Dakka Pred

[diabloelmo]

I'm currently in the process of building a Tzeentch warband, and one of the many things I got my hands on for cheap was a chaos predator kit. I know there is a lot of hate for preds in this codex for being over-priced and under-powered, but how bad ARE they?

 

For a little over 100 points, I get an autocannon, two heavy bolters and a havoc launcher that can easily hide away in a corner somewhere to take full advantage of AV 13 frontal armour and likely a 4+ cover save. That's cheaper than a similarly-armed havoc squad (autocannon, three heavy bolters), and it's not a goddamn Obliterator. I know the things are the best thing in our codex at the moment, but everyone uses them to the exclusion of all else.

 

For the sake of something a little different, and a really nice model to boot, how badly would this actually go? I fully expect it to easily be able to pay for itself within a turn or two at most, and at worst it will just act as a fire magnet away from transports, Obliterators (yeah, I took 2x2 of them for heavy support, the bandwagon is there for a REASON) and the Daemon Prince.

[Excessus]

I run with a dakka pred usually. It's on MC/transport/light and medium infantry duty and does that very well. I have a few oblits and a defiler, as well as two DPs and a bunch of meltas to take care of the heavier stuff, but transports are the most numerous vehicles anyway...

[Brother Nihm]

Apart from the issue of cost, it is a vehicle, more importantly it is often the only battletank and therefore will draw all the heavy AT fire early on.

Oblits aren't as specialised and do not suffer from reduced firepower when moving and stun/shaken results which is why many people don't field single or multiple Preds.

Raiders are way too expensive so they're not fielded (usually that is), otherwise one or two Raiders might help to draw fire away from the Predator so that it can keep firing.

The same goes for Defilers which are just too huge to hide and protect.

 

The Chaos Predator is not a downright horrible unit and it is not really hated, it is however a specialised unit with limited application which is why many simply don't take it.

 

Depending on the rest of your list I think you should build one, magnetize it, and have fun.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It's not so much that the predator is bad, but that you need other heavy choices more to make a competitive chaos list. Vindicators, oblits, and defilers are needed more, because they provide things that other unit choices cannot. The dakka pred is a great anti infantry option, but chaos isn't hurting for volume of small arms fire. They need the anti tank and high str/low ap that the other options bring far more than more small arms.

[the jeske]

if it was good in our dex it would have been made cheaper in later meq dex [and still offten not used ].

[KingDeath]

Unlike Defilers and Vindicators, which are utterly useless, a Predator can add some much needed long range firepower to your army.

Still, why take a Predator when you can take Olbiterators instead? ( or perhaps even meltahavocs if you realy want to fight at close range...).

[Excessus]

a dakka pred is only 100 points, whereas if you choose something else in the heavy section it's gonna cost more than that... (I usually never take single oblits...)

[diabloelmo]

TBH, I took the thing for my list because I didn't want to be one of those cookie-cutter-list guys and put 9 oblits down on the table. It's the same reason I'll be dropping the 2 units of two down to one unit of 3, and bringing a unit of autocannon havocs to the party. I like a bit of variety. Having everything the same doesn't really seem very.... chaotic

[Brother Nihm]

I understand the need to be non-cookie cutter, I hate "net lists" myself, but we've been dealt a bad hand with this book. In terms of efficiency, point constraints and synergy we are severely limited.

 

a dakka pred is only 100 points,

100 points for an autocannon (unless you choose to move closer and waste turns that could be spent firing all weapons) is not the best of deals imho.

 

Having everything the same doesn't really seem very.... chaotic

Neither does randomness.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Unlike Defilers and Vindicators, which are utterly useless

 

That is an odd thing to say. Outclassed by obliterators, sure. But far from useless.

[minigun762]

You can make an argument for taking autocannon/lascannon predators instead as you're still supplying chaos with their basic need for long range anti-tank firepower. Whether or not its a superior choice to oblits is debatable. Dakka predators really work best for our loyalist brothers who get them cheaper and can rely on fast attack/elite slots for tank busting.

[Brother Ambroz]

Unlike Defilers and Vindicators, which are utterly useless

 

Utterly useless? I don't think so. Vindis aren't amazing but far from useless. Defilers? Many people field 3 in competitive lists.

[Panda_]

You can make an argument for taking autocannon/lascannon predators instead as you're still supplying chaos with their basic need for long range anti-tank firepower. Whether or not its a superior choice to oblits is debatable. Dakka predators really work best for our loyalist brothers who get them cheaper and can rely on fast attack/elite slots for tank busting.

That's going to be my favorite quote from this board. You deserve a cookie.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Unlike Defilers and Vindicators, which are utterly useless, a Predator can add some much needed long range firepower to your army.

 

The Defiler is a 72" range cannon that can shoot while moving across the board and then assault whatever it didn't blow up with multiple DCCW attacks. What's useless about that?

 

But on-topic, I concur with magnetizing the Predator and trying the different combinations yourself. That way the question answers itself according to your local game and personal play style.

[KingDeath]

Unlike Defilers and Vindicators, which are utterly useless, a Predator can add some much needed long range firepower to your army.

 

The Defiler is a 72" range cannon that can shoot while moving across the board and then assault whatever it didn't blow up with multiple DCCW attacks. What's useless about that?

 

But on-topic, I concur with magnetizing the Predator and trying the different combinations yourself. That way the question answers itself according to your local game and personal play style.

 

BS3, AV12 and it's huge size make it, together with the inability of the battlecannon to act as effective anti tank weapon ( with only a limited use as anti infantry weapon thanks to coversaves ) ,as well as the low WS and Initiative, simply bad.

 

No matter how you plan to use it, your Defiler will be ( thanks to the low AV and the inability to get coversaves )scrapmetal as soon as your oponent actually bothers to target it. To make matters worse every Defiler you take uses up one of your important heavy slots, which you generaly need to fill with as much longrange AT fire as humanly possible or your first meched up oponent will make you a very sad panda indeed.

 

If the Defiler would be cheaper and a fast attack attack choice then it's overal mediocre performance and thin armour could be excused ( because the other FA choices are equaly bad ) but as a Heavy Support choice, where it has to compete with Oblits ( and to a lesser degree the Predator ), it simply fails to impress.

[Brother Ambroz]

I had an entire tournament game where my defiler sat there and soaked up fire. Even took 3 meltas to the rear without losing much other than a weapon. This happens almost every game I use a defiler as well.

 

Some crap unit huh?

[KingDeath]

I had an entire tournament game where my defiler sat there and soaked up fire. Even took 3 meltas to the rear without losing much other than a weapon. This happens almost every game I use a defiler as well.

 

Some crap unit huh?

 

Yes, and other people had terminators dying to a bunch of grots. Anecdotes are fine and dandy but they prove very little.

[Brother Ambroz]

It's not exactly an anectdote when most of the people here have similiar stories. I do agree they'd be better off as a FA choice though.

[KingDeath]

It's not exactly an anectdote when most of the people here have similiar stories. I do agree they'd be better off as a FA choice though.

 

With a 17% chance to die to a lascanon shot i have grave doubts that "most" people here have similar stories.

It is rather simple, Defilers don't offer much anti tank firepower, are just as vulnerable as dreads and are pretty bad in close combat ( low WS, low I ) but cost more and cannot claim any coversaves thanks to their huge sizes ( which also means that pretty much everyone has a clear line of sight to shoot them ).

Their sole saving grace is the daemonic posession rule which grants them a small but hardly sufficient measure of protection.

Adding a Defiler instead of something actually useful ( meaning equiped with some reliable long range AT firepower ) is a waste of points.

You can do it if you wish ( after all not every army needs to be competative ) but it will make your army worse than it could be with one of the more useful HS choices.

[Brother Ambroz]

I guarantee you they do. Sure their WS is lower but they have more attacks. Not enough AT with defilers? Take meltas on your CSM, termies or chosen. You can't compare them really to oblits but they're still better than vindicators. Dakka preds perform different roles for the most part so they can't really be compared to them either. You make them seem extremely easy to kill. I was playing against a CSM player one time with a khornate daemon army and one survived a whole turn against a thirster in CC.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yes, defilers are fire magnets that probably won't live past a couple of turns. And that has immense strategic value. Oblits and autocannon havocs are technically better, but the pressure a defiler can put on opponents is very useful.

 

Where they excel is in lists that need armor saturation, and so don't want to be using havocs or oblits. The second most competitive chaos list after DPs/Termidice/PMs/Zerks/Oblits is Chaos MC and walker spam lists. When you put down 2 DPS, 3 close combat dreads, and 3 defilers, things get interesting very fast.

[red_starrise]

I really don't see how a defiler can be called useless, or a vindicator for that matter. Yes, the defiler is a huge target but isn't half of it's job psychological warfare? I mean, seriously, if you base your strategy on the defiler winning the game, then yes, it's probably useless, but if it draws fire away from more critical units & happens to do some damage in the process where has it gone wrong? And the BS3 isn't really worth griping about honestly, IG have BS3 & before their current codex gave them 3 russes in a single HS slot the leman russ was still nasty w/ it's battlecannon & hardly useless.

 

Besides, just because you may have had poor experiences w/ a unit does not make it useless for everyone, you, perhaps, but not everyone. Not to mention, how can you argue that they're soooo bad when someone is offering up their personal experiences that theirs was successful & useful for them? That's like people who still argue there was no holocaust despite being presented w/ evidence to the contrary.

 

Also, what makes a vindicator so utterly useless for chaos? I don't understand this. They're great tanks in SM armies, I always run them & use them quite well, yes they do cost more than a loyalist vindi but it's a mere 10 pts. Yes, daemonic possession does increase their cost to just under 150, the cost of a basic defiler, but again, w/ what my vindis have done for my Imperial Fists it's hard to call them useless in any army. And, yes, I do agree that Oblits are a great HS choice, but even playing Iron Warriors I will never field 3 squads of them unless it's in Apocalypse as I like my armour & what a tank column can do to an opponent's target priority.

 

On topic: I look at a dakka pred for chaos the way I do for space wolves: it does the same job as the bulk of the army. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all for redundancy, but a dakka pred is the wrong kind of redundancy. Now, an AC, Sponson LC pred fills a different role & is worth considering.

[KingDeath]

I really don't see how a defiler can be called useless, or a vindicator for that matter. Yes, the defiler is a huge target but isn't half of it's job psychological warfare? I mean, seriously, if you base your strategy on the defiler winning the game, then yes, it's probably useless, but if it draws fire away from more critical units & happens to do some damage in the process where has it gone wrong? And the BS3 isn't really worth griping about honestly, IG have BS3 & before their current codex gave them 3 russes in a single HS slot the leman russ was still nasty w/ it's battlecannon & hardly useless.

 

Besides, just because you may have had poor experiences w/ a unit does not make it useless for everyone, you, perhaps, but not everyone. Not to mention, how can you argue that they're soooo bad when someone is offering up their personal experiences that theirs was successful & useful for them? That's like people who still argue there was no holocaust despite being presented w/ evidence to the contrary.

 

Also, what makes a vindicator so utterly useless for chaos? I don't understand this. They're great tanks in SM armies, I always run them & use them quite well, yes they do cost more than a loyalist vindi but it's a mere 10 pts. Yes, daemonic possession does increase their cost to just under 150, the cost of a basic defiler, but again, w/ what my vindis have done for my Imperial Fists it's hard to call them useless in any army. And, yes, I do agree that Oblits are a great HS choice, but even playing Iron Warriors I will never field 3 squads of them unless it's in Apocalypse as I like my armour & what a tank column can do to an opponent's target priority.

 

On topic: I look at a dakka pred for chaos the way I do for space wolves: it does the same job as the bulk of the army. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all for redundancy, but a dakka pred is the wrong kind of redundancy. Now, an AC, Sponson LC pred fills a different role & is worth considering.

 

PThe damn thing uses up one third of your heavy support choices which are one of the book's very few chances to actually get longrange firepower. Unless you wish to sacrifice a squad of chaosmarines for every transport you destroy you will need those heavy support choices.

In adition the Defiler's thin armour means that it even sucks when it comes to drawing fire. If you wish to have a firemagnet then use a landraider ( which also offers some good, solid longrange firepower although at a very high cost).

 

The Vindicator suffers from only having a singly, shortranged weapon and thin side armour. Half of the damageroles mean that it won't do a thing in that round, which is horribly bad way to waste points. Daemonic posession helps somewhat but makes it even more expensive ( the decreased BS is another downside even for an ordnance weapon ).

 

My point is, with the current situation of the chaosdex and the game itself you need reliable longrange firepower to deal with lots of transports and you generaly won't have the luxury to take too many weak choices, at least if you wish to compete with the more modern armies around. Obliterators ( and to a lesser degree even the mediocre autolaspreds/ chaos landraiders ) provide you with that firepower while Defilers and Vindicators ( disregarding all their other faults ) don't.

To make matters worse if you wish to field a Defiler/ Vindicator with any kind of efficiency you need to take at least two, which leaves you with a single heavy support slot reserved for an actually "good" ( none of them is truly good so perhaps i should write bearable ) longrange at unit.

 

*edit* Your holocaust comparision is rather stupid. Ignoring the rather unfitting comparision ( wargame-warcrime ) the holocaust does not solely rely on anectodical evidence but actual, hard proof. In fact relying on anectodical evidence would give the sadly all too common revisionist scumbags even more amunition for their bs.

[red_starrise]

*edit* Your holocaust comparision is rather stupid. Ignoring the rather unfitting comparision ( wargame-warcrime ) the holocaust does not solely rely on anectodical evidence but actual, hard proof. In fact relying on anectodical evidence would give the sadly all too common revisionist scumbags even more amunition for their bs.

 

First of all, the comparison was meant to prove the point of ignorance is 100% situational & selective because believe me, in college I've had to debate both sides of the arguement of the holocaust (THAT was stupid). The point there is that people who claim it never happened flat out ignore whatever they're presented w/ proving otherwise, same as saying "Your defiler does well for you? That means nothing, it still sucks." So please don't try & turn this into any sort of flame war by taking my context wrong (BTW, I am Jewish).

 

Second of all, I'm genuinely curious: what would you consider hard evidence in a game like this? Only if you yourself witness it? But then it's only hard evidence to you, it's anecdotal to everyone else. It's not like on video games where you can track kills & stats for a certain character/weapon across the world, all we have to rely on is the other players who game using certain units for their performance, we sure can't rely on GW & their battle reports to prove anything cause everytime a new unit/model comes out they publish a battle report showing how uber that item is, even if it's not for the sole purpose of selling kits.

 

I agree that the vindicators being more expensive than a loyalist version sucks but that does not mean the tank sucks if used well. I refuse to believe that there's only x amount of list combinations that can be competitive when played by different people. Seriously, it's a commonly held belief that SM scouts & assault squads suck where I game, but I've seen both unit types used quite well competitively. BTW, a vindicator has an effective 30" range on the demolisher cannon, since we typically play short-edge to short-edge I've never had a problem w/ my loyalist vindicators doing massive amounts of damage & being well worth more than their points including in my SW army which can play similar to Chaos armies.

 

As for the predator variants, I've always liked the AC/Las variant but I still see nothing that should make chaos vehicles of any stripe more expensive than SM vehicles unless they came w/ possession like the defiler only w/ the BS of 4 still. I will agree 100% w/ you that by DIRECT apples to apples comparison, the CSM tanks pale compared to the SM tanks due to the costs & limitations, however, I do think that w/ the options available from a combined arms aspect, they can be useful & serve a purpose & even be competitive. So unless you go to every tournament around the world both big & small & know what every chaos list is that is being run, I fail to see how you could give me hard evidence otherwise since anecdotal proves nothing.

 

However, I apologize for inadvertently hijacking this thread, that was never my attempt. I'd be happy to continue this friendly debate elsewhere w/ you but I don't feel right doing so here.

[Brother Nihm]

It is time to steer the conversation back to the realm of 40K gentlemen