An honest GK Player.

[Volcatus]

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Pretty sure this is a Space Invaders strat... Wait... ;)

[SamaNagol]

Sorry I just read the article again. It's too funny.

 

"They can only target 5/6 vehicles a turn" and "There aren't enough turns in the game for them to wipe out all of your units"

 

Both hilarious in Kill Points scenarios. If they are only giving away 7KP total, and have units you almost cannot wipe. Have incredibly few units meaning that their damage output isn't as rapidly reduced by taking the average statistical damage, compared to MSU builds who's damage output drops steadily as it takes damage.

 

A Draigo list will still be pumping out nearly full shooting damage come turn 4, whereas statistically a MSU mech list will be looking at 7 smoking craters that used to be AV11 hulls. Even Psyflemen Dreads are tough to take down when deployed in cover with good firing lanes.

 

I most certainly agree with targeting Psyflemen Dreads first, they are much more dangerous to your mech than Psycannon are. And if you lose your mech, you cannot out manoeuvre the GK units. And then you are most definitely dead.

 

I have some ideas on how you can assault Paladins, but I need to read the rules fine print for resolving multiple combats first and check.

[AbusePuppy]

Kill off something vulnerable, avoid them the rest of the game. The army isn't particularly mobile nor does it have good range once you've crippled the Psyflemen. You should be able to basically just dance with it the remainder of the turns at that point.

 

So, let me get this right? You purpose trying to kill something without reprisal, then attempting to stay completely out of the threat range of the deathstar (which is 30"). Seriously?

 

Its threat range is more like 12". In a 2000pt game, 4-6 Psycannons and some Storm Bolters are not exactly scary shooting, and if your army can't deal with that... it's terrible.

 

Sorry I just read the article again. It's too funny.

 

"They can only target 5/6 vehicles a turn" and "There aren't enough turns in the game for them to wipe out all of your units"

 

That wasn't actually what I said, as I was referring to some armies, of which BA isn't one. But if it's five-Tervigon Tyranids? Yeah, guess what, you're gonna spend the whole game trying to punch Termagants to death.

 

Both hilarious in Kill Points scenarios. If they are only giving away 7KP total, and have units you almost cannot wipe. Have incredibly few units meaning that their damage output isn't as rapidly reduced by taking the average statistical damage, compared to MSU builds who's damage output drops steadily as it takes damage.

 

That's true, except that most of their shooting comes from non-Paladin units, which are not nearly as durable. Again: 4-6 Psycannons and some Storm Bolters. That's the shooting you expect at 500 or 750pts, not 2000. The army is extremely weak on shooting and slow to move, so you shouldn't have a lot of problems keeping cover/blocking LOS to his Psycannon models.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A good GK player will take the midfield where the psycannons are most effective. The army's shooting is very good and can remove three to four units per turn. Over the course of three turns that's a lot. They have some weaknesses like any army but it will take a good player to exploit them.

 

G :)

[appiah4]

I think the most reliable counter against Draigowing is AV13 spam.

 

3 Dakka Baals

3 LasPlas Preds

3 Fragriosos in pods

 

tie the paladins up with Fragriosos and keep moving and shooting your predators.

[SamaNagol]

The world needs to know about the glory that is Fragriosos.

[Vilicate]

The world needs to know about the glory that is Fragriosos.

 

:D

We have a winnah!

[SamaNagol]

2 S6 Rending Templates, a Meltagun and a Magna Grapple are going to make someone's day sad.

[AbusePuppy]

Hammerhand, Hammerhand, Hammerhand, and Might of Titans are going to make someone else's day much, much sadder.

[Grey Mage]

If you cant deal with GKs bring more warm bodies and more plasma. Despite the potential utility of the syphon, I never see it taken.

 

At 55pts, before any upgrades, you can afford alot of firepower that will ignore Paladin armor- wether it be plasma, lascannons, or melta... or starcannons.... or disintegrators..... etc.

 

Draigowing can be a tough fight, but its no more cheesey than my Eldar codex, or the BA one.

[Glendor]

I would just like to say that everyone should check out Black oranges blog. Not as BA related as it used to be :tu: but There are some awesome articles on there. You can see there that he plays draigowing and read their strengths to discover their weakness.

[SamaNagol]

Hammerhand, Hammerhand, Hammerhand, and Might of Titans are going to make someone else's day much, much sadder.

 

I should hope so for 800pts. The 175pts is worth it to drop that squad down to 2/3 strength.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Don't forget Sanctuary so the dread strikes last. :cuss

 

G :D

[Glendor]

I think that draigowing was originally created as a fun list that would be relatively cheap to make. The people that began for that reason are not going to just stop playing it whether it goes out of style or not.

[thade]

If you cant deal with GKs bring more warm bodies and more plasma. Despite the potential utility of the syphon, I never see it taken.

 

At 55pts, before any upgrades, you can afford alot of firepower that will ignore Paladin armor- wether it be plasma, lascannons, or melta... or starcannons.... or disintegrators..... etc.

 

Draigowing can be a tough fight, but its no more cheesey than my Eldar codex, or the BA one.

This. All of this.

[appiah4]

Hammerhand, Hammerhand, Hammerhand, and Might of Titans are going to make someone else's day much, much sadder.

 

So what, I will probably have removed near half of your 800pt squad while you managed to kill one or two 175pt dreadnoughts that were suicidal units in the first place (unlike your paladins), not to mention that I can drop a third one next turn and repeat.

 

Someone can do the mathhamer for two Fragriosos templating Draigo and a bunch of paladins for 4 S6 rending templates, 2 S8 AP1 shots (alternatively 2 S5 templates) and 2 Magna grapples but I'm willing to bet that it would take about half of them off the board. Who's scary then?

 

If he keeps them in the land raider, wonderful, I'll just slaughter his dreadnoughts/troops with one and their raider with the other, then pound the paladins with Predators from a comfortable range.

 

Tell me how this logic fails, I can't see it.

[breng77]

Someone can do the mathhamer for two Fragriosos templating a bunch of paladins for 4 S6 rending templates, 2 S8 AP1 shots (alternatively 2 S5 templates) and 2 Magna grapples but I'm willing to bet that it would take half of them off the board. Who's scary then?

 

Actually it ends up killing about 1 Paladin (maybe 2) and doing 4-5 additional wounds(which could be 2 more paladins). And that Assumes no Draigo to eat all of the S 8 shots. You average 2- 3 S 8 wounds and 27 regular wounds and aroudn 5-6 rends. This is 34-35 wounds so they will wrap around, Draigo will eat all of the ID wounds, then You can spread around the Rends and regular wounds. If you put all the rends on 2 Paladins they will likely die, and then the other paladins should be able to absorb the rest. This assumes no Feel no pain.

[appiah4]

Someone can do the mathhamer for two Fragriosos templating a bunch of paladins for 4 S6 rending templates, 2 S8 AP1 shots (alternatively 2 S5 templates) and 2 Magna grapples but I'm willing to bet that it would take half of them off the board. Who's scary then?

 

Actually it ends up killing about 1 Paladin (maybe 2) and doing 4-5 additional wounds(which could be 2 more paladins). And that Assumes no Draigo to eat all of the S 8 shots. You average 2- 3 S 8 wounds and 27 regular wounds and aroudn 5-6 rends. This is 34-35 wounds so they will wrap around, Draigo will eat all of the ID wounds, then You can spread around the Rends and regular wounds. If you put all the rends on 2 Paladins they will likely die, and then the other paladins should be able to absorb the rest. This assumes no Feel no pain.

 

That template resolution sounds wrong, the template should deal two hits to each model under it when placed in a way it can hit maximum posible enemies, you can't spread those rending wounds around like that. So basically, assuming you get 2-3 people under the template (average 2.5 for simplicity's sake) just the Frag cannons will deal 4-6 rending S6 hits each to 2-3 models seperately, unless I'm totally wrong about how template weapons work. If I'm correct that should by itself kill at least 2 Paladins not counting the Meltagun or Magna Grapple.

 

EDIT: OK re-reading the rules and it looks like I'm not right, template wounds are allocated on any model in the unit (I hate wound allocation).. But anyway, by my math you get about 12 S6 Rending hits, 3 S8 AP1 hits 1 S8 AP2 hit o average. That should amount to about 2 wounds from S6 rending, 3 ID wounds from S8 AP2/1 and (EDIT) 7 wounds from non-rending S6.

 

That's 27 wounds for 6 models, so you can dump 3 ID wounds on Draigo but that means you still suffer 2 wounds on Paladins from rending and 1 from non-rending, meaning you probably lost 2 paladins (3 if unlucky) and took 3 woudns on Draigo.. Good luck with that. (/EDIT)

 

I don't get your math at all. 34-35 wounds?...

[breng77]

exactly and my math is based off the unlikely scenario of hitting 10 or 11 models with all 4 templates. It comes down to allocating wounds not hits, so the more wounds you do the worse it ends up in most cases (at least so long as you have higher quality wounds in there as well.)

 

If you hit 3 models, YOu would get 6 Hits, which average 5 wounds one of which will be rending, then one S 8 wound, So Draigo eats The S 8, Then 5 Different paladins take each wounds. You likely wound 1-2 (the rend +/- 1 other wound). The second Dread does the same, and you end up (on Average) Draigo taking 1 wound and 2-4 Wounded Paladins. So no models missing.

[appiah4]

exactly and my math is based off the unlikely scenario of hitting 10 or 11 models with all 4 templates. It comes down to allocating wounds not hits, so the more wounds you do the worse it ends up in most cases (at least so long as you have higher quality wounds in there as well.)

 

If you hit 3 models, YOu would get 6 Hits, which average 5 wounds one of which will be rending, then one S 8 wound, So Draigo eats The S 8, Then 5 Different paladins take each wounds. You likely wound 1-2 (the rend +/- 1 other wound). The second Dread does the same, and you end up (on Average) Draigo taking 1 wound and 2-4 Wounded Paladins. So no models missing.

 

OK, basically what I calculated above, then I do the same with the second Fragrioso, now you have Draigo with 2 wounds and started taking Paladin casualties, your squad is mostly wounded, and I can happily blast away at it and watch it de while it hopes to assault something meaningful.

[breng77]

Actually it is only likely that Draigo will take 1 wound due to his 3++ save. SO you have On Average Draigo with 1 wound and 2-4 wounded Paladins after both dreads fire. NOw I'm not saying the rest of your list won't help, but really the best chance Furiousos have against a Draigo Deathstar are if they are EIther 2 Boodfist style in close combat (as every wound would go to the squad and not draigo, and every unsaved wound = dead paladin) or Librians as they can cancel psychic powers which makes it hard for the Paladins to hurt the dreads, while they still get S10.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Like everytime someone puts stuff up about Mathammer. The whole problem is that the dice rolls are luck. Really their isn't saying that he rolls 6 ones on the 5 wounded Pallies and Draigo where the Dreads just made their points back and just crippled the GK army.

[thade]

Ah, Draigo Wing.

 

Nobz have been playing the Wound Allocation game for a long time. They have been near-invincible to bolter fire for years now...and that's without 2+/5++ all around and a 2+/3++/5w/EW model attached to it. They will take a massive, massive pounding. By the end of the game, a Draigo Wing without an Apothecary will have two to four models left standing, each with 1w remaining. This is pretty typical, given the bat reps we've been shown on this site so far.

 

Can you gun them down? With tailored lists, you can do quite a number on them...but that was never really the question in my mind. The question remains: how do you deal with this massive wound-soaking beast with a generalized all-comers list?

 

Here's the math you requested spelled out and hedged so people who hate math can still follow. <3 A "Fragriosi" hopping out of a Storm Raven (assuming it slips past the inevitable hail of Psycannon fire) is interesting. He'll land and - under ideal conditions, score ten to twelve hits with his template (and I mean, those Paladins are perfectly under the tear drop). Wound on 2s, that's awesome. If you rolled twelve dice, you can expect two of them to Rend. Let's be nice and say a whopping four Rend. So, 4-invuln only saves and eight (sure, all eight) normal saves. And the two melta guns = 2 ID shots coming in...both hit and wound (which we all know is nearly impossible because, srsly...doesn't everybody always miss with a single melta shot? :blink: )...

 

Draigo will try and save one melta hit. Even if he fails that awesome 3++, he's only taking one wound.

One poor Paladin has to try and 5++ a melta hit...if a paladin with non-essential gear already has a wound on him, he'll be the fall guy. (That's how this works. Sorry, 1w Paladin...but on the bright side, this melta hit probably failed anyway.)

Eight Paladins have to make a 2+ (which allows a 4+ FNP if the Apothecary is present...the whole "immune to bolter fire" thing applies here).

One Paladin left will have to suck it up and try to save for a Rending shot.

Two Rends left (good roll!) and Draigo and that poor melta-to-the-face Paladin each take those.

 

Worst case, Draigo takes one to two wounds, that one Paladin is hosed and you have a mass of 1w-left very angry Terminators that are going to Psycannon the crap out of your Dread. Pretty good trade-off! Except, the reality is that it won't be nearly a worst-case scenario for the Paladins. Very likely they'll make most if not all of their 2+ saves and at least one of the 5++s against a Rend...meaning you'll drop three to four wounds max on this squad with that epic amount of focused fire power. Injecting more reality, you'll do half that many wounds, and the Draigo Will will be almost entirely unscathed, Draigo shrugging off the single melta shot that got through and his goons maybe losing a single wound to a successful Rend.

 

It's good, but it's not an all-in-one solution. It's good enough that I'd definitely feed it to Draigo and his goons while trying to skirt around him and take up positions, slowing down the Death Star with Rhinos and other crap vehicles to get in their way and deny them consolidation moves.

[SamaNagol]

Because rolling badly is not a tactic or a strategy. You can never plan for bad luck.

 

Remember that each Dread fires separately. So you can't bundle al those wounds together.

 

And if I was facing a huge Draigo unit I'd actually put the AutoLas Preds and Melta Bikes into them first as well. Because I can eat Psyfleman Dreadnoughts for breakfast in Assault with Death Company so I don't care about them that much.

 

But as I have been saying for a while, I don't really see *good* players taking huge Draigo points sink units. It's usually DCAs, Purifiers and Strike Squads all in Razorbacks with TLAC Dreads as support.

[JamesI]

But as I have been saying for a while, I don't really see *good* players taking huge Draigo points sink units. It's usually DCAs, Purifiers and Strike Squads all in Razorbacks with TLAC Dreads as support.

This is the kind of GK list I mostly see.