Using Predator model as Razorback?

[thade]

There's some merit to what Mr. Wolf Priest is saying here: if you really want to be formal about it you could perform some conversion on the predator turrets so they look more razorback-like (or at least noticeably different from the Baal turret) and that would help with ambiguity. It also shows effort on your part, which comes into play a lot with counts-as. If you simply glue a mass of parts together, don't paint them, and call it a whatever, you'll probably get crap for it. If you clearly paid attention to detail with both bits and paint, people will be more likely to be cool with it. That's been my experience anyway. When I threw a guy together with two power fists and called him Calgar, I got some uh huh's and a few challenges on WYSIWYG; when I carved up some boltgun barrels, stuck them to the fists, gave him an Iron Halo, and trimmed him up with gold, people then started saying "That looks cool! I like the random part," and nobody questioned it.

 

Bottom-line is that it's legal. There are no Predators of any kind in the GK codex; there are no Baal Predators anywhere but in the BA codex; when you put a silver-colored Rhino chassis on the table with a TL-Assault Cannon mounted on it, using the GK codex, it can't be confused for anything else: it fits the bill for WYSIWYG. But I strongly, strongly recommend you take the time to do something to it that makes it clear you tried to convert it. :cuss

 

This isn't a game where anything is ever really 100% like anything else it's supposed to be; really that's part of the appeal, here. This game is friendly with conversions. But that's the thing: you gotta do the conversion. :P

 

EDIT: punctuation

[The Holy Heretic]

However, I have been to tournaments where if your model was deemed to be at all modeled for advantage it was disallowed.

 

Well, the simple answer then, is to just not enter these tournaments then, and instead only play the ones that acknowledge cool models over 'correctness'.

 

- there are stories out there of people arguing against troops disembarking from transports, just because their ramps had been glued shut etc., personally I have no respect for this madness and anything like it.

 

@Wolf Priest, its hardly a matter of 'counts as' or anything like the raider-turning-into-a-talos story. Its a rhino chassis with a gun on top, represented by a rhino chassis with a gun on top. You look at it, reckon it can't be shot by most infantry weapons, and it can shoot back at you - what more do you need to know?

[Zincite]

Now when you do counts-as on the tabletop, that is the same: the suspension of disbelief is broken, the level of depiction that was the basis for immersion is lost. If my mind needs to filter what it sees - ie "This is not a predator, it is a razorback, even though it looks like a predator." - then immersion is a step further away, and that means I do not enjoy the game as much as I would if the razorback were represented by a razorback model instead of a predator model.

I think you just made thoughts into readable text form. How I wish I had that ability.

 

I'll just say I agree with what Haelaeif said. If you're going to do it, at least make it look different, rather than just not gluing the side sponsons onto the model.

[breng77]

Well, the simple answer then, is to just not enter these tournaments then, and instead only play the ones that acknowledge cool models over 'correctness'.

 

- there are stories out there of people arguing against troops disembarking from transports, just because their ramps had been glued shut etc., personally I have no respect for this madness and anything like it.

 

@Wolf Priest, its hardly a matter of 'counts as' or anything like the raider-turning-into-a-talos story. Its a rhino chassis with a gun on top, represented by a rhino chassis with a gun on top. You look at it, reckon it can't be shot by most infantry weapons, and it can shoot back at you - what more do you need to know?

 

Those same tournaments had some of the coolest counts as/ conversion armies I have ever seen. The issue is converting something in a way that it is still within the rules (i.e. not gaining an advantage) I'm not saying as extreme as your doors example, but what if I count a matchbox car for my Rhino as long as it looks cool is it ok? I draw the line at effort for cool models, otherwise what stops me from running say Eldar as Greyknights? The reason to use predator turrets is because you like how predators look, then use predators. What is trying to be done here is "I like Grey Knights, and Razorbacks. I don't like the Razorback model, so I want to use a predator instead" Now having your own aesthetic is fine, but at least put in the effort to model the turret in such a way that you gain no advantage.

 

 

As to the second part of your statement, you need to know that it can carry troops and is not FA 13. I might elect to shoot AV 11 with an auto cannon, but I'm unlikely to shoot that same weapon at AV 13.

[Valerian]

No skin off my nose, especially as GK's can't take Predators anyway so there's no confusion to be had.

 

This. A thousand times, this.

 

 

Modelling for advantage? Seriously? You've got to be joking.

 

Valerian

[thade]

Heh. I guess you gain a quarter inch of range (at most) with the turret bein a lil' longer than the LR TL-AC...but to be fair, neither one is the official TL-AC for the job. Really, both of them are fair-game as there's no official mod for this at all. The one from the LRR/C kit is more accepted...but that's not official. It just falls under the nighthawks quote in my sig.

 

Given how random movement and positioning in this game can be, it's not a notable advantage using one turret over the other, unmodified. Besides, if you modify it like crazy to make it look cool, likely few will complain about it at all.

[breng77]

I am more thinking about the TLLC turret than the TL-AC turret. That said I really have no idea about the difference off the top of my head which is why my original post just said to be sure to check it to make sure it is not an issue. There is an Official TLLC turret, so any departure from this is no longer "official", and as such must do its best to be close to the "official" model.

[Valkyrion]

Not really. If you replace a twin linked lascannon with another twin linked lascannon you have broken no rules. There is no 'official' anything, otherwise the twin linked assault cannon wouldn't be allowed because you are using it from a Land Raider Upgrade Kit, or that Dark Angel you have with a Black Templar bolter wouldn't be allowed because it isn't an official Dark Angel bolter. 'Officially' the Crimson Fist tactical upgrade kit should just be for Crimson Fists, not Imperial Fists...you see how silly it can get when you take 'official' to the nth degree?

It'd be like complaining about a Leman Russ searchlight instead of the supplied one, or chaos smoke launchers instead of imperial ones

 

WYSIWYG - a rhino chassis with a twin linked lascannon on top and no sponsons is a Razorback. In a Grey Knight army it simply cannot be anything else.

[breng77]

Official includes any items that are provided with the model itself as far as size goes. If there is not model provided then you are free to use whatever conversion you would like to use (within reason).

 

WYSIWYG - a rhino chassis with a twin linked lascannon on top and no sponsons is a Razorback. In a Grey Knight army it simply cannot be anything else.

 

For GKs yes, but put that same vehicle in another marine army and then what is it? What if I mount the Lascannon turret on the Front instead of the back? Where do you draw the line? Is there a line at all for you? These are important questions. I draw the line at if the model accurately represents the unit in question while providing no advantage to the player, than it is acceptale. I am willing to stretch this a bit more if effort is put in to convert said unit. Simply taking one turret instead of another requires no effort, which means I am only going to be ok with it so long as no advantage is gained. In the case of the lascannon so long as it is within 1/4 of an inch of the proper turret I would take no issue with it. I agree with an above poster that if it is longer then mount the turret further back to invert the advantage.

 

In addition it matters more for vehicles than infantry where things like length of guns is important. Infatry measure from the base.

[Iron Lord]

"No sponsons" might be less dramatic than- leaving the door on one side open, and the ramp at the back down.

 

With both of these, the "It's a transport" point is made with extra force.

[thecapn226]

I did this on some of my friends space wolves and it looks amazing.

[thecapn226]

I did this on some of my friends space wolves and it looks amazing.