Atlantic Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Attack Bikes are my favorite units. I just wish they weren't so expensive monetarily speaking. I had to do some serious ebaying to get mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Lets make this thread BA related and quickly, or it needs to move to another part of the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Kill it and be done with it. :D G :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 How is it not BA orientated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilicate Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I'm sorry, buy why to paladins just fold to all of this strength 8 shooting? Keep in mind a 3+ cover save from The Shrouding AND a nice Draigo to take hits from every time you shoot at them. I've out-played the crap out of this list, and could literally do NOTHING to it. I threw 19 Dark Lances at it, took one wound from Draigo. Unless you have the chance to knock out the psychic powers (only really SW have the ability to do this with reliability), you're hosed. BA can counter it somewhat, but throwing 30 DC at something in order to win seems like a waste of points, and highly circumstantial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 The Paladin unit is a COLOSSAL waste of points if all they are doing is sitting in cover and firing Psycannons, so they need to advance towards. you. Being a very fast moving army, you can force them to traverse open terrain to get to you. This allows your Attack Bikes, Storm Ravens and Fast Predators and Razorbacks to get clean shots at them without the benefit of 50% of the unit being in cover. You need to beat Draigowing with movement, the S8+ AP2/1 shots are a given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilicate Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 If you're playing with 25% terrain, and they have other units in the army, than yeah, the army doesn't need to not move around alot. It's super easy to even walk across the board and still have cover every single turn. A 4+ save is EXTREMELY easy to achieve. Or if you're playing KP, they don't ever have to move. It can just hunker down and fire 4 master-crafted Psycannons at you all game long, with little chance for repercussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 It really isn't. Not with a 12" move on multiple firing platforms in our list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilicate Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Then I'll just have to say, agree to disagree? I just don't see it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Here's a good idea against paladins, storm ravens. For the cost of draigo and a deathstar of paladins you can easily field 3 Stormravens with twin plasma/lascannons, twin multi melta/typhoon and 4 one shot S8 AP1's. Assuming a lascannon/multi melta setup this would amount to 12 lose S8 Ap 2 shots and 6 twinlinked S8+ AP2- shots on turn 1 and only 6x tl S8+ AP2- shots afterwards. 600 points for the GK player equals Draigo and about 6 paladins. Of course that would be pretty tailored against draigo wing but if you field even one storm raven with either a multi melta or lascannon you can already shoot 5 instant death shots of which one is twinlinked. Another option is a vindicator, one shot good shot and Draigo wing is pretty much gone. I field one in my casual list specifically against things like terminators and other heavy infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I play all jump packers but I can see a storm raven entering my list to enjoy some ranged plas las shooting against the GK's. The fact that the SR already compliments a JP list and can carry a dreadnaught and a scoring troops choice makes it even better. I can also see using a couple of cheap and cheerful DS squads to threaten the psyfleman. I know there are other tread options but I like jump packer's and its going to be the SR or back to a Raven wing and spam the melta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 How is it not BA orientated? This thread started out with discussing how powerful GK is. Not how BA should be fighting GK. The first 15 or so posts are not BA related at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I'd like to think we have subsequently pulled it round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I'm sorry, buy why to paladins just fold to all of this strength 8 shooting? Keep in mind a 3+ cover save from The Shrouding AND a nice Draigo to take hits from every time you shoot at them. I've out-played the crap out of this list, and could literally do NOTHING to it. I threw 19 Dark Lances at it, took one wound from Draigo. Unless you have the chance to knock out the psychic powers (only really SW have the ability to do this with reliability), you're hosed. BA can counter it somewhat, but throwing 30 DC at something in order to win seems like a waste of points, and highly circumstantial. I find the last line rather ironic considering the nature of the Paladinstar you're discussing. Draigo + Libby + 5 Paladins is usually near to 800pts. Rather than beating your face against it, just avoid those jerks- they can only move 6+d6" each turn, so just leave them chasing your (tire tracks/jet plumes) and wipe the rest of his army out. If he clusters absolutely everything up together to stop that, laugh and claim all the other objectives he can't get to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I'm sorry, buy why to paladins just fold to all of this strength 8 shooting? Keep in mind a 3+ cover save from The Shrouding AND a nice Draigo to take hits from every time you shoot at them. I've out-played the crap out of this list, and could literally do NOTHING to it. I threw 19 Dark Lances at it, took one wound from Draigo. Unless you have the chance to knock out the psychic powers (only really SW have the ability to do this with reliability), you're hosed. BA can counter it somewhat, but throwing 30 DC at something in order to win seems like a waste of points, and highly circumstantial. I find the last line rather ironic considering the nature of the Paladinstar you're discussing. Draigo + Libby + 5 Paladins is usually near to 800pts. Rather than beating your face against it, just avoid those jerks- they can only move 6+d6" each turn, so just leave them chasing your (tire tracks/jet plumes) and wipe the rest of his army out. If he clusters absolutely everything up together to stop that, laugh and claim all the other objectives he can't get to. I imagine eldar and their runes can mess with GK psykers and a Dark Angels bike list with 30 plus meltas, Ezekiel and his table wide hood are going to be very unpleasant for GK. I think AbusePuppy has hit the nail paladin on the head, the damn thing (draigostar paladinstar whatever) cant move around that well its more like a monolith often you can just ignore it. Take out the long ranged shooting which will be three models or less of psyfleman. If it clumps for protection leave it alone, all those combat buffs dont do much unless they are in combat. Once the shooting in the army is reduced to 24" you can just sit back holding objectives. For BA there is ample access to a lot of options that shoot low ap long range. I might have to look at my jump packers and say well some matchups are not ideal but given 66% of all games have one or more objectives draigostar cant afford to leave me alone he needs me to engage. I know BA jump packers need to be aggressive and attack but this is one case where we proabably equal or outnumber the GK opponents models and we move much better. We just shift our tactics dont attack everything we see. Eliminate the long range threats and take a few killpoints, then move and frustrate them. I am thinking out aloud here trying to find a way to use my supposedly less than optimal versus Grey knights BA jump pack list, if you use more LR low AP shooting I think your options should get a lot better. Heck arrive second turn melta/assault some shiny stuff with a cheap squad of Troops. 150 pts gets you a melta an infernus pistol and a sgt with melta bombs. Even if they dont trash the psyfleman on the drop with 2 meltas the psyfleman alone cant shoot all 6 marines in one turn and the Sgt goes again next turn. Its not totally sound but its one more option. At the OP I can understand a certain reluctance to face GK, I understand it perfectly. Soon as people learn its more fun annoying the shiny new thing by playing it and not letting it bang you on the head that will change. I predict it will probably get frustrating being an inexperienced GK draigo player. You only win if I let you kill me in CC or dont do anything about the nasty LR shooting from a few models. Good GK players however will not be expecting instant win/instant death from enemies blindly charging your draigostar everytime. ;) . I have put a bet both ways and am painting up some more GK to go with what I used as allies from my DA days The whole draigostar thing looks like a bunch of fun to me either figuring out how to upset the draigocart or playing with it none of us should mind. Like the rest of the emperium I am sure I will manage to cope with this change, because change is a constant sate state :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 After a full re-read I'll re-open this for the useful stuff that is scattered about, and just remove the non-related stuff. As James has said (twice) please keep it on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muadib02 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 As i was quoted in the original post, I would just like to say something. The discussion this was pulled out of was about people refusing to play someone because the had a GK army (it devolved into a draigowing conversation). At any rate, when I stated that "anyone who refuses top play is a poor sport," I was outraged at the idea of someone walking up to the table, looking at my codex and then walking away before I had even told them my list. I am generally open to new experiences, and see a tough list at the table as a challenge, but I am by no means a competitive player. I sympathies with those who are just looking for a casual dice toss, but it just seems alien to me to refuse a game based simply on what army the other guy is playing...then again our community is a bit small so i dont really have the luxury of turning down a game most of the time. I have had Tyrannid players pack up against my DE after turn 3, a couple of times...but that was because their MCs were dead and most of their army was locked in CC or fleeing. But I have never had anyone just walk away before the game started. I really have to disagree with the whole Draigowing is unbeatable thing...we have 4 GK players in my area, who all did very well with their previous armies, they switched to GK, tried (by proxy) draigo wing and were very unimpressed. They have since moved on to more conventional or Coteaz lists. I played against Draigowing with my DE, had lots of fun, but 15 Dark Lances earned their pay. Draigowing is financially inexpensive, easy to use, and blunt as a rock...but it is able to be countered by any 5th ed army (except maybe Tyrannids, but they really got the shaft this edition) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Thank you for re-opening as I feel discussion based on countering the numerous viable GK builds is very productive for us a community. The obvious choice is Draigowing, but as I have mentioned before I don't believe that is close to their most competitive build of Grey Knights. 4 Troops choices of Strike Squads with a Psycannon and Hammer in Heavy Psy-Bolter Razorbacks 2 Purifiers each with 2 Psycannon and a Hammer with some Halberds in Heavy Psy-Bolter Razorbacks Venerable Dreadnought with TLAC 3 HS Dreadnought with TLAC And Coteaz with Death Cult Assassins also in Razorbacks. This list excels in every phase of the game and has very few weaknesses. And it scares me. It can out shoot AND out Assault our lists generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I do not think the problem is Draigo-Wing or GK being unbeatable. The problem is more that the Codex was written at Staples... Just Hit the Easy Button. Just about Everything in the codex is undercosted. There are very few BAD units to choose, and some units are so good its obvious. Shooting Phase: Yes there is a long Range weakness. But everything they have is move and shoot. And 1 30" threat Range with high Str is nothing to ignore. Movement: Yes a lot of their armor does Footslog, but again, they are not restricted by move or shoot decision. And they have pretty reliable DSing.. And can get in your face fast. Assault: Init 6 Str 5+ No Saves Instant Death... need much more? Psychic Phase: Strangely I think this is their weakest spot. While Dreads and Reinforced Aegis are tough to handle. Everything having a psychic power and wanting to activate them every turn, will cause a good amount of Perils Rolls. Also, Librarians Powers are strong but many are phase limited! Read them carefully. A GK ARmy will seldom have more than one hood, and its not as good as SW's so it is easier to Cast Powers..{except those dang dreads} which thankfully GK players seem to always Hold Back. GK are susceptable to several Powers. Morale: No More army wide Stubborn or Fearless. This is from my View their biggest weakness. Combined with only a few Ld10 options, GK strangely enough are very susecptable to failing Morale test, especially with a little help from BA Librarians... Also their inherent low model count helps here. It is hard to maintain complete long range fire superiority, but it is doable for a few turns. Using Fast Vehicle Movement helps a lot here. Playing Keep away with movement is also doable to an extent, but once they close to 24" their firepower is substantial. Assault, only large overpowering multiple assaults are effective, commiting a large chunk of your forces, and expect losses. Do the above and try to force as many Morale Checks, once they start running try using mobility to keep them from using ATSKNF. While I do not think that Draigowing is their strongest mode, I tend to think a Purifier Army is stronger, A DW does provide more matchup problems for most current army builds. It just means we need to overcome and adapt... well until everyone goes Heretic and makes a CSM Legion army... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAGABOND Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Sorry but Draigowing is not that hard to beat, they can be beaten by some good armies and decent players. As they are easily outnumbered and the sheer amount of wounds can drop them regardless of FNP. There are some nasty builds with GK and Draigowing isn't as hard as everyones making it out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volcatus Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Recently I faced off against a Coteaz list featuring no less than 3 Chimeras full of Death Cult Assassins and Storm Shield Crusaders. Additionally he had Paladins with a Librarian. I did table him at the end of turn 5, but I believe I only did as well as I did because I saved the Paladins for last. I ran my usual Blood Hammer style list. The DCA/Crusaders are scary as hell. I'd rather chip away at the slow, slow Paladins all game than face those. They fell to Devs, mostly. But I did send one unscathed unit packing with Fear. On the whole, they did far more damage to me than the Paladins did though. The Paladins took 3 turns of melta, missiles, and CC to finish off. Although tough as nails, they only took out a unit of Sang Guard in CC. If the player in question were to convert the points into Psyfle Dreads and more DCA/C, he'd be pretty hard to deal with (in my opinion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Good win for you mate. G :woot: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Sorry but Draigowing is not that hard to beat, they can be beaten by some good armies and decent players. As they are easily outnumbered and the sheer amount of wounds can drop them regardless of FNP. There are some nasty builds with GK and Draigowing isn't as hard as everyones making it out to be. I am curious to know what are your counters vs Draigowing that work well for you. G :woot: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Sorry but Draigowing is not that hard to beat, they can be beaten by some good armies and decent players. As they are easily outnumbered and the sheer amount of wounds can drop them regardless of FNP. There are some nasty builds with GK and Draigowing isn't as hard as everyones making it out to be. Please, if you are going to make statements like this then elaborate with tactical points, unit choices which are hard counters to the GK units and ways in which you can saturate wounds onto Paladins. Because it will take 240 shots of S4 AP3 or worse shooting from a BS4 model to kill 1 Paladin in a unit of 5 with an Apothecary and unique Wargear. Two hundred and forty. To kill one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAGABOND Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Well trying to keep this on the subject of Blood Anglels I'd have top say 3 Stormravens with TL Lascannons, TL Plasma Cannons and Bloodstrike Missiles. Backed up with Dante and his SG Unit filled with 5 IP will drop them. My Throne Of Skulls Deathwing List would drop Draigo & his Paiadin Unit with focused firepower and the same goes for any other army out there. Let's be honest Draigo can't stop them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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