The Fallen Will Win

[Phoebus]

The reader is invited into the story from Nemiel's and Zachariel's view points. In fact I find it completely flawed that the story should be told from the viewpoint of two lesser knights who by their very position would not interact with the Lion too much... Where is our own version of Loken? You know someone that is close enough with the Primarch (not a "historic" figure like say Abbaddon or indeed Luther but at this approximate level) to give us a better insight? The two books are spent with two completely uninvolving characters that frankly I couldn't care less if they lived or died. Huge waste. Anyway...

I agree with you 100% here. I should probably qualify something: I don't necessarily think "Fallen Angels" was this great book... I just don't that either it, or "Descent of Angels" portray the Lion as a dick or as incompetent. In fact, it's precisely BECAUSE I don't find Nemiel to be a reliable narrator (that, and other evidence that contradicts his POV) that I disagree with his assessments.

 

The start of the book is mostly fine. Although something I find irritating is that although the Warmaster was held in awe by everybody for his strategic and martial skills, noone is giving him credit that maybe, just maybe, he had an ace up his sleeve. Everybody assumes he decided to take on 17 legions on his own... Even the Lion is quick to discount the ultimate demise of Horus and moved on the the next stage of "Who's your Warmaster now?". In this respect it is satisfying that this arrogance is met with furhter dissapointment. But it shouldn't be there in the first place (the arrogance that is). The Lion should have given it some thought a great strategist that he supposedly is and be very cautious. He thought of a great plan, he executed it and because of his inability to grasp the size of the treachery he swiftly cancelled it by his own actions.

I really don't see how you get this from "Fallen Angels". No one gives him credit? Taking on 17 Legions on his own?

 

‘The Warmaster Horus and his Legion have renounced their oaths of allegiance, along with Primarch Angron’s World Eaters, Mortarion’s Death Guard and Fulgrim’s Emperor’s Children.

So, right off the bat, four Legions against fourteen.

 

‘The reasons for the Warmaster’s rebellion are unclear, but the magnitude of his actions cannot be overstated. News of the rebellion has spread like a cancer through the sector and beyond,’ Jonson said, ‘re-igniting old tensions and territorial ambitions. Some governors have openly declared for Horus, while others see the rebellion as an opportunity to build petty empires of their own. In the short space of just two and a half months, Imperial authority in the Ultima Segmentum has been severely compromised, and dissent is beginning to spread into Segmentum Solar as well.'

...

‘It’s likely that agents loyal to the Warmaster are operating all across both Segmenta, helping fuel the growing dissent. Note how the outbreaks of lawlessness spread from system to system along the most stable warp routes leading back to Terra, the direction from which any large-scale retaliation is certain to originate.’

 

‘As soon as word of the Warmaster’s rebellion reached Terra, the Emperor began assembling a punitive force to confront the rebel Legions and take Horus into custody,’ Jonson continued gravely. ‘According to the despatch we received, a full seven Legions, led by Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands, are en route to Isstvan, but it will be at least another four to six months before they arrive. In the meantime, Horus has redeployed his forces to Isstvan V, and is in the process of fortifying the planet in anticipation of the coming attack.’

...

‘The next few months are going to be crucial for Horus and the rebel Legions,’ ... ‘The Warmaster knows that the Emperor will respond with all the force he has available. I now believe that our deployment to the Shield Worlds was part of an effort to scatter the Imperium’s most loyal servants as far as possible in order to minimize the number of Legions he would have to face at any given time. Even so, a strike force of seven full Legions poses a dire threat to Horus’s survival; surviving a planetary siege from such a force, let alone defeating it, will require transforming Isstvan V into a veritable fortress world. That will require an enormous amount of supplies and equipment on very short notice – the sort of materiel that only a fully-operational forge world can provide.’

There is absolutely no indication he is underestimating Horus or his forces. He is explicitly outlining all the known factors to his subordinates and painting a clear strategic picture to them. At no point is he waxing about how Horus will be defeated soon, etc. He indicates their own shortfalls and identifies an objective that is crucial to Horus--one that they can take on.

 

But do you still want one better? His whole reason for being where he was in "Fallen Angels" was to safeguard certain assets that could only be used if Horus managed to make it out of Isstvan! The Lion was literally the ONLY Primarch who is stated as looking toward that contingency. Dorn (and, through him, the Emperor), Ferrus, Vulkan, and even Corax were literally putting all their eggs in one basket: beating Horus in a straight up battle at Isstvan. The Lion said "that's great, and I hope you win, and I wish I could be there, but ASSUMING Horus--supposedly the greatest general ever, but I know better--makes it out of Isstvan, he NEEDS these assets to actually siege Terra and win. I'm going to take those from him and make his whole Heresy un-winnable."

 

The question is not whether he was justified in trusting Perturabo but rather would it be completely unjustified if he were not to? I say that would have made the difference between a smart officer and an awesome Primarch. Unfortunately the author pointed to the former... pity.

Yes, he would have been unjustified. I'm not sure if you've ever served in any military force, but you don't just get to choose who you're going to trust from within your ranks. Again, if you feel like the Lion was justified to distrust Perturabo, then why even take it for granted that Dorn or any other Primarch was still loyal? You're imposing your hindsight view on matters that no one could have foreseen (within the constraints of the novel).

 

As opposed to who elses perspective? Nemiel perspective is the one offered to the reader.

But it's not necessarily the CORRECT one. Is that a failing of the novel? Sure. I don't dispute that.

 

Well he is. Overlapping fleets? Sending a Calibanite to look after a Terran?

How is having two Chapters in the same task force a matter of paranoia? Most of the novels thus far have shown forces comprised of several Chapters, Grand Companies, etc., at a given time. "Call of the Lion" in no way states that Astellan was being "looked after". The whole "Calibanite over Terran" bit was one of Astellan's own complaints from "Angels of Darkness". We saw how accurate that was.

 

Sending 500 marines to Caliban without any real accusation or explicit reason?

It's practically spelled out for you. Luther was exiled for his actions near the end of "Descent of Angels". But you don't exactly want to crush the morale of half your Legion (who hold Luther to be the second greatest man on their planet) by executing him (especially when he came forth and admitted his errors), so you cook up a rouse to conceal his punishment: helping out with the recruitment bit on Caliban. Sending Luther back alone wouldn't make any sense, though. You'd need to increase the cadre size as well. Hence your 500 Calibanite Astartes--Calibanite because they would have a greater rapport with the land and the people (theoretically).

 

Being paranoid doesn't make one (necessarily) a wacko.

Actually, it does.

 

Paranoia, per clinical psychology, denotes a "disorder which has been argued in and out of existence, and whose clinical features, course, boundaries, and virtually every other aspect of which is controversial."

 

But assuming he was in fact wrong to trust supposedly trustworthy individuals at least you'd think he'd learn. And stop.

And it's exactly that kind of thought process that eventually leads to the mental illness outlined above. That is, the idea that you can superimpose the negative actions of one individual, and the negative expectations you developed from that experience, to everyone else.

 

Bottom line, it's tragic and ironic that the Lion trusted Perturabo, since that ended up hurting the very Imperium he was trying to help. It's also tragic and ironic that, despite identifying the way he could end the Heresy at its ground stage, the Lion was deceived as he was. Your argument, though, is that this could have been prevented if only he'd exercised distrust without cause or proof at just the right time. That makes no sense. It's just hindsight 20-20.

 

Here I think we have a misunderstanding. Although I like the idea that the Lion is paranoid (and he is) ...

He's not. There's no evidence of it. He trusts Perturabo. He trusts both the governor and the Magos under far more strained circumstances than meeting a brother Primarch. In "Savage Weapons", he's even willing to trust Curze to play by the rules of their truce for their meeting. No one who was paranoid or even routinely distrustful of people could operate thusly. What the Lion is is realistic and pragmatic. He's not too stuck up to not ask for a second opinion. He realizes his fleet is crippled without the aid of the Mechanicus and offers them access to it. A paranoid person would only have thought of how letting people have access to his fleet could have caused such damage as to make the offer of assistance moot. He understands that if the Crusade on the Shield Worlds has a realistic chance of ending, he had to take Curze at his word... but he also takes precautions.

 

OK, noone claims he should be a Farseer :). At this point though and given his character in general I'd expect him to be waaay more cautious... Everything is falling apart, the Warmaster turned traitor, the treachery extends to the Machanicum and the military and he is to make a call on handing significant assets to another Primarch. He could have done what he did and here we are arguing in his defence... OR he could have dazzled us all by showing us what an awesome Primarch he is and refrain from handing over the tanks... because hey, no one is to be trusted!

That's exactly what you're asking for, though--to be a Farseer. Otherwise, there's no excuse for doing so. Dorn trusted Perturabo. The Emperor trusted Perturabo. Malcador trusted Perturabo. Ferrus, Vulkan, and Corax trusted Perturabo. If the Lion had kept those assets from Perturabo AND he had not turned traitor, the Lion should have been prosecuted.

 

Besides the tanks were not instrumental for winning or losing the battle on Istvaan. So far as I know they were never mentioned before or since! And surely had Perturabo been loyal would not need them to win… They might have made his life easier but that would be about it.

See "Fulgrim". The fortress Horus occupies on Isstvan V is such that he would be proof to orbital bombardments. As for being mentioned since? Why would they be? Perturabo didn't need to use them on Isstvan because he wasn't sieging anyone. The next time we'll hear from them will probably be at the Siege of Terra.

 

Besides the original plan was to deny the Warmaster said engines not to immediately deploy them against him.

I hate to sound like a dead horse, but I really think you need to re-read "Fallen Angels". The Lion's reasons for getting those artillery pieces is to prevent Horus from using them, yes. That logic (correctly) assumes that Horus won't wait for that battle to be over before he sends forces to get them. From the second that the Loyalist forces have consolidated successfully, though, there's no reason to just hold on to them. Especially when it is known that Horus is sitting under a badass fortress.

 

t that Dorn trusted Perturabo doesn't cut it for me. The Emperor trusted Horus. So what?

"So what?" One of the central plot points of the Heresy is that the Emperor becomes fallible cause the Warp cuts off his "omniscience". He is unable to discern the coming tides, or the conspiracies around him. That's precisely why he couldn't trust Magnus when he got that warning.

 

Question is who would the Lion trust? And he is trusting the wrong guy. He was not made to trust him, he was not even ordered to trust him; He just did because... I don't know, he thought it was a smart political thing to do?

Because he had no reason to distrust him! :D

 

Your logic seems to be based on the idea that betrayal happens, and as a result everyone needs to stop trusting one another. This is in jest, but I'm very glad you weren't part of, say, the United States Continental Army around the time of our revolution. Benedict Arnold--one of our best commanders--turning traitor was obviously a shocker, but I'm super glad George Washington and his subordinates found it in themselves to trust each other and ultimately secure victory for our fledgling nation. Or, from the other side of my ethnicity, I'm glad that even though Demaratos, one of the two kings of Sparta during the Persian Wars, fled to the court of the Achaemenid kings, the rest of the Greeks found it in themselves to trust the city-state capable of providing the best infantry troops to fight the invaders... ;)

 

Yes, irony too... Misplaced and unnecessary but yes, irony too.

That... makes no sense. Treason is an action. Irony is just something that you feel. ;)

 

This is what I was referring earlier about bullying. Of course he had a choice. Not agree to give the tanks away. He was asked to give them, which means he could have said yes (he did) or no. Under the assumption that Perturabo was loyal he had no reason to deny the tanks. In fact that could be seen as treasonous in itself. So why the deal? If he thought that maybe no one is to be trusted at this time (and he’d be right) he should have denied the tanks at least for the time being. So again why the deal? This was a very shallow and unwarranted plot line.

To each their own.

 

The Lion making a blunder was the irony. As I said before it is not the action per se but the consequences. And the consequence is that the Lion gave the tanks to the traitors. This was the big contribution of the novel to the 40k fluff. Was that necessary?

I'm not saying it was.

 

Does this make the Lion what? The strategist he is supposed to be? The big picture guy

It doesn't take anything away from him. He showed his strategic genius. He read the course of an entire war and the minimum that was needed to win it--for both sides. He acted on that, successfully. Your argument is that someone else's betrayal can cancel all that out. That's not the case. No one had a reason to distrust Perturabo, and military forces simply can't function with the mentality you assume necessary.

 

Oh and him being paranoid and not getting people? It is an integral part of his character.

Earlier, you were saying you can't stand the "not getting" people. Either way, neither that or the paranoia stand the test of examination.

 

And as they say: “just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean that everybody is not out to get me!” :).

Actually, that's what paranoia entails. ;)

 

Cheers,

P.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Forgive me if this point has already been made, I can't be arsed to read everything.

 

Black Library Novels: Cool, but some contradict themselves. They are fan fiction only, unless the GW mades it vanilla later on.

Codex: Vanilla.

 

Now, does the codex not show the Lion outsmarting Leman Russ, and then proving to be equal in a test of strength? A more funny point: did the Lion not KO Leman Russ when he decided to stop fighting?

[Captain Semper]

@ Phoebus: This is a very interesting conversation but I think we've pretty much explained our views. Trying to convince each other that we actually should have liked/disliked the book is just not happening (but we knew that from the beginning ;) ).

 

I'll make a few points of order just to conclude and I'm done in this thread. If you'd like to discuss it further (and I'll be happy to continue because as I said, I'm finding it enjoyable) please PM me.

 

I had actually forgotten about the part that the Lion had acknowledged that there are already allies to Horus. This is not making the Lion look any smarter (it would if this was not solid intelligence and he just were to work under the assumption that more Legions have turned) but in fact reinforces my view that since four Primarchs have turned no one was to be trusted - especially by an individual that has issues with trust in the first place. Also as I said earlier the beginning of the book was kind of promising. The Lion sees a strategic opportunity and given he does not want to disrupt his running campaign at the time (he thought four Legions rebelling was not a good enough reason? - anyway) and transfer his bulk of warriors to Isstvan he choose to do a commando operation instead. That's (almost) fine.

 

Regarding his general attitude within the Legion: YES he is having some of his leutenants being looked after by other leutenants. Overlapping fleets were not a matter of sound strategy - especially if the commanders of said fleets were not aware of the presence or purpose of the other allied fleet in question! The theme of distrustfulness permiates (sp?) the Unforgiven to the current timeline. It is evident the Lion did not trust several individuals withing his Legion. Rightly or wrongly that is literrally thrown in our faces. He sends them to Caliban as a result of real or perceived trangression (we do not know the story of all of them yet) but in the eyes of the ostracized Marines this behaviour is inexplicable (with the sole exception of Luther). It's not like they realize they've done some thing wrong that deserve to be set aside... The Lion just decides for his own reasons. And they are not all Calibanite - where did you get that? Astellan isn't for one. Nor is Israfael - but I get the distinct feeling that the latter was an agent of the Lion - and a Terran. And this epitomises the whole attitude of the Lion. Astellan does not beleive he deserves any punishment for his actions. The Lion does not confront him or directly accuse him or sentence him. He just takes him out of the picture. As he did with the rest of the ostracized group for reasons that are not explained to us. And if you beleive that the Lion wasted 500 perfectly good marines just to save Luther's face, then we do have very different starting points.

 

On Paranoia form wikipedia: " Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself. "

 

I think that irrationality or delusion is NOT the case but the rest describe the Lion perfectly well. And my humorous comment (I thought the smiley would have done the trick) regarding the common saying well it was just that. (but maybe you answered in the same vein and I missed it...)

 

Regarding the hindsight and the tragic irony: the entire HH series is a tragic irony (in Greek ancient drama terms) as the reader knows how it ends while the protagonists don't. The author knows that the reader knows the big picture and how it all ends. What the authors try to do is shed more light on details and give the whole background a pseudo-historic facade. This is welcome and fun but it is not written in stone. The entire ending of the particular book could be different and there was nothing to prevent the author giving it a different spin. The author chose this ending as he could have chosen another... Justification of a character's actions is always a matter of debate in fiction (and reality) but in this particular setting where you deal with Primarchs there is a lot of room to do things the way you intend to. Tragic irony was not they way to go in this novel. It just takes something away from the Lion - making him aid Chaos - for no reason at all. It's writing a book and developing characters all along and in the last page kill them off. What was the point of the book anyway? (at least the half about the Lion).

 

The fact that everybody trusted Perurabo is not in anyway binding. Everybody trusted Horus remember? The question is who would the Lion trust. And the Lion is a Primarch - not just General. He can do things he beleives right without thinking what Dorn or anybody else thinks. Loyalty is it's own reward - remember? And he is not under direct orders to hand over the tanks anyway. His loyalty is to the Emperor and he'll pursue it the best way he can. It's a pity that the story shows his best way was to be duped.

 

To carry on your jest, I have to tell you that I'm glad too I wasn't part of the American Revolution Army because then we'd have some real military blunders as examples in this conversation :blink:! Judging from my tabletop achievements anyway... ;) However this is about the Lion being distrustful - not me, not George Washington and not the ancient Greeks...

 

I agree that we probably will see the tanks in the Siege of Terra. My comment that we have not heard of them before or since was not implying that we should but was rather a point that they are not an integral part of the background. They were invented for this story. Hence the author could do what he liked with them e.g. not even put Perturabo in the picture in the first place.

 

Regarding me re-reading the Fallen Angels: why? are you gonna pay me? ;) Seriously though why? The original plan was to confiscate the tanks. That's what i said. How does this contradict the book to the point I need to re-read it?

 

And just because you mention the military service I have to tell you that yes, I did military service for 23 months. It's compulsory over here. Didn't learn much about Primarchs though but I did learn a couple of things about submarines... ;). In any case the Primarchs are not the "military". They are demi-Gods that see themselves ultimately answerable to the Emperor (the loyal ones anyway). Sure there is seniority (Horus was the Warmaster after all) but expecting blind obedience? From a Primarch? Really? The whole HH series is about how highly individaulistic the Primarchs are. Can you see Russ being docile? or Fulgrim? or anybody? or the Lion?

 

Finally the "not getting people" is an integral part of the Lion's character AND I happen to dislike it. Just because I dislike it doesn't make it go away. If only...

 

Anyway, as i said this conversation will not lead to me liking the book or you disliking it (more). We have our views. Hopefully the next book about the Lion would reach a wider consensus but one can only hope...

 

@ Azrael Turnbull: There used to be a debate of whether BL books are "official" lore or not but these days the consensus is that in fact BL is official lore. The argument behind it is that since BL falls under, and gets the approval of GW IP then it is as "official". So whatever happens in the BL books is part of the background, vague and contradicting as it may be.

[Phoebus]

Semper,

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on some things. It has been nice exchanging points of view, and I appreciate your kind tone and candor. Ultimately, though, I really feel you're misinterpreting information given in the novels, or maybe remembering it incorrectly:

 

The Lion sees a strategic opportunity and given he does not want to disrupt his running campaign at the time...

From "Fallen Angels", pg 29:

 

‘The Warmaster’s treachery caught all of us off-guard – just as he intended it to do,’ Jonson said. His voice took on a cold, angry edge. ‘At this stage, our forces are too deeply enmeshed here in the Shield Worlds to respond quickly to Horus’s treachery; the best estimates of my staff indicate that it would take us nearly eight months to conclude our offensive operations, even on an emergency basis, and re-position ourselves for a strike against Isstvan. Even if we could move more quickly, Horus’s agents would be able to alert the Warmaster in time to organise a counter-move.'

 

So no, it's not as if the Lion doesn't want to disrupt his campaign. Timeliness is the issue at hand.

 

YES he is having some of his leutenants being looked after by other leutenants.

Cite your source, please. I've read "Call of the Lion" quite a few times, and I can't see even a hint of that being offered by the author (?).

 

... especially if the commanders of said fleets were not aware of the presence or purpose of the other allied fleet in question!

From "Tales of Heresy":

 

Belath’s fleet and Chapter had joined Astelan’s only two weeks earlier in the Calcabrina system. Astelan had been informed by Belath that the Dark Angels’ primarch, the Lion, had sent Belath to add his forces to the expedition.

 

Astelan was well aware of Belath. Again, feel free to cite the portions of "Call of the Lion" that you feel prove that he was there for some secret purpose, but I think the story makes it clear that the antagonism between the well meaning Astelan and Belath, who is eager-to-prove-himself and aggressive to boot, leads the latter to "report" the former to the Lion. That having been said, and meaning no offense to Gav Thorpe, that story is just poorly and confusingly written. Belath reports Astelan for what? "Disobedience", he says, but disobedience of what? When they argue about making peaceful contact with Byzanthis (after their first skirmish) or contacting the Lion for guidance, Belath acknowledges Astelan's seniority! ;)

 

The theme of distrustfulness permiates (sp?) the Unforgiven to the current timeline. It is evident the Lion did not trust several individuals withing his Legion.

Cite, please... your source and the individuals you refer to.

 

The only true instances of distrust within the Lion's Legion that I can recall amount to:

1. Luther; in pg 256, right after the Saroshi attempt at the Lion's life, it's pretty much spelled out that Luther confesses his actions to El'Jonson.

2. Zahariel; in pg 255, the Lion notes Zahariel was with Luther during said event. Luther's confession makes Zahariel complicit (for witnessing the near treason but not confessing) and thus he gets sent off.

 

The theme or reclusiveness and distrust truly begins in the aftermath of the destruction of Caliban--when the Dark Angels discover the extent of Luther's treason and especially when they discover that the Fallen have survived. Yes, the Order had themes of secrecy, but these were more tradition tempered by a sense of humor, even. Remember Lord Cypher reprimanding Luther for not taking the initiation bit seriously, or the laugh-filled celebrations they held after their inductions? :)

 

And they are not all Calibanite - where did you get that?

From "Fallen Angels", pg 11:

 

... and it had escaped no one that virtually all of the Astartes being sent home were from Caliban rather than Terra.

 

Astellan isn't for one. ...

Astelan shows up at a different time. From "Fallen Angels", pg 39:

 

He was one of the few Terrans serving with the Legion on Caliban, having been sent to Aldurukh some fifteen years after Luther and the rest of the training cadre.

 

Either way, though, I was referring to the five hundred line Astartes, as opposed to the "special characters" when I made that statement. :)

 

As he did with the rest of the ostracized group for reasons that are not explained to us. And if you beleive that the Lion wasted 500 perfectly good marines just to save Luther's face, then we do have very different starting points.

He didn't do it to save Luther's face. He did it to preserve morale. Luther had to be punished somehow, but without the entire Legion (a good third of which was probably Calibanite at that point) having to deal with that kind of drama. If Luther had been sent by himself, the exile would have been obvious.

 

I think that irrationality or delusion is NOT the case but the rest describe the Lion perfectly well.

But anxiety, fear, persecutory beliefs, and conspiracies do? ;)

 

By all means, cite your sources for the first three... but where conspiracies go, that's flat out. You can disagree with me if you want, but my whole basis is Luther admitting it to the Lion (see above citation)... not the Lion thinking that this was the case. On the other hand, I'll admit that, while it's heavily implied that Luther admits his complicity to the Lion, it's not stated outright. So I should qualify that I'm dismissing conspiracies on that basis.

 

Regarding me re-reading the Fallen Angels: why? are you gonna pay me? Seriously though why? The original plan was to confiscate the tanks. That's what i said. How does this contradict the book to the point I need to re-read it?

I hope I didn't come across as rude, it's just that it seemed like some of your statements didn't reconcile with the written material.

 

As for why he wouldn't keep the tanks? You already have my words on that. All I can add is that pgs 28-29 and 266-7 pretty much outline exactly what I said: A. Keep the weapons from Horus' hands until the Loyalists are able to converge on him (4-6 months later); B. use the weapons to defeat Horus, who is turning Isstvan V into a fortress world. What part of this doesn't make sense?

 

Sure there is seniority (Horus was the Warmaster after all) but expecting blind obedience? From a Primarch? Really? The whole HH series is about how highly individaulistic the Primarchs are. Can you see Russ being docile? or Fulgrim? or anybody? or the Lion?

I'm not talking about blind obedience, though. I'm talking about (not trying to sound rude here) common sense in terms of military matters. Absent paranoia and a complete disregard for an established chain of command (Rogal Dorn serving as the proper Warmaster after Horus' rebellion), there is no reason to deny Perturabo those weapons. There is no strategic acumen to be found in this, and despite my sincere attempts to see this from a different angle, I really struggle to see how this could be. Going by your proposal, there would have been no way for the Loyalists to coordinate any sort of campaign against Horus. The "anyone of us could be a traitor" would (ironically) kept Isstvan V from happening altogether, since, by that logic, none of them would acquiesce to fight alongside one another. Every Loyalist Legion would have stayed where they were, constantly watching at their flanks and worrying about who (besides Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, and Mortarion) would attack them. Rogal Dorn would have been left alone in Terra. An extreme view, to be sure, but it's an extreme proposal!

 

Finally the "not getting people" is an integral part of the Lion's character AND I happen to dislike it. Just because I dislike it doesn't make it go away. If only...

Again, please cite. Nemiel's perception is the only time you'll find this. But if you like, go through "Descent of Angels", where we see a jovial, conversational, approachable Lion El'Jonson who is shown charming people, is stated as "forging bonds of brotherhood" as part of his role within the Order, etc.

 

Good conversation! :)

 

EDIT:

 

I... just noticed where you're from. And here I am, talking about Demaratos to you, of all people. Σεμπερ, αν ειχα προσεξει το προφιλ σου, θα ειχα σκασει πιο νωρις για να τα πουμε στα Ελληνικα μεσω PM... Μαλλον εχουν βαρεθει να διαβαζουν τα σχολια μου εδω! :D

 

Cheers,

P.

[shabbadoo]

Thanks for the citations, Phoebus. Similar things were discussed in another thread, but I didn't know exactly where it stated that it was mostly Calibanites, not Terrans, that were being sent off.

[Brother Immolator]

I... just noticed where you're from. And here I am, talking about Demaratos to you, of all people. Σεμπερ, αν ειχα προσεξει το προφιλ σου, θα ειχα σκασει πιο νωρις για να τα πουμε στα Ελληνικα μεσω PM... Μαλλον εχουν βαρεθει να διαβαζουν τα σχολια μου εδω! ;)

 

Μπα,και γαμώ τις αναλύσεις έχετε κάνει και οι δύο βασικά

 

I must admit that although i havent read the novels,from what i read on this thread,they seem to fail to do justice to the Lion,or at the very least diminish his awesomeness one way or another.

 

I believe the whole point is not why or how he made the blunder and what were the reasons for it,but that the author should not have it in the first place.The matter why is irrelevant,the action in itself diminishes him in a novel that we were expecting him to shine.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

I must admit that although i havent read the novels,from what i read on this thread,they seem to fail to do justice to the Lion,or at the very least diminish his awesomeness one way or another.

 

Read them and arrive at your own conclusions. Seriously, one would think everyone and their pet Watcher is a Gothic fantasy connoisseur in this forum judging by the criticism.

[Lexael]

Hey guys, a long time ago on some forum post, I remember there was a DA player who was forming the fluff for his (non chaos) fallen and he mentioned a brief couple words about possibly storming the rock...

 

Its stayed with me and I would really like to figure out if a scenario of this magnitude could be possible. Mostly, I'm just looking for suggestions from you guys on what this game of epicness would include. I would want to add in a WHOLE bunch of home made rules like silent weapons/ knifing people, tripping the alarm, possibly rolling to see how many DA are currently stationed at the time of the attack etc etc.

 

The whole point is to capture and rescue Astellan. I dont care too much about Luther cuz hes kinda chaos-y and he didnt kill the Lion.... which bring me to my last random question about the Lion.

 

This sounds like it would play out better as a Fallen Angel & mercenary strike team mission, using the Deathwatch RPG to set it up.

 

It wouldn't necessarily be successful, more like how far could they actually get before being stopped?

 

A large assault of Fallen Angels assaulting the Rock? The Dark Angels would be sharpening their blades of reason and drooling for that to happen.

[Brother Immolator]

I must admit that although i havent read the novels,from what i read on this thread,they seem to fail to do justice to the Lion,or at the very least diminish his awesomeness one way or another.

 

Read them and arrive at your own conclusions. Seriously, one would think everyone and their pet Watcher is a Gothic fantasy connoisseur in this forum judging by the criticism.

 

Thats what the internet is for isnt it?