An honest GK Player.

[thade]

The tailored anti-Draigo Wing list is what you might imagine. It's either superior mobility, massive anti-tank fire salvo units, or both. If you hit the unit with only one S8+ AP2 or better wound, Draigo will just step in front and knock it down. Massed bolter fire is virtually useless (just like it is against wound-allocated Nobz...actually, far worse than that). Charging them or allowing them to charge you is in many cases suicide (though some units in particular, like Hammernators, Calgar, Grimnar, the Sanguinor will put a bit of hurt on either the unit or Draigo...not good at taking on both though).

 

If you hit the unit with two or more S8+ AP2 or better shots for a unit that fires and don't spam them with armor-saveable wounds to allow them to overflow the ID shots you can shave off a Paladin at a time. Things that are good for this: Land Raider Phobos with Multi-melta, Las-cannon Predator, Lascannon or Multimelta toting Dev squads, Storm Ravens, and the like. Things that will disappoint you are Assault Cannons, Plasma weapons, Autocannons (even the S8 Psy-ammo ones because they're armor savable), and anything less.

 

Play it the way number6 recommends on the OI board: feed them small sacrificial units in a way that either forces them to charge away from their goal (limiting the value of a consolidation move) or empty Rhinos so they either have to slog around it or through the Difficult (and potentially dangerous) terrain it leaves behind after they eat it. (Recall, no consolidation moves after popping a vehicle in assault...this includes Walkers! So appiah's throw-a-dread-at-em method has some merit, if it is expensive.)

[SamaNagol]

And they are scary lists! Because they excel in every one of the 3 phases of the game. They can shoot you to bits, they can assault almost anything and they can move relatively well.

 

I can see why taking Njal is becoming so popular. 3+ says "nope sorry, you can't do that"

[breng77]

Like everytime someone puts stuff up about Mathammer. The whole problem is that the dice rolls are luck. Really their isn't saying that he rolls 6 ones on the 5 wounded Pallies and Draigo where the Dreads just made their points back and just crippled the GK army.

 

But it is just as likely that the attacking player rolls 6 ones to wound. And it is far more likely that the Paladins make all of their saves with 2+ and then FNP. Planning a strategy around "well if my opponent rolls a statistical abnomality this will work great.", is a poor tactical choice, unless it is the only choice you have at the time. If that is the argument you might as well jump a whole bunch of assault marines up and shoot the paladins with bolt pistols because they might roll a bunch of ones.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Agreed... you should be ready for the worst case. It's not always if ever be ideal.

 

G :P

[thade]

Planning a strategy around "well if my opponent rolls a statistical abnomality this will work great.", is a poor tactical choice, unless it is the only choice you have at the time.

Definitely true.

 

If you put something in your list because you think it's purely cool...that's okay. If you put something in your list, because "It might come up," it's okay if it's cheap. :P Honestly, I find that anything that's cool and highly situational is almost in all cases better left in the case in favor of a tactical squad. <3

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Planning a strategy around "well if my opponent rolls a statistical abnomality this will work great.", is a poor tactical choice, unless it is the only choice you have at the time.

Definitely true.

 

If you put something in your list because you think it's purely cool...that's okay. If you put something in your list, because "It might come up," it's okay if it's cheap. ;) Honestly, I find that anything that's cool and highly situational is almost in all cases better left in the case in favor of a tactical squad. <3

But you are also saying that the Squad will make all the 5++ against Rend and Meltagun and Magna Grapple which is a statistical abnomailty.

[breng77]

If you put something in your list because you think it's purely cool...that's okay. If you put something in your list, because "It might come up," it's okay if it's cheap. Honestly, I find that anything that's cool and highly situational is almost in all cases better left in the case in favor of a tactical squad. <3

 

Agreed, even moreso for in game decisions, there are times where you need to try things that go against mathematical or even common sense, because you are at a point where you need to catch a break to pull out a win. FOr instance I once charged a single attackbike into a squad of 9 lootas to try and break them because I needed the VPs to win the game. Now statistically I should not win that fight, but it was last turn and I had no other options at that point. But this is different from going into a game thinking that I need to charge my attack bike into those orks because they might roll horribly and wouldn't it be great if that happened.

 

In all honesty from what I have seen you are more often than not better off ignoring the Draigostar, and trying to take out the other threats in the army first. Then try to work on the deathstar. Tank shocking is also a good solution as if you can get them to fail morale, and walk them off the table it is a huge loss.

 

But you are also saying that the Squad will make all the 5++ against Rend and Meltagun and Magna Grapple which is a statistical abnomailty.

 

Actually it is statistically abnormal that both the melta and the Magna Grapple with hit and wound, so you are looking at Draigo making a 3++ on one of them (more often than not) and trying to make a 5++ on one rend, which even if it gets through is 1 wound on a 2 wound model.

[AbusePuppy]

So what, I will probably have removed near half of your 800pt squad while you managed to kill one or two 175pt dreadnoughts that were suicidal units in the first place (unlike your paladins), not to mention that I can drop a third one next turn and repeat.

 

Uh, what? No you haven't.

 

Someone can do the mathhamer for two Fragriosos templating Draigo and a bunch of paladins for 4 S6 rending templates, 2 S8 AP1 shots (alternatively 2 S5 templates) and 2 Magna grapples but I'm willing to bet that it would take about half of them off the board. Who's scary then?

 

If he keeps them in the land raider, wonderful, I'll just slaughter his dreadnoughts/troops with one and their raider with the other, then pound the paladins with Predators from a comfortable range.

 

Tell me how this logic fails, I can't see it.

 

First of all, you can't fire all those guns because a Furioso can only shoot two weapons. But assuming the templates catch five models each (which is pretty dang generous, I think) you have twenty hits, eighteen successful wounds (three of them Rends) and approximately one successful wound from the two Melta or Magna (since they're statistically identical.) Not, with seven models in the squad, that means just about everyone is taking three wounds, which leaves us with some choices for how to allocate, but in all likelihood we either put the Melta + 2 Rends on Draigo (to make losing a model as unlikely as possible) or we put them all on one of the Paladins (to "sacrifice" him for the others.) Because they happen in two batches it will actually be a little different from this, but the net effect is pretty close to the same- we're looking at 1.x failed invulnerables (which will likely kill a model) and 2.x failed armor saves (which will probably not kill a model). So for ~350pts you have... killed probably one Paladin.

 

And then the unit multicharges you and both your Drop Pods and likely destroys them all because they're swinging first with two penetration dice. Derp.

 

Trying to out-rock a rock results in you getting your face smashed in because they do it better than you. Don't try it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The real problem with the dreads arriving in pods is you will be assaulted by whatever is left as AB stated above... And it's gonna be fairly annoyed. :yes: I think the Stormraven is a better approach, not great but definitely better... Load it up full of Death Company with a Librarian and a Recluisarch (maybe even Astorath) as well - plus of course yer dready. I would take a Death Company dreadnaught with a pair of Bloodfists for the instant death attacks over a pair of Blood Talons.

 

I haven't had any problems dealing with BA dreads with my Draigo/Librarian/Paladins... I either cast Sanctuary if the opponent doesn't have any psychic defense or setup in cover. In cover versus a BA opponent with psychic defense you'll at least get off one casting of HH then the daemonhammers will wreck the dreads. Draigo can take out a dread by himself if MoT goes off (assuming the deathstar charges) so you won't even get to swing simo at I1.

 

The potential beauty of the Stormraven is coming onto the table from reserve and lighting up the Paladin deathstar with all your Bloodstrike missiles as well as one lascannon shot. You have to soak the deathstar with lots of S8+ AP2|AP1 shots so your opponent can't allocate all the wounds to Draigo. Most Draigowing armies don't have more than two psyflemen so if you can disable one early on then the Stormraven has some chance to deliver it's cargo for an epic assault. Death Company are WS5 so the Paladins are hitting on 4+ in melee rather than 3+. If you load up on power weapons and can swing back (rerolling hits and wounds) you're going to inflict some serious damage.

 

G :D

[Brother Landrain]

First of all, you can't fire all those guns because a Furioso can only shoot two weapons.

 

BRB pg 72. col2. par5. Walkers can move and fire ALL of their weapons just like a stationary Vehicle.

 

just to be clear on that point :)

 

I run Librarian Dreads, while they have much less shooting.

In CC they are Huge Tarpits for Paladins.

Seldom do you see more than 1 Hammer.

The Paladins tend to rely on Hammerhand and Might of Titan(only his phase!)

With a Hood, you have a decent chance to keep those suppressed.

And with no buffs, a Libby Paladin will win combat vs a Paldin unit.

Break them and then FOD their butt!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Against Draigo he is S10 versus psykers so it's prolly best to leave yer Libby dreads on the battle barge. ;)

 

G :)

[SamaNagol]

First of all, you can't fire all those guns because a Furioso can only shoot two weapons.

 

Lmao. Look forward to your next insightful article dude. Keep it up!

[appiah4]

First of all, you can't fire all those guns because a Furioso can only shoot two weapons.

Come again?

 

Your math is wrong, the tactic will kill 2+ Paladins and wound many others and (IMHO) a completely workable tradeoff especially considering podding Fragriosos are sacrificial units.

 

Getting multi-charged by the REMAINING paladins is actually GOOD becuase if say, Draigo and remaining 4 or so paladins multi-charge my 4 models it's LIKELY that one of the Furiosos will actually get to swing back with an S10 DCCW. If he doesn't multicharge them I will have Drop Pods slowing his hammer unit down.

 

Not to mention that I actually will have ONE MORE Furioso to repeat the above, and probably all but wipe out this unit.

 

Again not to mention that I will be pounding them with All kinds of Predators in the meanwhile.

[AbusePuppy]

BRB pg 72. col2. par5. Walkers can move and fire ALL of their weapons just like a stationary Vehicle.

 

just to be clear on that point :)

 

...Huh. I could've sworn there was a "walkers can shoot two guns regardless of speed" rule somewhere, but maybe I'm remembering another edition and/or conflating it with the MC rules instead. I stand corrected.

 

Your math is wrong, the tactic will kill 2+ Paladins and wound many others and (IMHO) a completely workable tradeoff especially considering podding Fragriosos are sacrificial units.

 

Aside from the extra two guns firing, I'm not sure where my math mistake is, so feel free to point it out to me.

[appiah4]

I've previously posted my math on the subject.

[breng77]

Which is actually wrong and makes a lot of assumptions (such as 3 out of 4 S 8 shots wounding)

For 1 Fragioso:

 

Lets assume that the Frag Cannon covers 6 guys (being generous and easy for math). That Results in 12 S 6 hits. 5/6 of these hits will wound, and ~ 1/6 of these hits will rend. So that ammounts to 10 wounds, 2 of which are rending.

 

Then then the melta shot which hits 2/3rds of the time and wounds 5/6ths of the times that it hits. This produces 0.556 wounds.

 

The same is true for the magna grapple so another 0.556 wounds.

 

So total from this dread you get 8 Regular wounds, 2 Rends, 1.111 (~1) Instant death causing wounds.

 

Draigo Eats the instant death wound which he will save 2/3 times

 

8 paladins take regular armor saves which probably wounds 1.

 

2 Paladins take 5++ saves, which probably wound those 2.

 

So you have 3 wounded Paladins and maybe a wounded Draigo (probably not).

 

Rinse and Repeat for Dread #2 and at best (assuming average rolls)you have 3 dead paladins and a wounded Draigo. More likely you have 6 wounded Paladins and an unwounded Draigo.

 

And that was assuming that you hit 6 Paladins. If you only hit 3 then you end up with half of that. (3 wounded Paladins or ~ 82.5 points worth of damage for 420 points worth of models (2 Dreads + pods)

[SamaNagol]

Edited for clarification:

 

You don't get a consolidation move against any vehicle.

 

This is not then altered in the Walker rules. Walkers can make consolidation moves themself, and combat resolutions are worked out. But against vehicles the caveat still stands that you can never make a consolidation move.

 

Which means if those Paladins charge and destroy the Furioso in his turn, they are left out in the open for my turn.

[breng77]

I'm pretty sure that you do get to consolidate after killing a walker, but I don't have my BRB on hand at the moment.

[VAGABOND]

Yeah you can consolidate after killing a walker, it's just vehicles you can't after you destroy them.

[Dropsik]

I'm pretty sure that you do get to consolidate after killing a walker, but I don't have my BRB on hand at the moment.

yup, you do.

 

the only dreadnaught I would toss at pallys is a furioso librarian. WS6 and hood can prevent him from being so easily smashed aside, and with 4 (or 7) attacks he can make some ID pallys.

but I would prefer whittling them down, and then just multicharge and have them on a run.

 

cheers!

[thade]

You gentlemen are actually mistaken. You do NOT get a Consolidation move after popping a walker. (It's VERY annoying.) Pay particularly close attention to the relevant rules. The first relevant rule is that you don't get to consolidate after popping a vehicle. (Note that a Walker is a kind of Vehicle.) The second relevant rule is what will confuse people: Walkers (themselves) DO get to Consolidate should they win combat. No where in the Walker sub-chapter does it say that infantry that wins against a Walker may consolidate themselves.

 

Secondly (though this may be cleared up, I'm not sure) a Walker can fire all of it's weapons the turn it moves and then may assault. It is not limited to two; that sounds like it might be from a previous edition. <3

 

Finally, if the Rending hits get through, they do ONE wound and make an angry Paladin (who won't get any wounds allocated to him in the next phase if the controlling player can help it); that's how wound allocation works. Not to mention, you'll probably only get one to two Rends through if any at all.

[VAGABOND]

Uh oh, thanks for pointing that out to me mate. :)

[Dropsik]

I don't have a rulebook, but as some others users I'm pretty sure you do have a consolidation move. but someone should check it in rulebook.

 

cheers!

[thade]

Uh oh, thanks for pointing that out to me mate. :)

Happens. :) There's a lot of confusion around Walkers in assaults. For instance, I've found it to be a pretty widespread house rule that Infantry can simply walk away from a Walker should it be Immobilized in an assault...but this is also not the case: you're still locked with it.

 

@Dropsik: I have had to look this up quite a few times now to resolve questions like this. If you want page citations, cross-post that question to the OR board. My book is at home.

[JamesI]

Uh oh, thanks for pointing that out to me mate. :)

Happens. :) There's a lot of confusion around Walkers in assaults. For instance, I've found it to be a pretty widespread house rule that Infantry can simply walk away from a Walker should it be Immobilized in an assault...but this is also not the case: you're still locked with it.

 

@Dropsik: I have had to look this up quite a few times now to resolve questions like this. If you want page citations, cross-post that question to the OR board. My book is at home.

 

I had an opponent once at a tournament end up with his assault marines and chaplain (no fist in there) against a dread. He kept demanding the right to fall back from combat, but the chaplain made him fearless so he couldn't.

 

I'm pretty sure you can consolidate after beating any vehicle with a weaponskill, which would include a dread, though it will be many hours until I have access to a rulebook to confirm that.