SamaNagol Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Factoring in Draigo and it becomes over 300 shots to kill 1 person. And StormRavens can have Lascannons or Plasmacannons. They can have Multi Melta and Lascannon though. So if you only move 6" you can theoretically in one turn fire a one off salvo of 6 shots which would all ignore armour saves and cause Instant Death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAGABOND Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I did mean to say Lascannons & Multi Meltas, my bad. Any army can take this unit out, even armies that cause lots of wounds are enough to drop them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Please, if you are going to make statements like this then elaborate with tactical points, unit choices which are hard counters to the GK units and ways in which you can saturate wounds onto Paladins. Because it will take 240 shots of S4 AP3 or worse shooting from a BS4 model to kill 1 Paladin in a unit of 5 with an Apothecary and unique Wargear. Two hundred and forty. To kill one. It takes 432 Lasgun shots to kill one model in such a unit. Your move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volcatus Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Please, if you are going to make statements like this then elaborate with tactical points, unit choices which are hard counters to the GK units and ways in which you can saturate wounds onto Paladins. Because it will take 240 shots of S4 AP3 or worse shooting from a BS4 model to kill 1 Paladin in a unit of 5 with an Apothecary and unique Wargear. Two hundred and forty. To kill one. It takes 432 Lasgun shots to kill one model in such a unit. Your move. Math Hammer. The only winning move is not to play. :P The following commentary does not reflect the text quoted above: Anyway, every time I read Draigowhine, I have to wonder what people are really looking for. Some kind of big red "Easy" button that makes them go away? Math Hammer shows us how tough they are, sure. At the end of the day though, they're like a lot of other Rock units. Fight them on their own terms and they win. And as we all know, 40k "tactics" are about fighting your opponent on your terms. BA can beat them, but we don't have a "Paper" counter to their "Rock". Big deal. *shrug* Accept the fact that it's an uphill battle when you face them, and grow as a General. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Lmao! Point proven! Units like that are why people spam Melta and Lascannons. Missiles are good when they are cheap, but for a 4 missile dev squad you can get a Predator AutoLas set up and have 10pts to buy someone a Meltagun elsewhere. I would really say our best strength is our ability to move 6" further than any other Marine force and still retain the same shooting prowess. This applies to Draigowing or Purifiers and Death Cult Assassins in Razors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Well trying to keep this on the subject of Blood Anglels I'd have top say 3 Stormravens with TL Lascannons, TL Plasma Cannons and Bloodstrike Missiles. Backed up with Dante and his SG Unit filled with 5 IP will drop them. at 1500 pts.. Draigo Inq in TDA w/Psycannon 3xPsyfilman 3x 5 Paladins w/Halb and 2xPsycannon 12 Str 8 Twin Linked AutoCannon Shots and 28 str 7 Rending PsyCannon Shots...@ up to 7 Targets @24"... Make 3 StormRaven's Cry... vs. Dante 3xSG w 5xIP 3xSR w LC/MM Can Possibly Target up to 6 Targets @24"... with 4 Str 8 ap1, 1 TL Str 9 Ap2, 1 TL Str 8 ap1... That can possibly take out a 5 man paladin squad... but its a one trick pony. And you can only move 6" the SG can, IF you get within 6" of the Paladins you can hurt them with 5 IP's... But its pretty much a one chance or you will just die horribly to the Paladins return fire. I could just as easilly say 3 Vidicators can drop a pie on each paladin squad and kill them all. Odds? Low. Doesn't matter the strategy or tactics, you get one shot at it. And then its too late. All require a good dose of luck and the advantage of going first. That is the problem people have with DraigoWing, It requires your good/ their bad luck to have more than an even chance at winning. Draigo Wing and GK in general are very very forgiving for poor/sloppy/badluck play. Thats a reason why SW are also so strong, with Counter Attack they are forgiving of poor tactics more so than other MEQ armies, ooops I left myself open to being charged... Oh I only roll 15 Dice, instead of a normal marine Tactical squads 6 or so.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAGABOND Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Draigowing are a one trick pony, either they work well or die horribly. I'm sorry but math hammer proves nothing but that some people have way too much time on your hands. It's all good and well saying yeah it takes such and such shots to kill a Paladin but when it always boils down to what actually happens in a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropsik Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I must say that I don't get it. I was talking recently with my friends about Draigowing, and really it has many weaknesess. Especially when facing BA's, maybe not necessarily all DoA list, but rather hybrid or mech one. The posted list, one which includes 3 x 5 squads of paladins, is just funny. squads are to small to withstand concentrated lascannon and melta fire backed up by nice assault unit. Biggest advantage of Draigowing is their ability to withstand fire and still be able to whoop in close combat. 5 man unit, when shot to about 3 - 2 paladins is just as good as dead. real problem is big units, like 10 man paladin squad with psycannons and halberds, and including Draigo and Librarian. that unit not only can withstand large amounts of heavy fire, it can also play wound allocation on draigo and libby. that unit is hard to deal with. but they're extremely slow, and limited to 24" + 6" threat range. lascannon razors, predators, land raider, and even stormravens have much larger threat range. and when you inflict enough casualties, just assault them with 2 - 3 units. sure, you'll propably lose some models, but with instapowerfisting and large amount of normal hits you should reduce paladins to scrap and win the combat. let's remember it's something about 1200 points, so it's not really that strange that this unit is so tough. but hey, when pal's are over, it's pretty much good game - was fun time. there is a LOT of much more scary GK builds around. BA's have superior movement, superior long range shooting, and when combine 1200 points of CC units - also the same or even superior close combat ability. Seriously, why so whining? cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I must say that I don't get it. I was talking recently with my friends about Draigowing, and really it has many weaknesess. Especially when facing BA's, maybe not necessarily all DoA list, but rather hybrid or mech one. ... Seriously, why so whining? cheers! They are so weak... That explains why Almost Half of the Armies headed to the 'Ard Boyz Finals are GK... Its easy to say.. well just Spam them with a lot of low AP/High Str shots and they die... Except for a few Vehicles.. Las/Las Pred, SR with LC, very few units have the chance to even cause more than 1 Low AP wound a turn, especially Outside of a 30" Range from the Paladins. As soon as you Break 30" you are going to take a lot of return firepower. Psycannons wreck anything fairly easilly. Str 5 SB's put out a lot more death at 24" than RAS squads. Yes there are things that CAN hurt GK and such, but they come with a lot of extra filler that becomes useless in actual effect vs them. MSU and LC Razors? yeah they will work, but need to stay 31"+ away, and then get 1 maybe kill a turn. The 5 man RAS, with MG/PF, sure might be able to kill a couple, but they have to get in range. Effectively that MSU squad becomes about 200 pts to try to kill 1 Paladin a turn, and trys to stay out of 24" away. Not very efficient. DOA? Charging a Paladin unit with 2-3 10 Man RAS squads? Again, not very efficient, and you need to close range during which the GK outgun you considerably. Thats what it boils down to is the highly efficient and forgivable GK, make for a lot of bad matchups vs a standard BA/SM/SW all comers list. And we wont even discuss the problems that Nids and Daemons have.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropsik Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 They are so weak...That explains why Almost Half of the Armies headed to the 'Ard Boyz Finals are GK... never said so. What I said was that 5 MAN PALADINS unit are weak. and indeed they are - would love to face that build anytime. 10 man paladin unit with draigo and libby - much more scarier than 3 5 man units. Its easy to say.. well just Spam them with a lot of low AP/High Str shots and they die... it's not easy to say, but we are talking about 'how BA can deal with draigowing?' - and BA can easily bring many such weapons to table. whether they are vindicators, predators, razors, land raiders, stormravens whatever. on 2k I have about 12 lascannons in my list, and still having some cc specialists. I imagine they'll put a dent into paladins, especially if I'll be able to hood this funky cover power from libbrarian. and, there are a lot of lists, that include many more heavy shooting and still have some terminators, or mephiston around. Except for a few Vehicles.. Las/Las Pred, SR with LC, very few units have the chance to even cause more than 1 Low AP wound a turn, especially Outside of a 30" Range from the Paladins. dude, very few vehicles? thats like ALL vehicles I put in a list. and hardly more can be included in other lists. predators and razors form core of many lists, that aren't all jump infrantry lists. and in BA - you can move at least 6" and let fly with all your guns. you can move exactly as fast as draigowing and still pour fire into them, staying safe from his psycannons. Psycannons wreck anything fairly easilly. Str 5 SB's put out a lot more death at 24" than RAS squads. I disagree. they wreck rhino chassis fairly easy. predators and land raiders are much heavy nut to crack for them. and s5 SB pack a lot of death to assault squad? like what? one or two marine? remember the FnP from priest? MSU and LC Razors? yeah they will work, but need to stay 31"+ away, and then get 1 maybe kill a turn. I don't know how your lascannons work, but my 12 kill more than one paladin a turn. I imagine that more heavy shooting lists can put even larger dents. The 5 man RAS, with MG/PF, sure might be able to kill a couple, but they have to get in range. Effectively that MSU squad becomes about 200 pts to try to kill 1 Paladin a turn, and trys to stay out of 24" away. Not very efficient. not using them. 5 man assault squads are for scoring - put them on objective and forget about them. I've been always advocating that gearing them with anything more than meltagun (on occasions) is waste of points. DOA? Charging a Paladin unit with 2-3 10 Man RAS squads? Again, not very efficient, and you need to close range during which the GK outgun you considerably. like I've said - DoA lists will have problem with draigowing due to not having long range support firepower. I've never claimed otherwise. but if you could combine 3 assault squads with characters and meltaguns, and maybe some devastator fire - there's a good chance to win the combat. but in hybryd list? I would gladly charge 5 man pally unit with 2 assault squads. especially if there is some librarian around to hood hammerhands and grant preffered enemy. and they not outgun me considerably. with 12 SB shots it's like 1 marine dead. and if he's shooting at my assault marines - he's not shooting at my vehicles. Thats what it boils down to is the highly efficient and forgivable GK, make for a lot of bad matchups vs a standard BA/SM/SW all comers list. And we wont even discuss the problems that Nids and Daemons have.. all coming SW and BA army shouldn't have problems with beating draigowing - not any different than any other list that is. deamons are just sad panda's - I have a deamon army, and I wouldn't even put my models on the table if I would face GK's. and with SM armies - well, I think that Shrike build, with lot's of terminators would be able to play on even ground. all in all. I agree that GK and draigowing are difficult list to fight against - but really not any different from SW lists/ BA lists/IG lists and maybe few more. so I don't understand all the "we're doomed" whining. cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I don't know how your lascannons work, but my 12 kill more than one paladin a turn. I imagine that more heavy shooting lists can put even larger dents. Here is where I have an issue, and see a weakness in that argument... sure you get 12 LC shots.. but one at a time... thats a lot different than firing 12 LC shots at once. With 12 SB shots it's like 1 marine dead. and if he's shooting at my assault marines - he's not shooting at my vehicles. it wont be 12 SB shots.. more like 6 SB at str5 and 8 Rending Str 7 Psycannon shots.. I do not say we are doomed, not at all. I know how I beat GK, and its not a simple easy win. It takes a lot of effort and some luck. I have no illusions that I will always or easilly win. And people here who make comments about how easy they are to beat without posting their army list and tactics used, need to go troll somewhere else.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropsik Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Here is where I have an issue, and see a weakness in that argument... sure you get 12 LC shots.. but one at a time... thats a lot different than firing 12 LC shots at once. well, sure, some of them will be allocated to draigo, for sure. but after first turn, when he will drop in wounds it won't be an issue. and if you are firing from predator or LR it's even more marginal. nevertheless, In my list I pack 12 lascannons, and it's also heavy on CC. what with more shooty mech list? which can not only pack more lascannons, but also attack bikes, vindicators? it wont be 12 SB shots.. more like 6 SB at str5 and 8 Rending Str 7 Psycannon shots.. about 2, maybe 3 marines dead. not really impressive in case of BA's units. I do not say we are doomed, not at all. I know how I beat GK, and its not a simple easy win. It takes a lot of effort and some luck. alright. what I say, is that beating draigowing is just as hard as beating any good list - SW, BA's, Nids', IG's, other GK's. it's the same level of difficulty. and you need luck in all your battles, GK are non different. But saying you need more luck when fighting GK's... I just disagree. And people here who make comments about how easy they are to beat without posting their army list and tactics used, need to go troll somewhere else.. agreed. it's not an easy fight - It's GK, one of my personal top 3 in power level right now. Right after SW and before BA's. cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 The 3++ blog has a piece on Draigowing today: http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/10/...owing.html#more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volcatus Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 The 3++ blog has a piece on Draigowing today: http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/10/...owing.html#more Yeah, unsurprising we've inspired Puppy to be verbose. Good article AP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilicate Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 It's cute that we can sit here and talk about taking objectives, but that's 2/3rds of missions. What about the other 1/3 of the time, when you're got KP? Your opponent is definitely going to cluster up - what then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I liked the fact that half the article involved Grey Knights rolling badly. Anyway, Draigowing is only one build of this list, and definitely not the best. For me, regardless of the build I always see Psyfleman Dreads. At least 3. They are always my target number one, as they are the only things that threaten my mobility at range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantic Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I played a tough GK list a couple of weeks ago that was not Draigo wing. It was 2500 points. I played my BA mech list w/ Mephiston and a Reclusiarch. I don't play tailored lists as I play a variety of opponents. My friend brought Coteaz 4 small squads of henchmen in 4 psybolt assault cannon razorbacks. Two 8 man squads of GK Terminators (no paladins) each in a Land Raider Crusader. (I believe both LR had multi meltas) A Teleporting Dreadknight. Two Dreadnaugths packing Twin Linked Las Cannons for long range fire support. The dreadnaughts and razorbacks all had hunter killer missles. We rolled for mission and deployment. Both were capture and control, one was spearhead, the other was pitched battle. I was able to win the spearhead deployment pretty handily as I was able to pop enough of his armour before it got in position to really hurt me. I had an epic moment where i popped one of his land raiders and was able to kill the entire gk squad with one vindicator shot. The 2nd game was a whole different story. He was able to cripple a good chunk of my armour with a ridiculous early shooting phase. All in all, I felt like this list was a lot harder to deal with than Draigo. Basically he had 4 cheap mobile scoring units in tanks, some long range fire support, and two squads of GK terminators bearing down on my army. He didn't quite have the rock that is draigo and paladins, but two squads of terminators each in transports was no small thing to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Here is my article I published last night how to fight GK: http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2011/10/n...ersus-grey.html It is a lot shorter but I think it gets the main points across well enough. Basically you might have to use some new tactics - the good thing is you don't necessarily have to totally revamp your armies. G ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Yeah, unsurprising we've inspired Puppy to be verbose. :lol: Truly, only something the mightiest of internet warriors can achieve. ;) I liked the fact that half the article involved Grey Knights rolling badly. Yes. Yes, that is exactly what I said, you hit the nail on the head good sir. I realize I can be a bit over-talky, so it's nice to have you around to really condense the article down to its essential point there. It's cute that we can sit here and talk about taking objectives, but that's 2/3rds of missions. What about the other 1/3 of the time, when you're got KP? Your opponent is definitely going to cluster up - what then? Kill off something vulnerable, avoid them the rest of the game. The army isn't particularly mobile nor does it have good range once you've crippled the Psyflemen. You should be able to basically just dance with it the remainder of the turns at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Kill points is always going to be a big problem versus Draigowing... there are no simple solutions. The good news is 2/3 of the time a mission is typically objective based. G ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilicate Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Kill off something vulnerable, avoid them the rest of the game. The army isn't particularly mobile nor does it have good range once you've crippled the Psyflemen. You should be able to basically just dance with it the remainder of the turns at that point. So, let me get this right? You purpose trying to kill something without reprisal, then attempting to stay completely out of the threat range of the deathstar (which is 30"). Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropsik Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 awww, c'mon, there's plenty of tactics to play against draigowing with BA. a) play with mobility. not only most of BA's units can move 12" - thus staying outside of melee range - many of our units can move 12" and still shoot. and many can move 6" and shoot with everything. and many can zoom up to 18" if paladins come to close. So, you can stay outside of his threat range - about 30" - and still shoot with almost full efficiency. you have possibly 2 safe from paladins turns, and if you are super smart - even 3 - 4 turns. (for example - in DoW deployment, put one razor in the middle of the table - thus pushing paladins as far as possible) paladins will propably be spread wide, to cover as much board as possible. so, if you can manouver your assault units only to face a flank of paladins - you could fight will all your models, and paladins will only bring half of his models. you could tank shock him to death, OR if you can separate one or two models, and then assault them with two squads - creating extremely nice situation. you should tank shock him with two razor/rhino/predator/LR so as to create a triangle like this: (P - paladins) \...1...\........./...2.../ .\...1...\...p../...2.../P ..\...1...\..../...2.../ ...\...1...\../...2.../P ....\...1...\/...2.../ P..P..P..P..P..P..P where space between vehicle 1 and 2 is occupied by one or two paladins, and rest of the unit is either in front of the vehicles or on a side (you should also bring maybe one or two more vehicles as to prevent pile in moves). so, when you separate one or two models - assault them --> withstand those terryfing 6 attacks ---> bring all your attacks ---> win combat. it's not an easy move, because you have to plan your movement one turn ahead, and also, somewhat spread you vehicles. also, your opponent have one turn of shooting to stun, immobilize or utterly destroy your vehicles. and finally - you have to put in your list some CC unit/units that can dish enough damage, to win combat (you'll lose some models initially due to halberds, but it should be insignificant loss: 2 - 4 marines). So, there's a lot of if's and but's. If you manage to pull that move - can win you whole game. :D firepower - BA's can pack a lot of S8/9 AP1/2 firepower - exactly what is needed for ID paladins. for example: - Vindicators - Predators - Razors - Land Raiders - Stormravens - Attack Bikes - spam of meltaguns so each of BA's shooting phase will be very hard for Draigowing. Sure, some of shots will be surely dished on Draigo, but after first turn, he should take two or three wounds - GK player will now have to risk droping him beyond the point of no return. subsequent turns should see paladins stedily dropping in numbers. when they drop to 5 man - consider your job done and look for opportunity for massive charge. c) speaking of which - close combat. BA have some of the BEST cc units in system. FC Assault Terminators, WS5 DC with Chaplain, even FC assault squads accompanied by librarians can put some nice chainsword death to pallys. just be sure, that you bring enough of those, and try to charge in such way, that no more than 3 models can hit each unit - thus minimising losses. ID powerfisting should help. OR you can just make fun of those pally's, and throw Furioso Librarian at them. sure, they can eventually destroy him, but it could take them enough time for you to prepare for dealing with them. so - luck? don't think so. yeah, you need lady luck help every game. quoting my friend: "you don't win games with bad rolling". but depending on it? I'll rather depend on my tactical prowess, my codex superiority, and me outsmarting my opponent. cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I guess its all over for Draigowing players around the world. Oh well it was fun while it lasted. G ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropsik Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I guess its all over for Draigowing players around the world. Oh well it was fun while it lasted. not sure if trolling. cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Dry humor is not necessarily trolling. I think I have been posting long enough in this forum most people here know me well enough. : ) G :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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