret.

[Crynn]

I would not like it. I would always think they were predators. Gamewise, ruleswise, I wouldn't even mind so much, but as for the experience of depicting our fantastic little battles with models on the tabletop, you might just as well use a shoe as a razorback. It won't be as enjoyable as using the correct model.

 

Now if you do an actual conversion based on the predator turret - something clearly looking very different from an actual predator, then I could see this as a special version of a razorback, and I'd enjoy that.

 

I may be strange that way, but counts-as makes me want to kill kittens, whereas interesting conversions don't.

 

Really? Likening a shoe to using a predator and razorback? Would you have a problem if he flipped the turret around so that it was mounted near the back of the chassis? In my mind this is what the OP was preposing to do and I would personally have no problems with it and I am a pretty play it as it is kinda guy.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Yes, really.

 

Look at it like this: if you watch a movie, part of the enjoyment is immersion, when your mind is so locked into the movie's story and so identifying with its protagonist that you seem to view the story from the inside.

 

The same, at least for me, happens with videogames - and tabletop. In a tabletop game, one does not completely immerse, since one has to roll dice and know rules and such, but there are always a few moments of immersion, when I can really enjoy the fictional battle the most, looking at the models on the table, enjoying the scene. The basis for immersion, here, is created by the look of models and terrain and the knowledge of what the game mechanics just "made happen" (ie some vehicle destroyed result = the tank exploding and so on).

 

Now, a movie example. Imagine you watch an action movie set in our actual reality, and the hero is just being chased through a city by some gangster guy. You are enjoying the movie and having a great time, fearing for the protagonist. Suddenly, a comic figure appears, an actual obviously animated figure having nothing to do with the movie and obviously not being consistent with the world the story is set in. You will immediately lose immersion - because the happenings on the screen will have broken your suspension of disbelief. This will make you enjoy the movie less. Some people become very frustrated when a good movie (or book, or videogame) suddenly loses its quality in such a way.

 

Now when you do counts-as on the tabletop, that is the same: the suspension of disbelief is broken, the level of depiction that was the basis for immersion is lost. If my mind needs to filter what it sees - ie "This is not a predator, it is a razorback, even though it looks like a predator." - then immersion is a step further away, and that means I do not enjoy the game as much as I would if the razorback were represented by a razorback model instead of a predator model.

 

If there is an actual conversion, I can just simply file the looks and design of this under "razorback, different style" (just as I learned what a razorback should look like in the first place - but the look of a predator is already filed under "predator" in my head and cannot be re-designated that easily) and it stops being a problem.

 

And since it is the mind filtering the visual information that stops the immersion, it doesn't matter whether the razorback is represented by a predator or by a shoe. In both cases, my mind needs to step in and filter the information and thus it breaks the suspension of disbelief, and I enjoy the game less. Yes, overall, a predator representing a razorback certainly looks better on the tabletop than a shoe, I agree. But for the matter of immersion, it makes as good as no difference.

 

So there. Yes, really.

[The Holy Heretic]

Wolf Priest and breng77, you oughta cool down a bit there.

 

You're watching a cheesy sci-fi flick, not a historical docu-drama re-enactment show. For the purpose of immersion it makes no difference whatsoever to the movie, whether you see little tank with little robo-turret or little tank with big manned turret, both are just shooty metal boxes. Who is to say that the guys at Forgeworld IX produce exactly the same tank as those over at Forgeworld Beta9. The imperium afterall, is comprised of an untold number of worlds, the whole point in this is to give people the chance model their stuff, exactly like they want to.

 

And regarding the 'modelling for advantage'-thing, who cares? Sure some dude might put a 20" barrel on his pred, but why play that guy - he's probably got a bad hygiene and a rotten personality to boot - but who can blame a guy for wanting his models to look better (besides, the bigger turret would make the predback more difficult to hide, so it evens out).

 

And finally. Here is a pic of my inquisitorial Rolls Royce Chimera - and I never met a guy, who didn't want to fight it, so go overboard! :)

http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac133/the_red_scourge/Limo/IMG_0172.jpg

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

1. I am cool, I am just stating my opinion, since the OP asked for it. I am not saying he may not model stuff like anything he wants to. And don't get me wrong, I'd probably still play him, I do play with unpainted stuff, too, after all. It is not like this was a matter of life and death. But I would still not like having predators used as razorbacks, I'd like to have razorbacks look significantly different from predators.

 

3. For a scifi movie, it makes no difference, except if I already have preconceived notions about it. Let me explain.

 

I know nothing about the new Dark Eldar, having never read their codex or played against them. When I someday play my first game against DE, I'll ask a lot of questions. "What is that? What does it do? How do its rules work?" So the DE player will probably tell me some of the mechanics, names and fluff. Say he has a vehicle he calls a raider (there was someting like that in the old DE, I think, right?) and tells me how its the standard issue troop transport, quick and agile looking thing, AV 10 all round, whatever. So now my brain says, okay, that's a raider. This goes right into the fluff-and-immersion-section, and I enjoy the visuals of the game. Now if in the next game the guy told me that the same model is now a talon (or whatever - something different, in any case), that doesn't work for me, visuals-wise.

 

Like if in a Star Wars movie, a Tie-Fighter is suddenly called a Lightningfighter and has five turbolaser batteries and can destroy the Millenium Falcon with a single salvo. You'd not believe it, if you did believe the way it was initially depicted.

[Valkyrion]

Whilst you have a bit of a point, if taken completely to the nth degree, fluff wise it would not be difficult to reconfigure any rhino chassis based vehicle if needs must, especially a downgrade.

Just like the Red Scorpions did with the Whirlwind/Land Raider hybrid, so too could the Grey Knights recover a Predator, strip out the sponsons and ammo storage, reconsecrate et voila - a Razorback. With a predator turret. No big deal, neither in the fluff nor in the rules.

[Selleck]

Thanks for all the positive responses, I'll probably be going for a Razor-"Predator"-back - and with regard to all the kind'a'negative "all models must be 100% alike" responses ... you'll probably don't want to play against me anyway ... especially not when my Grey knights are bronze-colored! :)

[BrotherWasted]

That's nothing. I know a guy who painted his Grey Knights as Nurgle Terminators and plays them with the GK Codex.

[breng77]

Wolf Priest and breng77, you oughta cool down a bit there.

Thanks for all the positive responses, I'll probably be going for a Razor-"Predator"-back - and with regard to all the kind'a'negative "all models must be 100% alike" responses ... you'll probably don't want to play against me anyway ... especially not when my Grey knights are bronze-colored!

 

And my Gks are Blue, I'm also not saying I would definitely have a problem. However, I have been to tournaments where if your model was deemed to be at all modeled for advantage it was disallowed. My post is simply a heads up to that fact and that you might want to at least use the RB turret to make sure that the guns are not especially longer than they normally are. In an army with no predators I don't think I would be confused by their appearence on the table either, in another marine army the TLLC turret could be confusing as it represents something else entirely. I simply wanted to put it out there that it could be an issue. If I were you I would check less with some random internet community and more with the places you usually play as that is really all that matters. If a TO has a problem with it I hardly think saying that the B&C guys said it was cool would mean anything. It is not that all models need to be 100% alike, it is that they must be similar enough not to provide an advantage to the player using them.

[*Furyou Miko]

Predaback? Razotor? :cuss