An honest GK Player.

[Blood Spartan]

Anyone who refuses to play is just being a poor sport...

 

i disagree with this, in tournaments perhaps its true, but locally people play to have fun..

alot fo the draigo hate in my area is based on the fact that they are near unbeatable with regular armies.. true they do have some weaknesses, but most normal run of the mill opponents dont really stand a chance.

so if your opponent doesnt want to spend his only free time away from the kids and wife and job rolling dice and removing models with no chance of winning then surely you should be more understanding... no?

sure we can argue winning isnt everything, but if you dont stand much of a chance and get beaten everytime, you soon get fed up with it.

 

remember theres two sides to every story, at the moment GK are a winning army, that may change.. but you should try to be understanding of the reluctance to play instead of merely calling them poor sports

 

This is what I like to see. A GK player that sees what the rest of the non GK players are seeing.

[Deschenus Maximus]

See what? Sillyness?

 

"Near unbeatable" my arse.

[Babel_Triumphant]

I think that part of it is people's love of missile launchers over lascannons and plasma cannons. Those weapons can kick some paladin ass.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

They're also allergic to TH/SS terminators, which are certainly not unusual now.

[Dropsik]

See what? Sillyness?

 

"Near unbeatable" my arse.

quoted for truth.

 

DraigoWing is in fact more simple to beat than "normal" GK lists. They are just easy to get - very few models that you have to assemble and paint.

 

but nowhere near unbeatable level.

 

cheers!

[Grimtooth]

Draigowing is going to go the way of TWC heavy lists. They dominated when the codex came out and then faded away as people learned how to deal with them.

 

Seriously, if you are having problems with GK, Draigo or not, then look at your own list before complaining about your opponents.

[Atlantic]

What is a TWC list? I don't recognize the acronym.

 

On the Draigo / GK front, they are bad ass, but totally beatable. I had a pretty epic moment not too long ago with a vindicator. One of my MM attack bikes popped a Land Raider with 8 Paladins, so they all tumbled out into the crater. My vindicator then shot them and didn't scatter. I got all but one of them.

[Brother Landrain]

The problem with DraigoWing is that they break what was the current Meta-game.

 

What do I mean?

 

Well ML Dev Spam really wont do anything against DraigoWing.

Between, 2+ saves and FNP, you need way to many missiles.

 

Meltaguns are great against them, you just need to get close.

And you need a LOT of them.

And you will get charged if you do. Str 4 or more, with PW's, and Init 6 will wreck a lot of units.

This really limits the usefulness of MSU style lists. with 5man squads with 1mg 1 pf in a Razor.

 

Psycannons and Psyfilmen can really hurt Razor Spam lists also.

 

At 1850, a GK can have 15 Pally, Draigo, Librarian, and 4 Psyfilmen.

That will wreck on average 7 transports a turn at 24"

 

AV13 holds up a lil better, as they need 6's to glance, but evry glance is an auto Pen, as it is rending.

And with 24 Str 7 shots and 16 Str 8 shots...

Vehicle get stopped faily easilly.

 

So are they unbeatable? NO.

I have done it, so have others.

 

You need strong AT, and low AP. Which seems like common sense, but the stronger and harder you hit, the fewer shots you get.

killing 3-5 models a turn, is acceptable vs a 20 model GK army..

Against 200 Orks? or 120 DE, thats another story..

 

But they make it a challenge, and also, leave you in rather less desireable position vs other current armies.

 

I am currently using an all-comers list that combines MSU-Razor/AV13/Libby spam.

And it works rather well against everyone I have played.

 

I have yet to run up against an all Fearless Army, which is my one weakness.

But I feel the other parts of the army AV13/MSU-Razor will mitigate that weakness.

 

What is a TWC list? I don't recognize the acronym.

 

Thunder Wolf Cav...

[BOBMAKENZIE]

...

 

Well ML Dev Spam really wont do anything against DraigoWing.

Between, 2+ saves and FNP, you need way to many missiles.

 

...

 

(They dont get FNP against stuff double their toughness. :3)

[Atlantic]

They don't really need it though. Krak Missles are AP 3, they have a 2 +

[AngelofSorrow]

What Garbage! I have quite a bit of experience against Draigowing in my area. They are a tough fight but far from unbeatable. I don't build net lists or tournament lists. Between my 3 space marine armies I own 1 rhino chassis vehicle (being my Baal pred). My Best games against them are with my DoA list. I also play GK. They are far from the monster that people make them out to be.

[Grimtooth]

They don't really need it though. Krak Missles are AP 3, they have a 2 +

 

Terminator armor is dealt with as is has always been dealt with, volume of fire. After psyrilfe dreads are taken out, then those krak missiles salvos can join in with the other volume of fire being dealt to them. Volume of fire makes terminators roll 1's, period. The bonus of those krak missiles 1's are they are ID.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

They don't really need it though. Krak Missles are AP 3, they have a 2 +

Id take one in 6 missiles killing one over 1/36 (whoops!) 1/12 any day of the week :)

[SamaNagol]

Blood Talon dreadnoughts do beautifully vs Grey Knights.

 

It's just a shame they FAQd Hammerhand to break the rules of the game and give them St10 Hammers instead of St9

[breng77]

Well ML Dev Spam really wont do anything against DraigoWing.

Between, 2+ saves and FNP, you need way to many missiles.

 

With the exception of Draigo Pallies don't get FNP against missiles just armor, which means about 1/6 Missile wounds will kill a paladin, the problem is that usually you have more than 4 missiles firing at a time, 3 probably hit and wound, Draigo eats 1, so you get 2 wounds on the actual pallies, so you need 3 Dev squads per turn firing to kill 1 paladin per turn.

 

 

At 1850, a GK can have 15 Pally, Draigo, Librarian, and 4 Psyfilmen.

That will wreck on average 7 transports a turn at 24"

 

Not even close unless we are talking about assaulting parking lots. You have max 6 psycannons and 4 dreads, of which if you combat squad you can fire at 7 different targets.

 

Each Dread averages 0.59 Destroyed results per turn (a bit more for Venerables), so together they kill abotu 2.5 Transports per turn assuming average rolls. The paladins (combat squads with 2 psycannons.) average about the same 0.59 (a little higher if the psycannons are master crafted), so about 1.8 destroyed transports per turn average. SO on average you are looking at 4 to 5 dead transports (AV 11) per turn.

[SamaNagol]

Paladins aren't even scary. 5 dreadnoughts, Coteaz, Death Cultists and Strike Squads in Razorbacks are scary.

[thade]

There is some merit to missile spamming 2w terminators...as missile launchers are cheaper and easier to spam than otherwise more effective lascannon. Yes, they save on 2+, but a failed 2+ means a completely dead terminator. 1 in 6 seems unimpressive at a glance...but how many missiles are you throwing at him? :) Not to mention it won't just be missiles, right? Meltas and lascannons can also be firing from that unit. <3 No different than killing Nurgle-ized Chaos cult marines: you stack enough bolter wounds on there and they'll go down.

[SamaNagol]

2w, 2+ save and FnP is not the same as Nurgle Marines by a long shot.

[Atlantic]

Missle Launchers are effective weapons and they are cheap, but just how many missle launchers are you going to cram into your list?

 

I think more than two devastator squads packing missles is probably too much. Tactical Squads and scouts are an option, but you don't see many people running those. You could go with Land Speeder Typhoons.

 

I think a better solution is plenty of melta + missle launchers, and a liberal smearing of las. Plasma is good too, but not popular.

 

I have two 2500 lists. How good they are is debatable, but they tend to work out for me. In both of them, I bring 9 MM Attack Bikes. Between the 9 Melta Blasts, and bolter fire, they tend to be a pretty effective weapon for breaking up Terminator Squads.

 

Grey Knights aren't fearless and Paladin Squads tend to be small. I've never seen more than 8 of them in one squad. If you kill at least 3, they have a good chance of breaking. 9 Melta shots gives you a good chance of getting more than 3 of them.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

2w, 2+ save and FnP is not the same as Nurgle Marines by a long shot.

Its what I would think a Nurgle Terminator would be.

[BlackKnight1239]

Unless this list begins to dominate tournaments (like, say, more than 50%) and actually begins winning them, pushing other lists out, I don't think anyone can really complain. Isn't just the Ork Nob Biker deathstar over again? Massive, big tough unit that'll get you if you don't see it coming? I mean, Paladin's basically fold to focused plasma fire. Just bring more plasma, and be the better general.

[SamaNagol]

Legions in 2012 will let us find out!

 

Auto/Las preds are good dealing with Draigo lists. 2 Lascannon shots and 2 Autocannon shots will mean you should be killing 2 a turn and throwing some weight of fire on there to chip away. And they can deal with Psyfleman Dreadnoughts.

[thade]

It really comes down to squads that can lay down more than one Instant Death threatening shot when they fire: if your squad only puts one Lascannon shot into them, Draigo will just soak it. (We're talking about the Death Star, right? If he's not there, you're in much better shape.) If you put two or three in, Draigo can only soak one. 5++ isn't great, so that second melta/lascannon shot could burn away a Paladin for you.

 

DW has a big problem with the number of targets it can engage each turn: it's only got three to five units (!) whereas you could have as much as twice as many with very few targets to choose between. Focus fire for you becomes a bit easier. The Death Star is scary, but it's also lonely.

 

Nobz were pulling the wound allocation durability shenanigan long before Paladins hit the scene. Paladins are a bit better at it, but they're still not invincible and the same tricks still apply. Like Nobz, they're immune to small arms fire. So use anti-tank weapons, en masse. Pile the wounds on and try not to feed them lots of useless bolter wounds alongside the anti-tank shots (that will play to their wound allocation games, worst case allowing them to stack ID shots on a single already-wounded Paladin).

 

Keep your head and take advantage of superior mobility. Feed them Rhinos that they Wreck then have to trundle around or through. Interpose terrain. Slow and steady will win this race.

[SamaNagol]

Oh yeh, ATTACK BIKES! They have a 24 inch range so can threaten with Instant Death shots from outside of charge range.

[HERO]

Oh yeh, ATTACK BIKES! They have a 24 inch range so can threaten with Instant Death shots from outside of charge range.

 

Yeah, Attack Bikes are really good vs. Paladins. Sits outside charge range comfortably and puts out Meltagun shots.

 

Dreadnoughts (the generic ones) are really good too. Sits there with twin-linked Las or a MM and then has S10 instant kill vs. the Libby (carrying Might of Titans). Have a Furioso nearby and all of a sudden, things start looking good in your favor.

 

GKs really don't like Furioso Dreadnoughts. Or Storm Ravens w/ MM/Lascannon and 4x BS missiles.