The Fallen Will Win

[jolly rogers]

Hey guys, a long time ago on some forum post, I remember there was a DA player who was forming the fluff for his (non chaos) fallen and he mentioned a brief couple words about possibly storming the rock...

 

Its stayed with me and I would really like to figure out if a scenario of this magnitude could be possible. Mostly, I'm just looking for suggestions from you guys on what this game of epicness would include. I would want to add in a WHOLE bunch of home made rules like silent weapons/ knifing people, tripping the alarm, possibly rolling to see how many DA are currently stationed at the time of the attack etc etc.

 

The whole point is to capture and rescue Astellan. I dont care too much about Luther cuz hes kinda chaos-y and he didnt kill the Lion.... which bring me to my last random question about the Lion.

 

Angels of darkness:

Lion is not joining Imperial Palace battle, so that he can side with who wins

 

 

Horus Heresy novels:

Hes kind of a dick... yeah.

 

 

Age of Darkness (hh novel): The DA story was an INCREDIBLE read. The book is a compilation of stories but even if it was just the DA story and all the rest were twilight fan fiction, I would still have bought it. Never the less,

This story tries to undo the angels of darkness viewpoint and asserts that the lion wants to make it back to Terra but literally cant cuz of warp storms... and he is faced with the realization that everyone will think he was waiting to choose a side.

 

 

I think they are giving proof for both opinions again.... :/ it sucks that its never one way in 40k. SO What do you think? Comments on both are very welcome!

[Brother Nihm]

I am very sorry to burst your bubble but Gav himself stated that the only reason he included that bit in Angels of Darkness was a spur of the moment/what the eff kind of thing. It is mentioned somewhere on his blog. Maybe someone saved a link to it?

 

I liked the Angels of Darkness take on it the most because that gave the Lion depth of character, now he's just a dick.

[Captain Semper]

Well, the two HH novels were in my view a huge waste. The worst thing is that at face value DAs have already two books dedicated to them - making it more difficult for us to expect anything soon... I mean it's not like HH rotated around the DAs - there other Legions that are yet to be explored in detail let alone have two books on them...

 

The Lion was hardly shown in "Decent of Angels" and made to look like an idiot in the finale of "Fallen Angels". In the short story "The Call of the Lion" again he is only indirectly mentioned and shown to be partial towards the Calibanites and distrustful to Terrans :) and in "Savage Weapons" he looks a bit better, as in the deep thinker kind of person, but cannot best Curze in one on one combat! I mean Curze, of all Primarchs! Not Horus, not Fulgrim, not Angron but Curze... :)

 

So yes BL needs to do some justice to the Lion but given the two novels and two short stories in the HH series I've come to dread the next time a book with DA content will hit the shelves!

[Brother Nihm]

but cannot best Curze in one on one combat! I mean Curze, of all Primarchs! Not Horus, not Fulgrim, not Angron but Curze...

Ah but out of all the Primarchs Curze and the Lion share many similarities, primarily their early almost feral states. The main difference I think, is that Curze's savagery is greater due to his very nature and beliefs/character (the Lion was at least taken in at a fairly young age and schooled, Curze fought tooth and nail since day 1). Curze also gave Dorn a sound thrashing (granted, Dorn was unprepared but it truly left a mark on him).

 

What I'm saying is, I approve of the beating that the Lion took and it makes sense, but let us not forget what happened to Curze in the process, he didn't exactly walk away unscathed. :)

[Captain Semper]

but cannot best Curze in one on one combat! I mean Curze, of all Primarchs! Not Horus, not Fulgrim, not Angron but Curze...

Ah but out of all the Primarchs Curze and the Lion share many similarities, primarily their early almost feral states. The main difference I think, is that Curze's savagery is greater due to his very nature and beliefs/character (the Lion was at least taken in at a fairly young age and schooled, Curze fought tooth and nail since day 1). Curze also gave Dorn a sound thrashing (granted, Dorn was unprepared but it truly left a mark on him).

 

What I'm saying is, I approve of the beating that the Lion took and it makes sense, but let us not forget what happened to Curze in the process, he didn't exactly walk away unscathed. :)

 

Yes, well I've discussed this point before (ADB also participated in that discussion over in Warseer) but I'm not convinced. For me the entire scene went the opposite way:

 

 

Curze should have started the fight with the underhand blow in an attempt to quickly gain the upper hand and failing that the Lion should have had the ability to turn it into a more protracted fight gaining the advantage in the end. The ultimate result would have been the same with both Primarchs bruised BUT the Lion would have saved face and establish himself as the top guy in his niche! The noble warrior, the duellist. Like in a Western movie the good guy draws second but gets the bad guy because he is faster.

 

Funny thing is that the overall image of Curze would not be harmed in any way. He could have been saved in the last minute by Sevatar was it? and be done with it. Same end result and everybody's happy. Curze marginally lost in a duel by the best duellist around while the Lion was badly mangled by the underhand actions of his brawler brother.

 

 

Sorry, to me Savage Weapons gave an advantage to Curze he just didn't deserve and the story-line did not demand. As simple as that. In fact the way BL presents the Lion begs the question: Is he the best at anything?

[Azoriel]

Angels of darkness:

Lion is not joining Imperial Palace battle, so that he can side with who wins

 

Angels of Darkness actually doesn't make this claim at all (which is further backed up by the author, who outright states that the source is unreliable) - better to say

Astellan assumes Lion is not joining Imperial Palace battle, so that he can side with who wins

 

 

Horus Heresy novels:

Hes kind of a dick... yeah.

 

More of an idiot than a dick, IMO. I kinda wish they made him more of a dick (and less of an idiot), in keeping with the fluff of him being impersonal and unforgiving (until towards the very end, when he started to learn mercy).

 

Age of Darkness (hh novel): The DA story was an INCREDIBLE read. The book is a compilation of stories but even if it was just the DA story and all the rest were twilight fan fiction, I would still have bought it. Never the less,

This story tries to undo the angels of darkness viewpoint and asserts that the lion wants to make it back to Terra but literally cant cuz of warp storms... and he is faced with the realization that everyone will think he was waiting to choose a side.

 

Again, this is only true if you assume Astellan is not only being completely honest, but can somehow psychically predict what he has no way of knowing on the other side of the galaxy. He was never part of the Lion's "inner circle", after all (yet another concept that could've been included in the HH novels but somehow didn't make it). This story is much truer to Angels of Darkness than the HH novels, where

Astellan openly states that he's rebelling against the Emperor to protect chaos-tainted Caliban

- a direct contradiction to what Astellan says he did in AoD. (While the author states that Astellan's story is skewed, I always assumed this was because of bad assumptions and little fibs on Astellan's part rather than outright lies.)

[shabbadoo]

Astellan bought into the lies. The DA hold the truth trump card- the penitent Luther.

 

Tell him Luther:

 

"I fell to Chaos, and betrayed the Lion, who will one day return and forgive me. So, yes, you were a dupe Astellan. My bad."

 

Of course the DA consider that bad form, and so a captured Fallen must come to the realization of their error on their own(whether they do or not, the result is always the same- a bolt round to the brain). Gotta have the lie be present though, otherwise the chat with Astellan in Angels of Darkness would be irrelevant.

 

As to not being able to get back in time, Horus ordered both Lion and Roboutte to the arse ends of the universe for the very same reason- to keep the most capable commanders away from hindering his plans of overthrowing the Emperor. The increase in the warp storms is what Hours/Chaos would call "hedging one's bet". :cuss

 

Nobody questions the Ultramarines though, because they have nothing to really be secretive about, such that others wouldn't then fixate on it and endlessly question what it could possibly all be about. But we know what the DA secrecy is all about, and we know what the truth of the DA is.

 

 

Just ask Luther.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

I'm not sure why so many people dislike the portrayal of the Lion. He wasn't as much of an idiot as he was someone that couldn't fit in. He might have been ruthless at times, but so was every single conqueror in human history. Notice the parts where he almost confesses that he contemplated death was better than being a "Great Beast". His difficulty in interacting with his brothers in the order. His disinterest in glory over victory. He was, essentially, a socially stunted genius that felt his otherness too strongly. Nowhere was he portrayed as an exceedingly charismatic individual, in fact the contrary was always indicated.

 

Myself, I found him an interesting character, who behaved as someone who spent the beginning of his life in a forest inhabited by nightmarish creatures unable to trust anything other than himself would. It's a testament to his mental capacity that he even managed to interact with humans on a civilized level.

[Brother Degas]

I agree, I think the lion is a more subtle charactor than the rest and full of contradictions, a cold blood pragmatist who is protective of his troops and those under his care.

 

Hes also more deeply flawed than any other loyal primachs as his intial upbringing made him exeedingly self contained and it still haunts him. To describe him as a bit of a dick misses a lot of nuances.

[jolly rogers]

I agree, I think the lion is a more subtle charactor than the rest and full of contradictions, a cold blood pragmatist who is protective of his troops and those under his care.

 

Hes also more deeply flawed than any other loyal primachs as his intial upbringing made him exeedingly self contained and it still haunts him. To describe him as a bit of a dick misses a lot of nuances.

 

That does make alot of sense. But one question is still on my mind:

at the end of Descent of Angels, why does the Lion give a furious look to Zahariel and then send him home. And why does Cypher get sent home. Didnt it say that the Lion knew Cypher was a previous knight of Lupus and chose him for his own purposes? Then why.... kinda send him home for baby sitting if he is such a special asset to the DA?

 

[MadDoc]

That does make alot of sense. But one question is still on my mind:

at the end of Descent of Angels, why does the Lion give a furious look to Zahariel and then send him home.

For now the only person that can really answer that question is the author. Perhaps a later book will shed some more light on things, but as I said, for now, only the author can really say and I haven't read of him making any comments on the issue.

 

And why does Cypher get sent home. Didnt it say that the Lion knew Cypher was a previous knight of Lupus and chose him for his own purposes? Then why.... kinda send him home for baby sitting if he is such a special asset to the DA?

Huh? :P He wasn't sent back since, from what we're told, he never actually left Caliban.

[Phoebus]

About the Lion being a dick... He's not. No offense, maybe it's just different folks coming to different conclusions, but I don't know how one can arrive at such a narrow view. Luther genuinely tries to explain to Zahariel how the Lion's biggest drawback is that he just can't get across to people--they don't even get his sense of humor. That's a byproduct of him growing up feral in a Death World, not being a dick. He has trouble expressing his emotions, but it's not because he doesn't want to be close to others. Look at his statements to Curze in "Savage Weapons":

 

 

It's clear that he recognizes their common bond as individuals who grew up as outsiders, and he specifically thought of him as a friend for that.

 

 

About the Lion being an idiot... Again, he's not. He's arguably the best strategist of all the Primarchs, propaganda and personal legends aside. Remember, Horus had an extra hundred and fifty years to earn his reputation. The Lion shows up, one of the last kids on the team, and almost ends the Heresy before it even really got out of the Isstvan System. I mean...

 

 

... how exactly was he to know that Perturabo was a traitor? Dorn didn't know--he ordered Perturabo to go fight Horus. What, the Lion was going to randomly assume that Perturabo was a traitor when he was heading with three other Legions to squash Horus? With Horus fortifying himself on Isstvan V, was the Lion going to say "Oh, sorry, Perturabo. Even though you're synonymous with siege warfare and you have to break through a fortress that has been described to us as proof to orbital bombardment, I'm just going to have to hold on to these penultimate siege weapons..."

 

 

About the Lion's dirty look to Zahariel... You need to go back to page 255-6 of "Descent of Angels". It's obviously not stated directly, but it does heavily imply that...

 

 

... Luther spilled the beans to the Lion out of guilt over what he almost did. Hence the Lion being pissed at Zahariel and exiling him as well, for not stepping up and telling the truth ahead of time.

 

[Captain Semper]

About the Lion being a dick... He's not. No offense, maybe it's just different folks coming to different conclusions, but I don't know how one can arrive at such a narrow view. Luther genuinely tries to explain to Zahariel how the Lion's biggest drawback is that he just can't get across to people--they don't even get his sense of humor. That's a byproduct of him growing up feral in a Death World, not being a dick. He has trouble expressing his emotions, but it's not because he doesn't want to be close to others. Look at his statements to Curze in "Savage Weapons":

 

 

It's clear that he recognizes their common bond as individuals who grew up as outsiders, and he specifically thought of him as a friend for that.

 

I agree the term "dick" is too harsh.

 

About the Lion being an idiot... Again, he's not. He's arguably the best strategist of all the Primarchs, propaganda and personal legends aside. Remember, Horus had an extra hundred and fifty years to earn his reputation. The Lion shows up, one of the last kids on the team, and almost ends the Heresy before it even really got out of the Isstvan System. I mean...

 

 

... how exactly was he to know that Perturabo was a traitor? Dorn didn't know--he ordered Perturabo to go fight Horus. What, the Lion was going to randomly assume that Perturabo was a traitor when he was heading with three other Legions to squash Horus? With Horus fortifying himself on Isstvan V, was the Lion going to say "Oh, sorry, Perturabo. Even though you're synonymous with siege warfare and you have to break through a fortress that has been described to us as proof to orbital bombardment, I'm just going to have to hold on to these penultimate siege weapons..."

 

Yes that's exactly what I was expecting! That would place him in the "great strategist among Primarchs" level. That would make me stop and think: Wow, this guy is certainly covering all the angles, leaves nothing to chance! So far we only get words as how big a strategist the Lion was. His actions actually diminish him. How was he to know? He didn't have to know. All he had to do was to remain cautious - something that comes naturally to his paranoid nature anyway. Now we have to make excuses: how was he supposed to know; Rerturabo seemed loyal - he had fooled Dorn (as if that was particularly difficult - not that Dorn is naive but he is not known for his distrustfulness as the Lion is known to be); Perturabo had the knowhow to use the hardware better than the rest etc... If he had refused to aid him though we would go: How awesome and farsighted the Lion is to deny the traitors this advantage. He is rightfully considered the big strategist even among his kind!

 

This meeting between the Lion and Perturabo was not previously documented, the author was not bound by existing fluff. So what was the purpose of this entire scene? This was a DAs novel and the HH series is about portaying the Primarchs. So that's how the Lion should be viewed? Brave? sure he is a Primarch and bravery is expected by any scout marine let alone the big guys. The bid strategist? He manages to see some kind of big picture but when he's required to make a true strategic call he blunders... so no.

 

And there is another thing - more of a moral issue: What if Perturabo was indeed loyal but refused to aid the Lion is his weird, ill-timed and out of character request of political (for want of a better word) support? Would he then refuse to aid a fellow Primarch to squash a rebellion? All these things do not add up and just show the Lion in a light that could maybe tolerated if other novels had established his reputation instead of this being a defining story...

 

Sorry but "Fallen Angels" was a BIG fail as regards the portrayal of the Lion.

 

"Savage Weapons" partially restored his moral standing "loyalty is its own reward" n'stuff but diminished his martial prowess... I explained my views on that in my post above.

[Phoebus]

With respect, I completely disagree with your calling that a blunder.

 

The whole "distrustful" bit is a stretch, IMHO. Distrustful of whom? In "Fallen Angels", the Lion makes a point of saying they can't trust those around them (specifically planetary personages and such) because they can't know how far the Heresy has gone--that Horus could have agents anywhere. Surprise, surprise, he's right. Extending that to Perturabo, though, makes no sense. What room would he have to distrust a Primarch whose orders came from the acting Warmaster (Dorn) of a tool needed to prosecute a campaign? He's vetted with a bit more confidence than two guys from a planet holding something Horus really wants, I think. ;)

 

I mean, accusing the Lion of blundering in this case is almost along the same lines of accusing the British leadership in WWII of blundering on the eve of D-Day if for some insane reason the US revealed themselves to actually be Nazi allies.

 

If we're looking for the reason the author used that particular plot device, though, it's because it tied in a number of angles and fit "Fallen Angels" within the greater story line. The authors have an obligation to tie in the various factions that the audience finds interesting. The Dark Angels were always one of the "big four" Chapters, but in the Heresy they really didn't play a role. So how to best do that? Lee figured out one that took into consideration the existing plot line (Loyalists trying to put down the rebels at a time when the true extent of the Heresy was unknown) and threw in a neat twist--tying the chore of having to take down Horus in with the chore of having to take down the Imperial Palace.

 

Was the Lion going to refuse Perturabo if he didn't back his bid? No. That's nuts. The Lion had a bunch of half-ruined ships and less than a hundred Astartes. Perturabo had the bulk of his Legion. Of course the Lion would have fumed over Perturabo not agreeing to support him, but the only logical outcome (assuming Horus had been stopped at Isstvan) would be that Perturabo - already not the most popular of Primarchs - would now have political opposition from the guy who would have been being (ahem) lionized for figuring out the Heresy's ending ahead of everyone else. When you look at it objectively, that only made the Lion look bad before we got to see more of what the Primarchs were really like. Russ ended up being a cunning, manipulative individual who pretended to be a barbarian. Guilliman ended up being a rather cold bastard and was murderously pragmatic enough...

 

 

... to let the whole Imperium go down in order to better position himself.

 

 

Based on all this, by the time the Horus Heresy series is over, the Lion may very well end up looking like a saint for basically saying "Look, random dates of meeting our father aside, I feel like I've demonstrated that I'm the best guy for the job, and I believe things will go better with me at the helm." :yes:

 

Martial prowess-wise... Fair enough. As an objective reader, I can see what the author is saying and recognize his logic: it's a stalemate, and it best serves the "greater good" because (A.) both Primarchs had to live through it and (B.) fans of both factions had to be appeased. The latter was always going to be difficult. As a fan of the Dark Angels, though, of course I was disappointed to not see the Lion win. :(

 

Cheers,

P.

[Captain Semper]

With respect, I completely disagree with your calling that a blunder.

 

No prob - disagreeing is fun :) ! So this is where I disagree myself:

 

The whole "distrustful" bit is a stretch, IMHO. Distrustful of whom? In "Fallen Angels", the Lion makes a point of saying they can't trust those around them (specifically planetary personages and such) because they can't know how far the Heresy has gone--that Horus could have agents anywhere. Surprise, surprise, he's right. Extending that to Perturabo, though, makes no sense. What room would he have to distrust a Primarch whose orders came from the acting Warmaster (Dorn) of a tool needed to prosecute a campaign? He's vetted with a bit more confidence than two guys from a planet holding something Horus really wants, I think. ;)

 

I think the stretch you mention should apply to the "the Lion does not get people". This is used to explain all the other attributes of the Lion. But the "not getting people" should have a limit that if passed it'll just be impossible to fuction in a group let alone being a leader or a great strategist. In fact great strategists are often the ones that "get" people no end. Understaning your opponent's phyche is a big part in winning a conflict - generally speaking. As you mention it is already obivious that the treachery extends outside Horus' legion. The Mechanicum is involved... So a grand strategist, a Primarch no less, that his niche is supposed to be "the big picture guy" AND a paranoid individuial at that is willingly giving away hard fought assets to a person that although not obviously a traitor at the time, he turns out to be one! Sorry this is a blunder.

 

I mean, accusing the Lion of blundering in this case is almost along the same lines of accusing the British leadership in WWII of blundering on the eve of D-Day if for some insane reason the US revealed themselves to actually be Nazi allies.

 

:D . No - if we are to draw a WWII parallel I'd say it looks more like the Munich summit of '38. The Anglo-French trusted somebody they should't have. And when you are in a position of such power the arguement "how was I supposed to know" does not hold water. That's why you are entrusted with this power in the first place - so you know better and cover all the angles... Back in 40k though it is also something that would cement the notion that the Lion was indeed a great strategist. An opportunity to make him dominate this niche. How was he supposed to know? Well because he is an AWESOME strategist. Without knowing for a fact he would not entrust such "game winning" assets to no-one! Especially in the middle of a treachery led by the most "trusted" Primarch that his tendrils proved to reach outside his own legion. A Guard military commander could have argued "how could I know - Perturabo was an Astarted Primach after all" but not the Lion. This was the opportunity to be shown how perceptive he was... And it fails.

 

If we're looking for the reason the author used that particular plot device, though, it's because it tied in a number of angles and fit "Fallen Angels" within the greater story line. The authors have an obligation to tie in the various factions that the audience finds interesting. The Dark Angels were always one of the "big four" Chapters, but in the Heresy they really didn't play a role. So how to best do that? Lee figured out one that took into consideration the existing plot line (Loyalists trying to put down the rebels at a time when the true extent of the Heresy was unknown) and threw in a neat twist--tying the chore of having to take down Horus in with the chore of having to take down the Imperial Palace.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see said Siege Engines actually taking part in the Siege of the Emperor's Palace! This is where they belong anyway. If this happens the entire contribution of the Lion to the Imperial cause would be add some serious guns to the Traitors' firepower!!! Talking about blunders... You see that's the thing about blunders: it's not the action per se but its consequences. A diplomatic treaty in itself could have a number of outcomes but if it ends up in a World War - sorry its signing was inexusable.

 

Was the Lion going to refuse Perturabo if he didn't back his bid? No. That's nuts. The Lion had a bunch of half-ruined ships and less than a hundred Astartes. Perturabo had the bulk of his Legion. Of course the Lion would have fumed over Perturabo not agreeing to support him, but the only logical outcome (assuming Horus had been stopped at Isstvan) would be that Perturabo - already not the most popular of Primarchs - would now have political opposition from the guy who would have been being (ahem) lionized for figuring out the Heresy's ending ahead of everyone else. When you look at it objectively, that only made the Lion look bad before we got to see more of what the Primarchs were really like. Russ ended up being a cunning, manipulative individual who pretended to be a barbarian. Guilliman ended up being a rather cold bastard and was murderously pragmatic enough...

 

 

... to let the whole Imperium go down in order to better position himself.

 

First off the Lion was not bullied in handing over the tanks, he did it willingly. And he did it after closing a deal. That right there is a moral shadow... What would he do if the deal was not made? Sorry it is unclear. When you bargain a deal you are supposedly have something to bargain with. And this were the tanks... So what would happen if the deal was not struck? We just don't know!

 

All Primarchs (both traitor and loyal) have a number of facades - and some are contradictory... but the main attributes are well defined. I'm all for the Lion having a dark side. But one has to first establish his mainstrean abilities, something to compare with his dark side with... A redeeming feature if you like. Even traitor Primarchs have those. Like: he is a great strategist that impeded the progerss of the Traitors in a crucial point BUT he is also ambitious on a personal level... If one does not establish the first -and in my mind this was not achieved in "Fallen Angels"- showing the latter makes him a bafoon.

 

Based on all this, by the time the Horus Heresy series is over, the Lion may very well end up looking like a saint for basically saying "Look, random dates of meeting our father aside, I feel like I've demonstrated that I'm the best guy for the job, and I believe things will go better with me at the helm." :)

 

Well, not based on his actions in "Fallen Angels" he's not. What has he actually done in the big picture that he should be so proud of? I'm confident we'll see more of the Lion and what you said may end up being true - but we need more literature to come to this conclusion...

[Brother Degas]

Sorry if Ive misunderstood cpt Semper but Im jot sure what your arguement is, essentially your saying the lion wasnt a master stratergist becuase he didnt know pertubao was a tratior? Thats a disingenus point at best.

 

Its basically criticising him for not being able to see the future.

 

Stratergy comes from planning and knowing how to use resources, and any plan is going to go wrong at the first stage. The idea his brother primarch was a tratior probably never even crossed his mind, it might be at most naieve but is hardly a tactical blunder.

 

Why wouldnt he trust his brother who had given him non reason to doubt his loyalty?

 

As I said hes a subtle charactor rather than the generic black/white contradiction.

[Captain Semper]

Sorry if Ive misunderstood cpt Semper but Im jot sure what your arguement is, essentially your saying the lion wasnt a master stratergist becuase he didnt know pertubao was a tratior? Thats a disingenus point at best.

 

Its basically criticising him for not being able to see the future.

 

Stratergy comes from planning and knowing how to use resources, and any plan is going to go wrong at the first stage. The idea his brother primarch was a tratior probably never even crossed his mind, it might be at most naieve but is hardly a tactical blunder.

 

Why wouldnt he trust his brother who had given him non reason to doubt his loyalty?

 

As I said hes a subtle charactor rather than the generic black/white contradiction.

 

Well let me put it his way: How does "Fallen Angels" establish the generally accepted fact that the Lion is indeed a great strategist? The ending of the book itself cancels all the efforts he's made up to that point - made him look outsmarted by the traitors...

 

A great strategist must be able to make scenarios of how the future would look like based on his actions today. I think the best term to describe it is "vision". Not that he has to be an Oracle or anything - mind you :D. Just that if the idea that no-one is to be trusted crossed his mind, that would have done the trick. As I said we are now in the realm of making excuses for the guy (how could he know etc) whereas all he needed to do was to be cautious, distrustful... wait a minute, he is actually that - but not in this particular instance where these attributes would come in handy! What he might have thought impossible was actually true! Have you ever been in this position? I have :D! Let me tell you, I felt like a complete idiot! The more senior you are in a command structure the more vision you are expected to have.

 

And he is not just another Imperial Commander: he is a Primarch so you'd expect another level of complexity in his thinking... Something to make him outstanding in his field. It didn't happen in "Fallen Angels"... I'm hoping future books about the Lion will be better in this respect.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Remind me, was his accidental offering of siege weapons to Perturabo established fluff prior to the book?

 

Granted, Pert would get those weapons one way or another. If he didn't get it the "easy" way, he'd get them the hard way.. And then people would be complaining that the Lion was beaten twice. :D

[Brother Degas]

@Semper To a certain degree I agree with you but the rationale is wrong. A master stratigest can have the vision to see how the world will look after their actions, the issue I have is that the lion doesnt understand the reasons for those actions.

 

In the perturbo example he places his best weapons with the best person to use them, its a pragmatic detached approach what he fails to grasp is the "human" motivations, i.e. why would anyone else who is fighting on my side do anything else than or be anything other than loyal?

 

A bit of a stretch here but given his upbringing I doubt the lion had never experienced betrayl so had no reason to even consider it a possibility, thats naieve not a tactical misjudgement, his fundemental plan was sound.

 

In regards to your point I have been in that position and I have indeed looked like an complete tool, but it wasnt due to a lack of vision on my part but a lack of experience in a particular situation, thats what the lion was lacking and could even by why the fall was taken so badly...

 

Hes not paranoid or cautious, just unable to relate to people/primarchs etc due to his genius and upbringing, thats probably why he ignored Russ :D

 

In terms of fluff I think its established that the lion was second only to horus in terms of victories.

[Phoebus]

I think the stretch you mention should apply to the "the Lion does not get people". This is used to explain all the other attributes of the Lion.

I don't want to sound rude (I'm rushed at the time), but I feel like that's an internet meme at best (the idea that the Lion doesn't "get" people).

 

Let me throw you this one at you: did you ever consider that it's Nemiel that doesn't get the Lion? It's established that Astartes are in awe of their Primarchs and have strong emotional reactions to what they do and how they act. There's no bigger drama at the start of the story than the fact that the Warmaster has betrayed the Imperium, and now the Lion has to take actions no one ever thought would be possible.

 

But that whole "doesn't get" people bit comes from Nemiel's perspective and his perspective only. It comes after he's like, "I can't believe he wouldn't trust someone like Governor X, I can't believe he would ask me for a second opinion." But when you look at it objectively, smart people do just that: they ask for second opinions. Hell, Horus had FOUR guys that were supposed to keep him grounded and act as a sounding board for his ideas.

 

So a grand strategist, a Primarch no less, that his niche is supposed to be "the big picture guy" AND a paranoid individuial at that ...

With respect, the Lion is never described as being paranoid. You're super-imposing one scene, conveying the POV of a third person, over his entire character. If he had trouble trusting people, period, you would have seen a much more dramatic way of that surfacing than asking for someone's second opinion. If he had trouble trusting people, then he wouldn't have exactly let the Magos' forces have access to his ships, would he? He would not have allowed the Skitaari and the Dragoons to join up with his forces.

 

You might like the idea of the Lion being overly distrustful and paranoid (I'm not saying that you necessarily DO like that), but the actual examples of his behavior don't reflect that. Similarly, you might like the Lion "not getting people", but "Descent of Angels" qualified that he had charisma enough to win over the various knight lords and launch the biggest Crusade Caliban had ever seen.

 

... is willingly giving away hard fought assets to a person that although not obviously a traitor at the time, he turns out to be one! Sorry this is a blunder.

Sure, if you're psychic, or if someone was showing you evidence of it all along. But when this is not the case, what it's actually called is irony. :(

 

:tu: . No - if we are to draw a WWII parallel I'd say it looks more like the Munich summit of '38. The Anglo-French trusted somebody they should't have.

Sorry, no. By that time, Hitler had violently involved himself in a civil war (Spain), annexed Austria, and was working to do the same with the Sudetenland. More importantly, he was already in violation of enlarging his armed forces and war production. By contrast, Perturabo had gotten in a spat with Rogal Dorn. There was ZERO reason for the Lion to distrust Perturabo.

 

And when you are in a position of such power the arguement "how was I supposed to know" does not hold water. That's why you are entrusted with this power in the first place - so you know better and cover all the angles...

OK, how about this angle? What if Rogal Dorn is also a traitor. He's trying to get as many Legions out to Isstvan so that his cabal of secret traitors (the Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars) can back-stab the seven Legions going to face Horus. So clearly, the Lion should disobey all orders from Rogal Dorn, since, not knowing otherwise, that COULD be true. That's... crazy! :)

 

(the idea, that is... not you)

 

If the Lion had been acting as you claim, he WOULD have been paranoid, but he wouldn't have been acting as a sound strategist at all. Look back to all the "Great Captains" of History--Alexander, Napoleon, Hannibal, etc.--and tell me where you see this sort of behavior. You won't.

 

This was the opportunity to be shown how perceptive he was... And it fails.

Perceptive of what? The unknowable?

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see said Siege Engines actually taking part in the Siege of the Emperor's Palace! This is where they belong anyway. If this happens the entire contribution of the Lion to the Imperial cause would be add some serious guns to the Traitors' firepower!!! Talking about blunders...

No, talk about irony.

 

That's why people despise treason: it undermines and undoes the deeds of others. You can do all the great deeds you like, but if someone else back stabs you, it's for nothing.

 

First off the Lion was not bullied in handing over the tanks, he did it willingly.

I never said he didn't. There's no reason why he shouldn't have.

 

And he did it after closing a deal. That right there is a moral shadow...

And, as stated earlier, the more we learn about the Primarchs, the more we realize they have moral shadows we didn't know of before. You have my examples; I suspect they'll increase by the time the series is done with.

 

What would he do if the deal was not made? Sorry it is unclear. When you bargain a deal you are supposedly have something to bargain with. And this were the tanks... So what would happen if the deal was not struck? We just don't know!

I don't see how it's not clear. The Lion had no way to deny Perturabo the tanks if he didn't go with the deal. It's clearly an attempt to gain political favor (to become the Warmaster). In such deals, it's clear that you reciprocate with political favor from your gained position. Had Perturabo agreed, said position would be that of the Warmaster. As in, "As Warmaster, I understand your pain, Perturabo, and I will no longer require you to keep your Legion divided over these thousands of little outposts." Had Perturabo not agreed, said position would be that of the genius who figured out a way to not only easily beat Horus, but to prevent him from sieging Terra to begin with. As in, "Yeah, that Perturabo... he's been bitching to me about having to leave Iron Warriors at all these outposts, but the Lion reminded me what a braggart and hothead he is. Yeah, I know he fought well at Isstvan V, but remember when he just exploded at Dorn?"

 

Anyways...

 

It's clear we have a fundamental disagreement over what a strategic blunder entails, versus what irony entails. I'm sorry, but there's no way you're going to convince me that the Lion should have distrusted an individual who came vetted by his commanding officer and who had every reason to want the siege guns, given his upcoming mission. Your position presupposes that the Lion "doesn't get" people and that he's paranoid, but the literature doesn't back that up. What it does reflect (and state outright) is that he doesn't show emotion often, probably because he has trouble conveying his positive emotions to people. It shows he is pragmatic and realistic, discerning, analytical, and - where strategy is concerned - absolutely brilliant at figuring out objectives (his and his enemies') and deducing how to best achieve or deny them.

 

"Fallen Angels" perfectly encapsulates that individual.

 

Cheers,

P.

[Arioch]

I completly agree with everything Phoebus has said. Being good at strategy and tactics has nothing to do with knowing who is trustable and who is not. Just think of a guy like Napoleon, how many epic victories he won, and how it didnt worked out in the end, because people he trusted ended up betraying him. Besides the Lion had no way of knowing Perturabo was a traitor. Dorn didnt know, the Emperor didnt know, noone loyal to the Imperium knew.

 

I think Fallen Angels was very fitting to the Dark Angels, at least how I see them. They are tragic heroes. They where just as pure as the finest astartes, masters of strategy, brave as anyone could be. But betrayal nearly ended up destroying them. Thus no matter how hard and cunningly the Lion fought to disrupt Horus´s plans, it is all for nothing because of Perturabos treatchery.

 

This does not make the Lion look stupid in any way, its more like he and his Legion is cursed or tainted. Remember chaos was after him from the beginning.

 

And Phoebus, that thing with Luther in the end of DoA...why didnt I think of that! That would actually explain certain things.

[Captain Semper]

This is getting ridiculsly long but what the hell...

I don't want to sound rude (I'm rushed at the time), but I feel like that's an internet meme at best (the idea that the Lion doesn't "get" people).

You don't sound rude, but if you're rushed you can always answer later when you're more relaxed. It's not like we are on a time limit or something... :)

Let me throw you this one at you: did you ever consider that it's Nemiel that doesn't get the Lion? It's established that Astartes are in awe of their Primarchs and have strong emotional reactions to what they do and how they act. There's no bigger drama at the start of the story than the fact that the Warmaster has betrayed the Imperium, and now the Lion has to take actions no one ever thought would be possible.

 

The reader is invited into the story from Nemiel's and Zachariel's view points. In fact I find it completely flawed that the story should be told from the viewpoint of two lesser knights who by their very position would not interact with the Lion too much... Where is our own version of Loken? You know someone that is close enough with the Primarch (not a "historic" figure like say Abbaddon or indeed Luther but at this approximate level) to give us a better insight? The two books are spent with two completely uninvolving characters that frankly I couldn't care less if they lived or died. Huge waste. Anyway...

 

The start of the book is mostly fine. Although something I find irritating is that although the Warmaster was held in awe by everybody for his strategic and martial skills, noone is giving him credit that maybe, just maybe, he had an ace up his sleeve. Everybody assumes he decided to take on 17 legions on his own... Even the Lion is quick to discount the ultimate demise of Horus and moved on the the next stage of "Who's your Warmaster now?". In this respect it is satisfying that this arrogance is met with furhter dissapointment. But it shouldn't be there in the first place (the arrogance that is). The Lion should have given it some thought a great strategist that he supposedly is and be very cautious. He thought of a great plan, he executed it and because of his inability to grasp the size of the treachery he swiftly cancelled it by his own actions.

 

The question is not whether he was justified in trusting Perturabo but rather would it be completely unjustified if he were not to? I say that would have made the difference between a smart officer and an awesome Primarch. Unfortunately the author pointed to the former... pity.

 

But that whole "doesn't get" people bit comes from Nemiel's perspective and his perspective only. It comes after he's like, "I can't believe he wouldn't trust someone like Governor X, I can't believe he would ask me for a second opinion." But when you look at it objectively, smart people do just that: they ask for second opinions. Hell, Horus had FOUR guys that were supposed to keep him grounded and act as a sounding board for his ideas.

 

As opposed to who elses perspective? Nemiel perspective is the one offered to the reader. And good point about Horus. The Lion has no one (except Luther and look where that got him). In fact Horus is very well described in the series (thank God because if that failed then the whole series would have suffered). The Lion is not described as an idiot throughout the book. That would make it easy to dismiss it and we would not have this conversation now. It is the last scene I mostly have a problem with.

 

With respect, the Lion is never described as being paranoid. You're super-imposing one scene, conveying the POV of a third person, over his entire character. If he had trouble trusting people, period, you would have seen a much more dramatic way of that surfacing than asking for someone's second opinion. If he had trouble trusting people, then he wouldn't have exactly let the Magos' forces have access to his ships, would he? He would not have allowed the Skitaari and the Dragoons to join up with his forces.

Well he is. Overlapping fleets? Sending a Calibanite to look after a Terran? Sending 500 marines to Caliban without any real accusation or explicit reason? Being paranoid doesn't make one (necessarily) a wacko. But assuming he was in fact wrong to trust supposedly trustworthy individuals at least you'd think he'd learn. And stop.

 

You might like the idea of the Lion being overly distrustful and paranoid (I'm not saying that you necessarily DO like that), but the actual examples of his behavior don't reflect that. Similarly, you might like the Lion "not getting people", but "Descent of Angels" qualified that he had charisma enough to win over the various knight lords and launch the biggest Crusade Caliban had ever seen.

 

Here I think we have a misunderstanding. Although I like the idea that the Lion is paranoid (and he is) this "he doesn't get people" thing annoys me no end. I wouldn't mind it if it was a minor attribute to his character - something to even have some humorous value - but this is getting out of hand. The whole Luther story line can be attributed to this characteristic. I just dislike it. He has charisma alright. There is no question about that. Although this would be evident only to the people close to him -his Inner Circle if you like… The politics in DoA were handled mostly by Luther and the rest of the knightly orders were convinced by the Lions authority due to his success in the battlefield. The only time mentioned where the Lion took upon himself to conduct politics led to the confrontation and ultimate demise of the Knights Lupus. Maybe this was intentional. That’s why it was left to him to handle.

 

Sure, if you're psychic, or if someone was showing you evidence of it all along. But when this is not the case, what it's actually called is irony. ;)

OK, noone claims he should be a Farseer :). At this point though and given his character in general I'd expect him to be waaay more cautious... Everything is falling apart, the Warmaster turned traitor, the treachery extends to the Machanicum and the military and he is to make a call on handing significant assets to another Primarch. He could have done what he did and here we are arguing in his defence... OR he could have dazzled us all by showing us what an awesome Primarch he is and refrain from handing over the tanks... because hey, no one is to be trusted! And he'd be right too! Besides the tanks were not instrumental for winning or losing the battle on Istvaan. So far as I know they were never mentioned before or since! And surely had Perturabo been loyal would not need them to win… They might have made his life easier but that would be about it. Besides the original plan was to deny the Warmaster said engines not to immediately deploy them against him. It would be ironic if they were to be succesfully deployed against Horus since he gave the order for their creation but not necessary in order to beat him (assuming he was the only traitor).

 

Sorry, no. By that time, Hitler had violently involved himself in a civil war (Spain), annexed Austria, and was working to do the same with the Sudetenland. More importantly, he was already in violation of enlarging his armed forces and war production. By contrast, Perturabo had gotten in a spat with Rogal Dorn. There was ZERO reason for the Lion to distrust Perturabo.

 

The fact that Dorn trusted Perturabo doesn't cut it for me. The Emperor trusted Horus. So what? Question is who would the Lion trust? And he is trusting the wrong guy. He was not made to trust him, he was not even ordered to trust him; He just did because... I don't know, he thought it was a smart political thing to do?

 

OK, how about this angle? What if Rogal Dorn is also a traitor. He's trying to get as many Legions out to Isstvan so that his cabal of secret traitors (the Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars) can back-stab the seven Legions going to face Horus. So clearly, the Lion should disobey all orders from Rogal Dorn, since, not knowing otherwise, that COULD be true. That's... crazy! :)

 

Well Dorn being a Traitor is not really probable due to his location in the Imperial Palace (unless of course the Emperor is kind of dense). But the rest yes. Just because we know now who's loyal and who's not at the time it should have been paranoia supreme! The Warmaster had turned for crying out loud! In "False Gods" Loken is shaken by the fact that a compliant world could have rebelled! Imagine what would be like if the Warmaster himself turned! If anyone should be cautious that would be the Lion. And he was NOT ordered by Dorn or anybody to hand the tanks over. It was his own decision.

 

(the idea, that is... not you)

Big assumption here :D

 

No, talk about irony.

That's why people despise treason: it undermines and undoes the deeds of others. You can do all the great deeds you like, but if someone else back stabs you, it's for nothing

 

Yes, irony too... Misplaced and unnecessary but yes, irony too.

 

I never said he didn't. There's no reason why he shouldn't have.

 

Sorry I thought you mentioned the balance of power at the moment of the bargain where Perturabo had an obvious advantage, implying that had Perturabo wanted it he could take them by force if necessary. Maybe I misread that.

 

And, as stated earlier, the more we learn about the Primarchs, the more we realize they have moral shadows we didn't know of before. You have my examples; I suspect they'll increase by the time the series is done with.

 

And as I said earlier I’m fine with it, provided there is another side to his character to make him ambiguous… If you just show him as a glory hound he is kind of one dimensional.

 

I don't see how it's not clear. The Lion had no way to deny Perturabo the tanks if he didn't go with the deal. It's clearly an attempt to gain political favor (to become the Warmaster). In such deals, it's clear that you reciprocate with political favor from your gained position. Had Perturabo agreed, said position would be that of the Warmaster. As in, "As Warmaster, I understand your pain, Perturabo, and I will no longer require you to keep your Legion divided over these thousands of little outposts." Had Perturabo not agreed, said position would be that of the genius who figured out a way to not only easily beat Horus, but to prevent him from sieging Terra to begin with. As in, "Yeah, that Perturabo... he's been bitching to me about having to leave Iron Warriors at all these outposts, but the Lion reminded me what a braggart and hothead he is. Yeah, I know he fought well at Isstvan V, but remember when he just exploded at Dorn?"

 

This is what I was referring earlier about bullying. Of course he had a choice. Not agree to give the tanks away. He was asked to give them, which means he could have said yes (he did) or no. Under the assumption that Perturabo was loyal he had no reason to deny the tanks. In fact that could be seen as treasonous in itself. So why the deal? If he thought that maybe no one is to be trusted at this time (and he’d be right) he should have denied the tanks at least for the time being. So again why the deal? This was a very shallow and unwarranted plot line.

 

Anyways...

 

It's clear we have a fundamental disagreement over what a strategic blunder entails, versus what irony entails. I'm sorry, but there's no way you're going to convince me that the Lion should have distrusted an individual who came vetted by his commanding officer and who had every reason to want the siege guns, given his upcoming mission. Your position presupposes that the Lion "doesn't get" people and that he's paranoid, but the literature doesn't back that up. What it does reflect (and state outright) is that he doesn't show emotion often, probably because he has trouble conveying his positive emotions to people. It shows he is pragmatic and realistic, discerning, analytical, and - where strategy is concerned - absolutely brilliant at figuring out objectives (his and his enemies') and deducing how to best achieve or deny them.

"Fallen Angels" perfectly encapsulates that individual.

 

The Lion making a blunder was the irony. As I said before it is not the action per se but the consequences. And the consequence is that the Lion gave the tanks to the traitors. This was the big contribution of the novel to the 40k fluff. Was that necessary? Does this make the Lion what? The strategist he is supposed to be? The big picture guy? Oh and him being paranoid and not getting people? It is an integral part of his character. And as they say: “just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean that everybody is not out to get me!” :).

 

Although not the first novel about DAs, this is the first novel where we actually see the Lion in action. The defining book if you like. The equivalent of “Horus Rising”. Is this how we need to see the Lion introduced? I think not. The story could have ended with the Lion’s victory – although that too would be pretty mundane. But what if the Lion showed a level of perception above that of the common man? The whole story as it stands now could have been executed by a trusted lieutenant while the Lion would be in his Battle Barge still doing the Great Crusade thing. Said Lt would have done the same stuff (more or less). OK the battle scenes might be toned down a notch but I got the distinct feeling that they were actually stretched in order to make them worthy of a Primarch in the first place.

 

Overall the book fails in assigning to the Lion the “Primarch” factor.

[Brother Degas]

Although not the first novel about DAs, this is the first novel where we actually see the Lion in action. The defining book if you like. The equivalent of “Horus Rising”. Is this how we need to see the Lion introduced? I think not. The story could have ended with the Lion’s victory – although that too would be pretty mundane. But what if the Lion showed a level of perception above that of the common man? The whole story as it stands now could have been executed by a trusted lieutenant while the Lion would be in his Battle Barge still doing the Great Crusade thing. Said Lt would have done the same stuff (more or less). OK the battle scenes might be toned down a notch but I got the distinct feeling that they were actually stretched in order to make them worthy of a Primarch in the first place.

 

 

So basically the problem is its a bad book?

[Captain Semper]

So basically the problem is its a bad book?

 

Yeap.

[Piousservant]

Sure, if you're psychic, or if someone was showing you evidence of it all along. But when this is not the case, what it's actually called is irony. ;)

OK, noone claims he should be a Farseer ;). At this point though and given his character in general I'd expect him to be waaay more cautious... Everything is falling apart, the Warmaster turned traitor, the treachery extends to the Machanicum and the military and he is to make a call on handing significant assets to another Primarch. He could have done what he did and here we are arguing in his defence... OR he could have dazzled us all by showing us what an awesome Primarch he is and refrain from handing over the tanks... because hey, no one is to be trusted! And he'd be right too! Besides the tanks were not instrumental for winning or losing the battle on Istvaan. So far as I know they were never mentioned before or since! And surely had Perturabo been loyal would not need them to win… They might have made his life easier but that would be about it. Besides the original plan was to deny the Warmaster said engines not to immediately deploy them against him. It would be ironic if they were to be succesfully deployed against Horus since he gave the order for their creation but not necessary in order to beat him (assuming he was the only traitor).

 

 

Sorry, but it doesn't make sense to claim that the Lion needs to be mind reader to be an "awesome" Primarch. There is no sound reason for him to refuse to hand the seige engines to Perturabo, the problem is you are applying your own knowledge/hindsight to the picture. Sure "as it turns out" if he had refused to give Perturabo the weapons it would have gone better. But what if had been Ferrus Manus? Then rather than an "awesome" Primarch, everyone would be saying "Gee, that Lion is a total dick - if he had agreed to give Ferrus Manus those seige weapons maybe Ferrus wouldn't have been killed and all of his veterans wiped out..."

 

And I think you're missing quite how impossible the Heresy seemed to the Loyalists, you're saying that the Lion should have expected there to be other Legions in league with the Warmaster but literally nobody considers that. One of the notable things with the Heresy, IMO, is how suprised the Loyalists are by each treachery in turn. I don't see why the Lion should or could be different. I don't think that makes him less of a Primarch.

 

 

 

And personally, him handing the seige engines to Perturabo was one of the few momements in DoA/FA that I actually liked... And I'm a Dark Angels player... :P