An honest GK Player.

[Dropsik]

@Thade cool bro, my servitors are already checking this out.

[Edit1] If a vehicle has a WS statistic you can consolidate after destroying it. waiting for page

cheers!

[thade]

I'm pretty sure you can consolidate after beating any vehicle with a weaponskill, which would include a dread, though it will be many hours until I have access to a rulebook to confirm that.

I haven't seen that anywhere and I have dug; not consolidating after taking down a Walker makes some sense (the things are intimidating) but can be annoying when there are pie-plates nearby and a smoking hulk my guys are encircled around. So...if you can debunk this for me, I won't complain. <3

[SamaNagol]

The only thing in the rules which is contrary in implication to the normal vehicle rules, which I am looking at right now, is that Walkers fight like infantry and will lock units in combat (which directly contradicts the rule otherwise in the Vehicle in Assault section) and it gives you guidelines on how to work out combat resolution (penetrating hits count as 1 wound). It says that Walkers may consolidate and sweeping advance themselves.

 

There is nothing which directly contradicts the ruling that you never make a consolidation move after destroying a vehicle in combat though.

[thade]

There is nothing which directly contradicts the ruling that you never make a consolidation move after destroying a vehicle in combat though.

Yep. :) That's as I remember it.

[breng77]

Checking the rule book it appears that Thade is correct, I think the confusion comes from the statement that walkers fight like infantry and that there is combat resolution (against normal vehicles there is none).

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Thade. The rules for ending combat with a vehicle specifically states "... there is no combat result, and so..." pg 63 With a work there is a result as per the walker rules on how to determine the results Vs. a Walker.

 

This is why you get a consol against walkers but not vehicles.

[Dropsik]

Thade. The rules for ending combat with a vehicle specifically states "... there is no combat result, and so..." pg 63 With a work there is a result as per the walker rules on how to determine the results Vs. a Walker.

 

This is why you get a consol against walkers but not vehicles.

 

sorry, my english is not that great, could you explain it with more details?

 

cheers!

[thade]

Thade. The rules for ending combat with a vehicle specifically states "... there is no combat result, and so..." pg 63 With a work there is a result as per the walker rules on how to determine the results Vs. a Walker.

 

This is why you get a consol against walkers but not vehicles.

Well that's good and complicated.

 

I'll cross-post this myself over on the OR board so we can beat on it good and proper.

[Morollan]

Suspect this is one of those great RAW v RAI debates. The vehicle rules specify that there are no pile-ins. consolidations or sweeping advances against vehicles because there is no combat result. The walker rules however say that there is a combat result and that the walker makes sweeping advances etc but does not specifically state that the walkers opponents do.

 

Seems pretty clear that RAW there is no consolidation after destroying a walker but it's equally clear that RAI there damn well should be!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I'm pretty sure that you do get to consolidate after killing a walker, but I don't have my BRB on hand at the moment.

yup, you do.

 

the only dreadnaught I would toss at pallys is a furioso librarian. WS6 and hood can prevent him from being so easily smashed aside, and with 4 (or 7) attacks he can make some ID pallys.

but I would prefer whittling them down, and then just multicharge and have them on a run.

 

cheers!

 

Never run a Libby dread at Draigos and his boys... The GKGM is S10 versus all psykers... he will shred that dread like so much tin .

 

G ;)

[AbusePuppy]

Gonna have to agree here- although the walker rules don't explicitly state that you DO get to consolidate when fighting against a walker, but the walker itself explicitly is allowed to do so (and can pile in, etc), so it feels very counterintuitive that the enemy is disallowed from doing so. And, as pointed out, the rules specifically tell you how to calculate combat results against a walker, which would make no sense if you follow the "no combat results" part of the normal vehicle assault rules.

 

If you want to get really picky about "it applies to the enemy but not to them," the rules state that walkers can be locked in combat (due to having a WS), but do not say that enemy units can be locked with a walker, so apparently the walker is stuck there but the enemy can just walk away if they want. ;)

 

I've never actually met anyone who played with walkers as disallowing consolidation, though, because it seems kind of silly. They fight assaults just like every other unit in the game.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is another blog article on how to p0wn GK:

 

http://11thcompany.blogspot.com/2011/10/de...110777809151756

 

G

[Dropsik]

Never run a Libby dread at Draigos and his boys... The GKGM is S10 versus all psykers... he will shred that dread like so much tin .

 

naaa. yeah I know. I would do so only when Draigo would be so far away that he couldn't pile in to base contact. however, even if he could, there's still a chance (a not big chance) that the dready will survive. But as I said, I don't like locking in combat, I prefer bashing and slashing and shooting to pieces tactic.

 

Cheers!

[thade]

So, turns out you do get to consolidate if you pop a walker; Bob is correct. (Hit the OR board for the quick elucidation, it's over there.) So, yay for infantry.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Thanks for the clarification. :)

 

G

[Brother Landrain]

Never run a Libby dread at Draigos and his boys... The GKGM is S10 versus all psykers... he will shred that dread like so much tin .

 

naaa. yeah I know. I would do so only when Draigo would be so far away that he couldn't pile in to base contact. however, even if he could, there's still a chance (a not big chance) that the dready will survive. But as I said, I don't like locking in combat, I prefer bashing and slashing and shooting to pieces tactic.

 

Cheers!

 

Draigo MUST be in BTB with the Dreadnought to attack.

 

People really seem to miss this point.

 

If I can charge the right side of a paladin unit and do 2-3 wounds and break them, since no fearless. I will take the odds.

 

Yes Draigo can hurt a Dread, but the dread still has a decent chance.

[thade]

The Dread has very little chance. Draigo hits it on 3s, gets what, 4 attacks base? At S10? That Dread is hosed.

 

My TDA Librarian with SS (BA codex) is my Dreadnought solution. Hitting on 3s at S10 even with only three attacks is a decent chance of ruining that Dread's day. Mephiston tears them up like paper. Draigo vs a Libby Dread is in the same category.

 

If you really want that Dread to work the unit, engage Draigo with something else so he can't pile-in to it. A squad with some storm shields in it, if possible...or at least something you won't miss after Draigo has eaten it. Honestly I'd only charge a unit with Draigo in it if I thought by doing so I'd slow him down sufficiently. Melee combat with Draigo and Friends is not my choice-place to be.

[breng77]

Acutally if you charged with a libby dread and a standard dread you could do ok (furiousos both). Just make sure you go BTB with Draigo with the standard dread. This gives you the hood + powers on one dread, while still occupying draigo with the other dread.

[Dropsik]

he Dread has very little chance. Draigo hits it on 3s, gets what, 4 attacks base? At S10? That Dread is hosed.

so he hits a little more than 2.5 attack and has about 50% chance to penetrate with each attack. and then only 5 or 6 is really worrying, since you don't have to be mobile after pushing paladins. yeah, I agree it's a bit disadvantageus fight, but 'hosed'?

 

Hitting on 3s at S10 even with only three attacks is a decent chance of ruining that Dread's day

 

why on 3's? furioso is WS6? and they strike at the same initiative.

 

Honestly I'd only charge a unit with Draigo in it if I thought by doing so I'd slow him down sufficiently. Melee combat with Draigo and Friends is not my choice-place to be.

 

I disagree. Under some circumstances, I would be glad to show pally's that they have some lessons to learn.

 

cheers!

[thade]

he Dread has very little chance. Draigo hits it on 3s, gets what, 4 attacks base? At S10? That Dread is hosed.

so he hits a little more than 2.5 attack and has about 50% chance to penetrate with each attack. and then only 5 or 6 is really worrying, since you don't have to be mobile after pushing paladins. yeah, I agree it's a bit disadvantageus fight, but 'hosed'?

Strength 10 needs 2 to glance, so you can expect to pen 2 out of 3 rolls.

 

why on 3's? furioso is WS6? and they strike at the same initiative.

Draigo and Meph are both WS7 or better. Meph is I7, he's going first. I can't speak for Draigo without codex in hand with regard to initiative.

 

I disagree. Under some circumstances, I would be glad to show pally's that they have some lessons to learn.

Assuming they don't have a Librarian attached (if they do, you can just kiss the Dread good bye, he probably won't get to swing), you managed to get to them without the bird being shot down by the ludicrous amount of Psycannon fire, and you're not charging the dread into cover after them, the Furioso might manage to kill a handful of Paladins. Then their S10 (single application of Hammerhand) hammers in Paladin brother hands will teach your Dread a lesson. ;)

 

There are effective ways of dealing with Paladins that don't involve feeding them expensive melee-kitted Dreadnoughts. Melee is their playground. Don't let them play in their playground.

[Dropsik]

Strength 10 needs 2 to glance, so you can expect to pen 2 out of 3 rolls.

Furioso is AV13.

 

Draigo and Meph are both WS7 or better. Meph is I7, he's going first. I can't speak for Draigo without codex in hand with regard to initiative.

 

but you were talking about:

 

My TDA Librarian with SS (BA codex) is my Dreadnought solution. Hitting on 3s at S10 even with only three attacks is a decent chance of ruining that Dread's day

 

which will have problems with WS 6 AV 13 Furioso.

 

Assuming they don't have a Librarian attached (if they do, you can just kiss the Dread good bye, he probably won't get to swing), you managed to get to them without the bird being shot down by the ludicrous amount of Psycannon fire, and you're not charging the dread into cover after them, the Furioso might manage to kill a handful of Paladins. Then their S10 (single application of Hammerhand) hammers in Paladin brother hands will teach your Dread a lesson.

I doubt it. And I don't see many Hammers in Paladins unit. maybe one sometimes. but mostly halberds. so I stand by my opinion that with a bit of luck, and carefull placement Furioso could be a nice distraction for Pallys.

But my whole CC comment was in fact referring to your's comment about CC invincibility of Pallys. At full unit - yeah, I agree - they're hard to push. But, as I shown previously, you could win against them with tankshocking them in appropriate way, and separating one or two models from the rest of the unit, and then block pile in moves by positioning of some other units. And if they are reduced to half unit, or even less - I would consider assaulting them with two or more units.

 

Cheers!

[thade]

I doubt it. And I don't see many Hammers in Paladins unit. maybe one sometimes. but mostly halberds.

Virtually all of the Paladin Death Star builds I've seen bring three hammers, two at a bare minimum. This discounts Draigo's S10 attacks against the Libby Dread as well. If the Paladins have a banner (which is typical) they have three attacks each when they are charged...and Draigo + the unit is two applications of Hammerhand, so the Halberds are at S7. Ten paladins with three attacks a piece is 30 swings at S7 which will shred the dread on 6s. Sound familiar? It should...it's the same principle on which GK spam Psycannons for.

 

Again, the presence of a GK Librarian means the Furioso does not stand a chance.

 

At full unit - yeah, I agree - they're hard to push.

My impression was that the wound-allocated Draigo Death Star was the topic here. They are slow, slogging melee monsters. A Furioso isn't the way I'd go. It has some merit, but honestly with Fast Rhinos and jump troops I'd feed the Death Star empty Rhinos and flank them with assault team combat squads so - if Draigo and Friends charge - it takes them away from where they'd otherwise like to go (objectives, the rest of my army, etc.) limiting the value of their consolidation move. Nip at their heels and trip them up.

 

But, as I shown previously, you could win against them with tankshocking them in appropriate way, and separating one or two models from the rest of the unit, and then block pile in moves by positioning of some other units.

I say this quite a bit as - in theory - it's the way to go. But it's hardly magic and not an automatic win. If your opponent knows what he's doing, it's never an easy game. Hitting a giant anvil with giant hammers is not the way I'd go. I'd actually mire the giant anvil down in mud and skirt around it.

 

And if they are reduced to half unit, or even less - I would consider assaulting them with two or more units.

They are immune to small arms fire, put out 20-30 attacks stationary (40 on the charge !) not counting Draigo...all Force Weapons with a healthy number of S10 attacks. If there's a Librarian in there, it's a Dreadnought killing zone. When every single model swings three times when charged at S6+ with 2d6 armor pen...it's a bad day for a Furioso.

 

If you always bring a Furioso in your list, well...what else is he going to do? Send him in. I wouldn't specifically bring a Furioso to this fight...but he might make a nice clean up crew after you wear them down with massed anti-tank fire.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Dreads don't do well versus Draigostar. It's kind of crazy.

 

G :)

[Brother Landrain]

Just Make Draigo Run away...

 

5 Casts of Fear of Darkness, at -2 Ld... odds are they will run.

 

Hammers, very unusual to see more than 1 in 5, most seem to prefer the Halberds instead.

 

Also unusual to see Draigo & Librarian in same unit, usually see them in seperate squads so that both can get multiple Hammerhand casts...

 

GK Libby can only cast Might of Titan, and Quicksilver on the GK turn, so those Halberds cannot even glance a libby dread without 3x Hammerhand, and the Init 10 is not every round.

 

Also, the Odds of a single Paladin with a Str8 Hammer doing more 'wounds' than a Str10 Furioso Dread w/ Force Weapons is less than 50%.

 

 

Yes a Paladin unit with 3+ Hammers a Libby and Draigo is a tough nut to crack, And I would not charge it with my LibbyDread Solo... I would avouid contact, use Heavy Weapons, and cast FoD until they started running away...

 

Now If I could charge it with All three of my Librarian Dreads the same turn. I would do so, and I would also feel pretty darn good about my chances. 12 WS 6 ST 10 attacks with Force Weapons at init 4(5 if I get a FC) and AV 13... 525pts vs ~1000pts of GK.. Especially since it would be impossible for Draigo to BtB more than 1 dread most likely...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run three daemonhammers in my Paladin squad - they are there to take out whatever is left over at I1. I think most of the Draigowing tactics I see advocate keeping the Librarian attached to the Paladins along with Draigo - it's a big part of the reason why the unit is truly a deathstar... It let's you cast up to five psychic powers in one player turn. If you want to beat them in melee then you're going to have to hit them with a lot of units simultaneously. Weight of numbers is your best bet.

 

G :)