jhrovii Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Why do Grey Knight initiates have their minds wiped to forget their former lives? Think of what this entails! They forget their memories of the Emperor, the memories of attending church with their families or listening to any stories about him. How can a man who knows nothing of the Emperor, Humanity, or the threats that face them suddenly submit to the trials of Astartes and likely perish? The initiate would know only this: his previous self wanted to become a GK for whatever reason but he does not know that reason; Now that he lacks his life experiences, memory, and sense of community with the Imperium, he has lost his compulsion to serve. Mind wiping of a previous life would completely change the character of a person. No life experiences to draw from. No morality or ethics built on that system. No habits of life. No innate recognition of the Emperor cultivated since birth. No understanding of the Imperium's enemies. No developed spiritual fortitude against chaos. Only suspicion at the nightmare of their new life deep in the bowels of the chapter stronghold, told to die for a man they once cared about. Without their memories, they are now different people and unprepared to be Astartes. I don't like the idea of mind-wiping. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 On one hand, on the other, with a blank canvas they can be moulded into what grey knight's are. driven by faith and purity and all that jazz. Knowing no doubt and no fear and not having urges to protect their family/pets/loved ones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhrovii Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 Faith in what? They have no faith. There are no Space Marine commissars, they cannot be made to have faith. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Its nessecary due to the foe they will be fighting, daemons will constantly tempt you and attempt to turn you, but if you have forgotten what you truly want then you cannot be tempted with it. That and names are powerful, and since they are fogotten they will have no power over them anymore. Since no Grey Knight has ever been turned I say it's working pretty well for them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaponAdept Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Maybe it's specific memories of home that are wiped, not their whole brain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuclearMessiah Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Maybe it's specific memories of home that are wiped, not their whole brain. I concur, we have seval instances of hem mindwiping other space marines they fought alongside. So we can assume they can target a specific timerange to wipe, since wiping out all of a Space Marines memories would be stupid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhrovii Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 Its nessecary due to the foe they will be fighting, daemons will constantly tempt you and attempt to turn you, but if you have forgotten what you truly want then you cannot be tempted with it. That and names are powerful, and since they are fogotten they will have no power over them anymore. But they are also naive, no, having forgotten their life experiences? Since no Grey Knight has ever been turned I say it's working pretty well for them :lol: My point is this is bad fluff. It is not grimdark. It is retarded. Maybe it's specific memories of home that are wiped, not their whole brain. Of course, that's why I did not claim mind wiping makes them forget how to swallow. However if you don't have your memories you lose your identity. You lose everything about you that makes you you. It is that you that brought you to the Astartes and the Emperor's bosom, and it is that you that they euthanize. You wipe your mind of your mother, but flowers remind you of her. So they wipe your mind of flower memories but the Ecclesiarchy reminds you of her too (as you both attended many solemn rituals of the local priest. Truly, it is what made you pious). So they wipe your memories of your piety and the godness of the Emperor... so who is this Emperor guy again? Why should I fight for him, he's nothing to me? I just woke up in this chair with a bunch of wires to my brain. Why should I trust my captives? Maybe it's specific memories of home that are wiped, not their whole brain. I concur, we have seval instances of hem mindwiping other space marines they fought alongside. So we can assume they can target a specific timerange to wipe, since wiping out all of a Space Marines memories would be stupid. They have no memory of their former life. Their mind is wiped of that. You cannot wipe your mind and not wipe your mind at the same time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 how is mindwiping bad? You strip everything from the initiate and have a free reighn to make a true soldier. All the Grey Knight has is duty and faith, he is the perfect soldier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Why do Grey Knight initiates have their minds wiped to forget their former lives? Think of what this entails! They forget their memories of the Emperor, the memories of attending church with their families or listening to any stories about him. If that's what they had memories of, they probably wouldn't be recruited in the first place. Ten year old feral children who've excelled at not getting eaten by the terrifying monsters their planet is crawling with are more the sort of material they're looking for. How can a man who knows nothing of the Emperor, Humanity, or the threats that face them suddenly submit to the trials of Astartes and likely perish? The initiate would know only this: his previous self wanted to become a GK for whatever reason but he does not know that reason; Now that he lacks his life experiences, memory, and sense of community with the Imperium, he has lost his compulsion to serve. That, plus decades of hypno-indoctrination with everything they need to know and believe, and constant training. Mind wiping of a previous life would completely change the character of a person. No life experiences to draw from. No morality or ethics built on that system. No habits of life. No innate recognition of the Emperor cultivated since birth. No understanding of the Imperium's enemies. No developed spiritual fortitude against chaos. Only suspicion at the nightmare of their new life deep in the bowels of the chapter stronghold, told to die for a man they once cared about. Without their memories, they are now different people and unprepared to be Astartes. They're looking for genetic predisposition, not a skill-set. That's what all the training and study is for. We can rebuild you. I don't like the idea of mind-wiping. Sounds like someone needs mind-wiping. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Why do Grey Knight initiates have their minds wiped to forget their former lives? Think of what this entails! They forget their memories of the Emperor, the memories of attending church with their families or listening to any stories about him. If that's what they had memories of, they probably wouldn't be recruited in the first place. Ten year old feral children who've excelled at not getting eaten by the terrifying monsters their planet is crawling with are more the sort of material they're looking for. How can a man who knows nothing of the Emperor, Humanity, or the threats that face them suddenly submit to the trials of Astartes and likely perish? The initiate would know only this: his previous self wanted to become a GK for whatever reason but he does not know that reason; Now that he lacks his life experiences, memory, and sense of community with the Imperium, he has lost his compulsion to serve. That, plus decades of hypno-indoctrination with everything they need to know and believe, and constant training. Mind wiping of a previous life would completely change the character of a person. No life experiences to draw from. No morality or ethics built on that system. No habits of life. No innate recognition of the Emperor cultivated since birth. No understanding of the Imperium's enemies. No developed spiritual fortitude against chaos. Only suspicion at the nightmare of their new life deep in the bowels of the chapter stronghold, told to die for a man they once cared about. Without their memories, they are now different people and unprepared to be Astartes. They're looking for genetic predisposition, not a skill-set. That's what all the training and study is for. We can rebuild you. I don't like the idea of mind-wiping. Sounds like someone needs mind-wiping. I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhrovii Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 If that's what they had memories of, they probably wouldn't be recruited in the first place. Ten year old feral children who've excelled at not getting eaten by the terrifying monsters their planet is crawling with are more the sort of material they're looking for. So what do they mind-wipe of the children? No memories of their former life... so no memory of how to escape the pursuit of a 20-ft Tiger-Lizard that breathes fire. They forget those survival skills as they are borne from memories of the former life. That, plus decades of hypno-indoctrination with everything they need to know and believe, and constant training. So why does it even matter who they take? Just grab some kids, pump 'em with steroids and you can program (I mean teach) them all they need to know. Right? They're looking for genetic predisposition, not a skill-set. That's what all the training and study is for. We can rebuild you. So it really doesn't matter the type of recruit, whether they're loyal or not, skilled at combat or not, as long as you have a chance of developing broad shoulders you've got an IN in the Grey Knights. Sounds like someone needs mind-wiping. Watch your words, Brother... I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets it. how is mindwiping bad? You strip everything from the initiate and have a free reighn to make a true soldier. All the Grey Knight has is duty and faith, he is the perfect soldier. Gets it? You didn't even read the thread... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Heretic Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 :cuss My point is this is bad fluff. It is not grimdark. It is retarded. Congrats. You've gone up a level, and gained the USR "Clearsight", and will now be able to recognize poor fiction, when you read. Next level, you will gain the understanding that 40K isn't hardcore science fiction, but instead more akin to fantasy. Its technological basis reminiscent of Star Trekian technobabble. The whole stuff was invented by a bunch of hippies, spending their days breathing heavy fumes from miniature castings. Even sadder is that although the original creators had some sort of unique vision and some outside influences, their successors have been brought up on a diet of cheap pulp fiction and nothing else, courtesy of the originals success. Don't expect too much, and if you're disappointed in the fluff, go back and collect the original RT stuff and just ignore anything but the rules in the new stuff - it works for me :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Mind-wiping an Initiate leads to them being shapeable. The Science isn't actually as bad as the previous posters implied. Initiate E will still have muscle-memory and ingrained instinct (such as the aforementioned "how to run from a Raptosaur"), and basic personality traits like ruthless savagery or a predisposition towards honour. All that's lacking is specific details and the origins of how those skills were acquired. Mind-wiping is Laser-Guided Amnesia; 1. With surgical precision, amnesia strips you of all information pertaining to personal identity, leaving just about everything else intact. TV Amnesia is a disorder where you forget where you put your keys, but you do not forget what a key is or what it's for. You will forget where you went to school, but not any of the things you learned in school. As a result, the character will retain all of their skills — though they may not know they have them at first. Interestingly, while this would seem to be Hollywood Science at first glance, this really is how retrograde amnesia works, some of the time. "Procedural memory," which governs skills that the brain has automated, appears to be separate from "declarative memory", where you store previous facts and events, and in many cases only one of the two is damaged. And then there's muscle memory, which may or may not be affected by amnesia. So the mind-wipe doesn't get rid of the Good Stuff, it just gets rid of the Me Stuff. Now, if you want to really talk about stupid mindwipes, look at Starcraft. They wait until their super-elites have finished their training before mind-wiping them, rather than doing it at the beginning. This method risks striking upon losing the skills they just spent thousands of credits teaching them! At least if a newbie recruit does lose their skills it's not a complete tragedy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 So. A mind wipe. You seem to be saying that once they're mind-wiped they will have no motivation to defend an Emperor that they do not know. This makes the silent assumption that they know anything after a mind wipe. It's not clear what a mind wipe entails, really...if it's selective, complete, or - like a hard drive format - if it wipes everything and then sets down a new foundation to build upon (e.g. the file allocation tables for very old Windows versions and very new Mac OS versions). Maybe a mind wipe isn't just a "degaussing" as it were; maybe a mind wipe involves some low level of re-programming. It must leave something there (I bet they don't want to take time to re-teach a full grown man how to walk) but it's not clear what or how much. Heap on top of this one of the things the Imperium is remarkably good at: hypnotic indoctrination. This guy is nearly a blank slate with no memories of his past? Give us three years and he'll worship everything and anything Emperor. It's what they do. I don't find this any more or less hard to swallow than anything else in the fluff. Mind wiping is a black box: it's a plot device and nothing more. Plot devices do what they must. It's easy to imagine it not working...but also easy to imagine that it does work. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Faith in what? They have no faith. There are no Space Marine commissars, they cannot be made to have faith. Why not? :) "Mind wiping" is not actually described in any detail. It can mean just about anything. Beyond that, 40,000 years into an imagined future where alternate universes bleed into each other ... it's pretty hard to insist upon a certain "reality" to anything. Insisting that mind-wiping works exactly in this way is silly. There's nothing "factual" available to back up any such claim; the written fluff just isn't specific enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 There's nothing "factual" available to back up any such claim; the written fluff just isn't specific enough. This is not an accident. :) They call this "black boxing" in the biz. <3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eremiel Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 If that's what they had memories of, they probably wouldn't be recruited in the first place. Ten year old feral children who've excelled at not getting eaten by the terrifying monsters their planet is crawling with are more the sort of material they're looking for. So what do they mind-wipe of the children? No memories of their former life... so no memory of how to escape the pursuit of a 20-ft Tiger-Lizard that breathes fire. They forget those survival skills as they are borne from memories of the former life. That, plus decades of hypno-indoctrination with everything they need to know and believe, and constant training. So why does it even matter who they take? Just grab some kids, pump 'em with steroids and you can program (I mean teach) them all they need to know. Right? They're looking for genetic predisposition, not a skill-set. That's what all the training and study is for. We can rebuild you. So it really doesn't matter the type of recruit, whether they're loyal or not, skilled at combat or not, as long as you have a chance of developing broad shoulders you've got an IN in the Grey Knights. Sounds like someone needs mind-wiping. Watch your words, Brother... I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets it. how is mindwiping bad? You strip everything from the initiate and have a free reighn to make a true soldier. All the Grey Knight has is duty and faith, he is the perfect soldier. Gets it? You didn't even read the thread... The part you're missing the the hypno-indoctrination that comes *after* the mind wipe. Where they are "taught" everything they need to know. Including how to escape from 20-foot lizards and such... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Maybe it's specific memories of home that are wiped, not their whole brain. I concur, we have seval instances of hem mindwiping other space marines they fought alongside. So we can assume they can target a specific timerange to wipe, since wiping out all of a Space Marines memories would be stupid. I've got the fluff source around here somewhere, but it very clearly states that when a Marine in mind-wiped, he loses everything. He can't even feed himself. It's probably in the Slaves to Darkness section on the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I've got the fluff source around here somewhere, but it very clearly states that when a Marine in mind-wiped, he loses everything. He can't even feed himself. Haha, in which case, they do need to reteach them how to walk, eat, etc....which means it's easy enough to tell them, every day, that there is only the Emperor and they live to serve and fight for him. They'll get it. Or they'll die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I've got the fluff source around here somewhere, but it very clearly states that when a Marine in mind-wiped, he loses everything. He can't even feed himself. It's probably in the Slaves to Darkness section on the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights. That's well before my time! ;) I know I've never seen anything specific about it since I climbed aboard around 3rd edition. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Haha, in which case, they do need to reteach them how to walk, eat, etc....which means it's easy enough to tell them, every day, that there is only the Emperor and they live to serve and fight for him. They'll get it. Or they'll die. But, but.....that means the imperium would have to be really good at hypnotic learning and indoctrination techniques etc.! You know just like has been established in fluff for years! Not to mention the hyper inteligence/ability to learn/innate perceptions an astartes gene seed embues, a gene seed derived from teh emprah himself no less! Or.....god forbid... the reader has to use their brain to fill in the inevitable gaps/assumptions that writing a story involves.... (Even books like LOTR and Dune expect the reader to extrapolate and read between the lines because you cannot even begin to hope to delve into exhaustive detail about everything) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 We are in agreement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239339-initiate-mindwiping/#findComment-2887761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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