Venerable vs. ordinairy dread

[The Holy Heretic]

So I'm sitting here working out a list for a tournament. Got some autocannons in the mail, and eagerly await the chance to build myself a couple of psyflemen dreads.

 

Now, I just wonder whether paying the extra 60 pts for being venerable is worth it? What do you say?

[Chengar Qordath]

For a psyfleman, I would generally say no. The boosted BS is not that big on a twin-linked weapon, and the Venerable durability boost isn't quite as helpful on a dread that's mostly sitting back and shooting. It's nice, but I'm not sure if it's nice enough to be worth the markup to Venerable. Plus, while this obviously depends on the army, I would say that Elite slots have a lot more competition for good options than Heavy Support slots.

[The Holy Heretic]

Okay, then how would you configure and use the venerable? :)

[BrotherWasted]

I wouldn't. Personally.

 

But, given the option, that thing would be packing the DCCW and Assault Cannon + Psybolts. Now it has a Psycannon and S5 Storm Bolter and still can kill a Daemon Prince by itself.

[NuclearMessiah]

I wouldn't. Personally.

 

But, given the option, that thing would be packing the DCCW and Assault Cannon + Psybolts. Now it has a Psycannon and S5 Storm Bolter and still can kill a Daemon Prince by itself.

 

 

Seconded, that's exactly how I equip my Ven Dread as well (I even pretend my AC is a Psycannon)

[chaplainmeliadus]

I wouldn't. Personally.

 

But, given the option, that thing would be packing the DCCW and Assault Cannon + Psybolts. Now it has a Psycannon and S5 Storm Bolter and still can kill a Daemon Prince by itself.

 

 

Seconded, that's exactly how I equip my Ven Dread as well (I even pretend my AC is a Psycannon)

 

Thirded. I got one of the GK MkIV dreads from Forge World at Games Day with this set up. It looks cool, and, as noted above, can smack a lot of stuff silly.

[number6]

I'm gonna buck the trend and respectfully disagree with the current popular opinion. :D

 

It is always worth the venerable upgrade ... provided your list can actually afford the points. 60 pts x <however many dreads you want to "upgrade"> adds up mighty quick! :) There's nothing at all wrong with keeping them basic.

 

But there are two real-good reasons to upgrade.

 

1. The dread really is significantly more survivable. It is much harder to stop the dread from shooting each and every turn. You will already ignore 1/3 of the damage results (thanks to psychic pilot), you can probably afford to let the 1st weapon destroyed result pass through unmolested. Depending on the game action, you might even be able to allow an immobilized result to pass through. Which means that only 1/3 or 1/2 of the time will you care about the damage result, at which point you can constest it! Meaning the odds of rolling up a damage result that you actually worry about is very, very low, on the order of 1/4 to 1/9.

 

2. Most GK lists have a surplus of Elite slots but find only 3 Heavy Support slots to be quite limiting. When you opt for a vendread, you open up a Heavy slot. Hey! That's another dreadnought! Or a dreadnight! Or some purgators! Or.... :P

 

And then a "good" reason that comes under the category of "added bonus": BS 5. Even twin-linked, you'll miss a few shots with the autocannons. But that will be pretty much NEVER at BS 5. Now that's dependability!

 

And on that subject, my actual favorite loadout for a vendread is stock, no major weapons upgrades (though I am a personal fan of the psyflamed heavy flamer). A BS 5 multi-melta is sweeeet. I've seen superb vanilla Marines list run multiple stock dreads at BS 4. Hey! We can do that, too (though the psyfleman loadout is usually too appealing to go this route), only at BS 5 with our underutilized Elites! Not too shabby!

[NuclearMessiah]

I'm gonna buck the trend and respectfully disagree with the current popular opinion. :)

 

 

I am not surprised :P

 

In all honesty, I will equip my dreads in all sorts of weird fashions on my whims for the day.

[breng77]

Venerable is worth it if you can afford the points. With Fortitude to negate 1/3 of all damage results the re-roll becomes quite good. The issue of course being points (2 Venerables are nearly the same cost a 3 Regular dreads). Most lists that I see using Venerables are Henchman lists as they generally have the spare points.

[thade]

As is his custom, number6 took us all to school. Here.

 

Personally, I see there being little desire to make a Psy-riflemen a Venerable...his 4 shots are TL'd, they're gonna hit. Any other kind of Dread is a different story...they'll have shorter ranger (take more heat) and less shots that are likely not TL'd: the higher BS and durability will be a very welcome thing. Pile atop that the fact that you're limited on heavy slots, and Venerable Dreads look all the more appealing in more than a few situations.

[BrotherWasted]

He tried taking us to school, but I didn't learn anything.

 

It's not usually worth it outside of a Henchmen list where you have the points available. Psyflemen are one of the last things I want to protect; they're at the back of the board and already shrugging of shaken and stunned results, those 60pts on each Dread are much better spent towards other squad upgrades or a Vindicare or something. Once they pop the transports, their job is done and they're just fire support.

[Crynn]

I'm gonna buck the trend and respectfully disagree with the current popular opinion. ;)

 

It is always worth the venerable upgrade ... provided your list can actually afford the points. 60 pts x <however many dreads you want to "upgrade"> adds up mighty quick! :P There's nothing at all wrong with keeping them basic.

 

But there are two real-good reasons to upgrade.

 

1. The dread really is significantly more survivable. It is much harder to stop the dread from shooting each and every turn. You will already ignore 1/3 of the damage results (thanks to psychic pilot), you can probably afford to let the 1st weapon destroyed result pass through unmolested. Depending on the game action, you might even be able to allow an immobilized result to pass through. Which means that only 1/3 or 1/2 of the time will you care about the damage result, at which point you can constest it! Meaning the odds of rolling up a damage result that you actually worry about is very, very low, on the order of 1/4 to 1/9.

 

2. Most GK lists have a surplus of Elite slots but find only 3 Heavy Support slots to be quite limiting. When you opt for a vendread, you open up a Heavy slot. Hey! That's another dreadnought! Or a dreadnight! Or some purgators! Or.... :(

 

And then a "good" reason that comes under the category of "added bonus": BS 5. Even twin-linked, you'll miss a few shots with the autocannons. But that will be pretty much NEVER at BS 5. Now that's dependability!

 

And on that subject, my actual favorite loadout for a vendread is stock, no major weapons upgrades (though I am a personal fan of the psyflamed heavy flamer). A BS 5 multi-melta is sweeeet. I've seen superb vanilla Marines list run multiple stock dreads at BS 4. Hey! We can do that, too (though the psyfleman loadout is usually too appealing to go this route), only at BS 5 with our underutilized Elites! Not too shabby!

 

 

In all honesty, sometimes I wonder if you just put forward an opinion which is the exact opposite of the masses in some kind of attempt to seem insightful. I don't mean that with disrespect I just find a statement like ' it is 'always' worth the venerable upgrade' just a little hard to stomach. I am one of the few people who likes ven dreads and has had much success using one but even I won't suggest them as a standard issue upgrade for general lists.

 

I think the Ven dread is a good upgrade when your long range anti tank is limited and thus you need to keep it alive. It is also great when you have a GM to make it scoring, I find this reason the main one when justifying the 60 point upgrade cost.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Drachnon]

I personally find 60 points to much for venerable rule, +1 WS and +1BS. 60 points is a lot of upgrades in our codex (and we can upgrade a lot).

Things you could do with 60 points:

3x psybolt ammo upgrades on squads

6x hammers on strikes/interceptors

12x hammers on purgation squad

6x psycannons

2x heavy incinerators on dreadknights

12x warrior acolytes with boltgun

inquisitor with equipment

Psyker mastery level 3 + 2 powers on librarian

etc etc

 

If I had 60 points I would probably look into a combination of those things before taking venerable over normal dread

[number6]

In all honesty, sometimes I wonder if you just put forward an opinion which is the exact opposite of the masses in some kind of attempt to seem insightful.

B)

 

No, I just don't see the point of opining merely to parrot what's being said. If you don't see me posting, it's probably because I agree with what's being posted. :huh: Just trying to expand the discussion while being efficient with my limited amount of time.... B)

 

I don't mean that with disrespect

No harm, no foul. :)

 

I am one of the few people who likes ven dreads and has had much success using one but even I won't suggest them as a standard issue upgrade for general lists.

Please note that I did say there's nothing at all wrong with leaving them un-venerabled. But I do honestly believe that the 60 pts is always worth spending for the reasons I listed.

[Red Lost Soldier]

I struggle to find 60pt for the upgrade in my list, usually only happens when I need a 3rd heavy support slot for a LR (usually a Redeemer - flame on!) as I run 2 standard dakka dreads. When I do my favourite upgrade is a plasma cannon. Aside from a ridiculously awesome looking gun, tactically I find I sometimes just need that guaranteed death against enemy terminators or MEq. You know those games where the rends just don't come and those plague marines need to be shifted. If I'm running a SR, the MM becomes my choice, as GK lists find melta hard to come by and the SR gives you a means of getting them where they need to be.

[Crynn]

Venerable is also about the only way to make a dread have a chance of making combat without taking the woeful storm raven. Give a ven psybolt ammo and for 180 pts he's actually pretty good, will beat the crap out of most MCs in combat, remember it's fist is a force weapon.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[the jeske]

If your runing 1-2 rifle man . venerable . if your runing 3 not venerable . If your runing a draigo wing and you decied to take dreads , go venerable unless your playing less then 1750pts then go normal .

if you play crow build never venerable unless you run out of slots [which shouldnt realy happen , but then again I seen stranger things in lists] . If you want to play a cortez build dont use venerables ever , other choices better.

[thade]

Jeske...no elucidation?

 

A Dread with TL-Autocannons at BS4 is going to hit 3-4 times when it shoots. (It's very, very annoying being on the receiving end of these Psy-riflemen, I tell you.) It gains very little going to BS5, but it does gain some significant survivability with Venerable re-roll forcing...esp. when you factor in Fortitude, that Dread will shrug off quite a bit more than your average Dread. So, perhaps Jeske is saying that if you don't have enough Riflemen, make the ones you have Venerable so they don't die.

 

I am 100% on the "if it's not a riflemen, make it Venerable" band wagon. If it's within 24" it's within marine engagement range and will take more than just stray missile shots; eventually it'll get a face-full of melta. That Venerable roll could just be the thing that saves it. Not to mention that the multi-melta and assault cannon both gain quite a bit from BS5. So does the lascannon...but honestly with S8 autocannon spam, I don't see much reason to take those, personally. The AP2 is nice, but you have enough Rending psycannons on the table that it's just gravy.

 

ADDENDUM: I'm not saying that I don't like gravy.

[Fume]

I run 2x Ven Dreads as riflemans. Only becuase i have 3x Dreadknights occupying my heavy support spots. In a low model count army, spending 195pts on a vendread is worth it simply because it fulfils a role i have not or cannot otherwise fill.

 

What im trying to get at is that you should look past such things as:

• 135pts vs 195pts.
  BS4 WS4 vs BS5. WS5
  Venerable and Not
  Etc...
  

And consider the role in your army you need to fill, which version of dread will suit the role best, which weapon load out provides better synergy for your list (aggressive close fire and combat support or Long ranged AT) Is there another completely different unit alternative to fill this role?

 

Try avoid picking units based on how good they are by them selves, instead, pick them based on how good they work with everything else in your list.

[the jeske]

Jeske...no elucidation?

if he plays 1-2 dreads then he is either playing 3 NDK and can only run venerables or he is playing draigo which at less then 2500 offten runs only one dread[and its better to run a venerable then].

for crow builds it is all about rate of fire. when you have 6 slots full of puris all in razors 3 normal rifle man and an assasin , you can start thinking about venerables thing is by that point your no longer playing normal point games .

 

Death star build like ones using double SR dont need dreads or rather they work better with NDK . hth with dreads ? maybe if they have blood angle claws .

 

Cortez build are also tight on points so runing normal rifle man is a better option . Its all a matter of points and what is more useful for the lists. Would it be awesome to have 3+ venerables in every list ? sure if it was a free upgrade.

[thade]

Jeske...no elucidation?

if he plays 1-2 dreads then he is either playing 3 NDK and can only run venerables or he is playing draigo which at less then 2500 offten runs only one dread[and its better to run a venerable then].

I'm sorry, Jeske, but this is a false dichotomy. He could be running a great many builds that vary wildly from those two you put forward.

 

HTH Dreads still have merit here as - unlike the poor Vanilla dex's Iron Clad - the GK codex has a delivery system for melee Dreads: the Storm Raven. Even without the claws, Dreads are still beefy in assaults; you know as well as I that krak grenades and that single power fist are poor insurance. Do they pose a threat? Of course...but not a huge one. I've seen more than one of my tactical squads get slowly mulched as that stressed-out sergeant whiffed for 2-3 turns of combat. If that Dread is Venerable, even when the fist does get through it might get vetoed.

[the jeske]

dreads are crap in assault . low number of A [bA at least has the claws] against anything with MC they are dead as dead can be . normal squads tar pit them . If someone wants to do hth then NDKs are just better[faster with scout and personal teleporter , dont have a one turn down time like SR transporter dreads would + a lot smaller things like not being killed by Fists in one round or hurt by kraks/melta bombs] .

 

 

as the better builds goes. Well technicly he can put anything he wants in to a list as long as it is FoC legal , but that doesnt change the fact that themost optimal way to use dreads is either use 3 , 2 venerables or non . depanding on the builds used and points played.

 

 

 

I've seen more than one of my tactical squads get slowly mulched as that stressed-out sergeant whiffed for 2-3 turns of combat. If that Dread is Venerable, even when the fist does get through it might get vetoed.

so a LR costed transport a dread and probably another unit inside +being forced to play a death star build , all this and the dread tar pits a tactical ??? that is very bad. if stuff costs that much It should kill stuff [as we dont realy have unkillable stuff anymore].

[Morollan]

A Dread with TL-Autocannons at BS4 is going to hit 3-4 times when it shoots. (It's very, very annoying being on the receiving end of these Psy-riflemen, I tell you.) It gains very little going to BS5

 

Just did some quick number crunching and by my reckoning BS4 to BS5 on a twin-linked weapon takes your hit % from 88.88 to 97.22 - so not a bad increase and, when shooting is the only thing you do, why not do it better? When combined with the added durability of a venerable dreadnought I'd say it's probably worthwhile if you can afford the points.

[thade]

so a LR costed transport a dread and probably another unit inside +being forced to play a death star build , all this and the dread tar pits a tactical ??? that is very bad. if stuff costs that much It should kill stuff [as we dont realy have unkillable stuff anymore].

Take your blinders off, jeske. I'm sure you can see there's more to it than that.

 

First, the dumb stuff: the bird can't get locked down in an assault. It can still fly around, ferrying troops and laying down fire power with it's 4++ cover save (3++ if it has a Libby passenger). It can also carry some DCA, Strike Knights, Paladins, whatever so the Dread won't be charging in alone if he doesn't wanna.

 

Finally...if you did use that set-up to lock down a tactical squad, wouldn't you have done that because it was the right thing to do at that time? Sure, if there was a better use for the unit, you could do that...and, frankly, you easily could because it's in a Fast Skimmer Transport. The Dread can tarpit a counter-charge unit while the other unit in the bird eats whatever that counter-charge unit was trying to protect.

 

And Morollan, I'm not sure an ~8% increase in hits is worth 60 points. Insofar as 4d6 are concerned, it's pretty tiny. <3 But it's nice icing on the "Re-roll that Wrecked result, please."

[Morollan]

And Morollan, I'm not sure an ~8% increase in hits is worth 60 points. Insofar as 4d6 are concerned, it's pretty tiny. <3 But it's nice icing on the "Re-roll that Wrecked result, please."

 

I just think that, if you have a unit that is designed solely to shoot stuff, an ~8% increase in accuracy on each shot is pretty decent, especially when it also comes with a massive boost to durability. Sure, 60 points is a lot, but if you have some spare points then I'd say it's worthwhile.