What is Chaos?

[Menkeroth]

Exactly. In WH there's no good or bad. Just an eternity of war :P but Chaos really makes its followers much more stronger and even releases from all their weaknesses. Daemonhood is the answer. Not for free, of course, but it's worth such a price.

[*Furyou Miko]

Chaos is... temporary.

 

As a famous student of Natural Philosophy once said...

 

"You can't win. You can't break even. And you can't get out of the game."

 

Or, more expansively... "Heat cannot of itself pass from one body to a hotter body. Heat is work and work is heat.

 

And the whole world is gonna cooooool down. 'cause it can't increase!

 

Then there'll be no more work,

 

and perfect peace!"

[randian]

Why did they try to off the loyalists? Because they were wronged/betrayed and the loyalists stood in their way.

Wronged how? I have neither seen nor heard of any fluff in which somebody actually asks the Emperor what his plans are. It's all third-hand, from that well-known source of truth, a daemon, that the Emperor planned to retire/off the Legions and attempt to ascend to Godhood. The Traitors were all

too willing dupes, who never once questioned what they were told about the Emperor.

 

I find it odd that the Traitor Legions were offended by the Administratum taking over. Shouldn't they be glad to be freed of unworthy duty (paper pushing and government administration) so they can get back to the business of war?

[Brother Ambroz]

Almost every legion felt they were wronged by the emperor. I think there were some that tried to question what they were told and were just silenced before they could ask the correct questions. Besides it is the emperor in the first place that lied and said there were no gods or daemons out there.

 

I don't think they were offended by the administration persay but the annoying things the administration was doing like sending in remembrancers for example.

[Bearingtheword]

I'm a hard working individual, I work at the factory preducing arms and ammo for my lords. I have a family. I am a religous man, I pray regualary to my chosen deity. I am content. Then suddenly, WAR! the planet is under threat. This world of mine is judged by the great enemy to be a military asset, worth taking by force. The invaders will offer no mercy, no understanding for our ways, in fact they have an understanding and they HATE us. I must protect my family, my world, give support to my lords who have looked after and protected me, do my part. My god commands it, My superiors command it, My loyalty commands it! I grab a lasgun and join the defences, fanaticle and with zeal in my belly, WE WILL DEFEND OUR HOME AND BRING GLORY TO OUR GOD!!!

 

The above could be written by an imperial citizen, who worships the emp in his cultural way, lives a life of servitude, giving daily prayers, hearing no answer beyond his local preacher, but is content and will do his part when the forces of choas come to strike out at the imperium.

 

The above could also be written by a worker who lives within the eye on a world owned by (for instance) the black legion. He serves his legion, worships the gods of choas, and is answered by minor gifts, and boons. He will be able to occisonally see minor icons of his gods PHYSICALLY MANIFEST! He will see proof of his gods existance. A imperial space marine force and combined guard regiments attack in order to reduce balck legions resource, he will fight to do his part, with fire in his belly!

 

Aint perspective fun :-)

 

 

 

This could also just as easily be the perspective of a world that has been "newly" re-discovered during the so-called "Great" Crusade.....

 

Yup, Perspective...... ;)

 

 

Does it really truly matter what the Emperors plans were? Because if they are what you seem to think they were then they went right out the window pretty damn fast. He went back into his hidey hole on Terra. Horus and the legions felt that were left holding a bag full of ";) now?" I daresay this may have been the Emperors' plan all along! If he's truly as omnipotent as you "Imperial lackeys", , seem to believe then why didn't he see this coming? Or maybe, just maybe, he did??

 

Ain't speculation fun? :)

 

Either way it's done. And it seems to work out pretty well for us in our little games that we play, now doesn't it?? ;)

 

 

~BtW

 

and yeah it is kinda like vanilla vs. French vanilla!

 

 

 

Almost every legion felt they were wronged by the emperor. I think there were some that tried to question what they were told and were just silenced before they could ask the correct questions. Besides it is the emperor in the first place that lied and said there were no gods or daemons out there.

 

I don't think they were offended by the administration persay but the annoying things the administration was doing like sending in remembrancers for example.

 

 

QFT

 

 

Hell even Saint Roboute saw an opportunity and took it.....but that's a whole other can o' worms.....

 

 

~BtW

[randian]

Does it really truly matter what the Emperors plans were? Because if they are what you seem to think they were then they went right out the window pretty damn fast. He went back into his hidey hole on Terra. Horus and the legions felt that were left holding a bag full of ":) now?"

What bag were they left holding? The Legions were, for the most part, Crusading without the Emperor anyway. It makes no difference to you (a Space Marine) whether the Emperor is on Terra or at war with another Legion, you're still fighting without him. I presume there were other periods when the Emperor was not on Crusade, otherwise he wouldn't have had time to get the Webway Gate to its almost-opened state. What makes this period unique or noteworthy?

 

They're being relieved of menial administrative duties by the Administratum. No bag there.

 

The remembrancers aren't the proverbial bag so much as a potentially restrictive element. Then again, if you don't want them (and by extension the Emperor) knowing what you're doing maybe you shouldn't be doing it. Imperial Marines (unlike their Traitor brethren) still have a moral compass, after all.

 

I cannot fathom the utter illogic required to become angry and resentful of the Emperor in this case.

[Brother Ambroz]

They were crusading without the Emperor physically with them but as most soldiers know, if they've got a leader (they look up to and admire) and that leader is fighting at the front with them (even if not physically), it's quite inspiring. They had that feeling all the way up until Ullanor (spelling?). That's what makes it unique. They felt that when the Emp left, he was leaving them to do all the work and began to resent that. That feeling of resentment built up on its own and was also helped along by other sources (chaos).

 

I'm not sure of the bag which BTW is referring to but the rememberances weren't I agree. They also weren't a restrictive element, the legions didn't really care about remembrancers for the most part except that they were annoyances that got in the way. There were many "Imperial Marines" that also didn't especially like the remembrances as well. In fact actually one "traitor" legion actually was rather accepting to remembrancers (TS).

[TheDarkApostle]

Does it really truly matter what the Emperors plans were? Because if they are what you seem to think they were then they went right out the window pretty damn fast. He went back into his hidey hole on Terra. Horus and the legions felt that were left holding a bag full of ":) now?"

What bag were they left holding? The Legions were, for the most part, Crusading without the Emperor anyway. It makes no difference to you (a Space Marine) whether the Emperor is on Terra or at war with another Legion, you're still fighting without him. I presume there were other periods when the Emperor was not on Crusade, otherwise he wouldn't have had time to get the Webway Gate to its almost-opened state. What makes this period unique or noteworthy?

 

They're being relieved of menial administrative duties by the Administratum. No bag there.

 

The remembrancers aren't the proverbial bag so much as a potentially restrictive element. Then again, if you don't want them (and by extension the Emperor) knowing what you're doing maybe you shouldn't be doing it. Imperial Marines (unlike their Traitor brethren) still have a moral compass, after all.

 

I cannot fathom the utter illogic required to become angry and resentful of the Emperor in this case.

Even if the Emperor weren't physically with them, it was still HE and no one else who told them where to go, what to do, and when to do it. All of a sudden he now just vanished, kept secrets from all of them suddenly, and left them with no clue of what to do next. Push on into the unknown? Wait for reinforcements and supplies? Stand still and do nothing while he did whatever it was he was doing? Go beyond the known galaxy to find more pockets of Orks? Go for all-out war with the Eldar which would spell most certain doom for both races?

 

The Administratum was slowing the Crusade down and requested tons and tons of paperwork from the Primarchs meaning the Crusade got slowed down even more and the Legions weren't allowed to do a single things without consulting the Administratum first-hand.

 

Maybe, but the remembrances still proven an obstacle because they wanted the truth and as such needed to be on the front line and as such required additional troops to be attached to them to keep them alive as they aren't combat personel and as such are completely defenseless is things go south. Meaning that valuable forces would have to be pulled from other places leaving the Legions to not be able to operate at maximum capacity. And as such once more, slowing down the Crusade.

 

And there you have it. Having their reasons d'etre taken away from them, aka being the ultimate tool for war but with no war to fight, they were left with a single outlook: They were not fit for police duty, since that was the realm of the Arbites and not what the Astartes were made for anyhow. Almost the entire galaxy was under their control and there was nothing that could oppose them. As such the Astartes weren't really needed anymore. What do you do with something that only takes place and resources and that you don't want anymore? You dismantle or destroy it. The deflecting Legions did not want that to happen to them.

 

End of story.

 

TDA

[Bearingtheword]

TDA hit it on the head... that is precisely what I meant by "the bag" they were left holding..... (Btu he put it so much more eloquently than I could have) :)

 

 

~BtW

[TheDarkApostle]

It seems to be a Word Bearer thing :)

 

TDA

[Brother Ambroz]

(Btu he put it so much more eloquently than I could have) ;)

 

TDA does that alot I've noticed.

[Bearingtheword]

(Btu he put it so much more eloquently than I could have) :lol:

 

TDA does that alot I've noticed.

 

 

Me too, lol :cry:

 

(Must be a Dark aPostle in training.....) ;)

 

 

~BtW

[spafe]

On a slightly unrelated note, Although I realise TDA stands for The Dark Apostle, when he signs off as TDA I always read it as 'Here is my awesome post of well versed reasoning (which I agree with)/Here is my illogical argument for why my word bearery thoughts are so out of whack with the obvs correct iron warriors (when I disagree)' followed by TAA DAA!!. I dont know why but it always makes me smile, imagining it as a word bearer with a top hat and a monacle doing jazz hands 'TAA DAA!'

 

(sorry, this is teh result of illness, combined with forced overtime at work, no offence was meant to any)

 

On topic,

 

but the emp left them doing the work, the iron warriors were constantly given the ardous garrision duties, while other legions got the glory (as ordered by the emp, so says horus), while the word bearers were shot down by the emp himself, who goes onto abadon them and go home. Angorn was wronged by the emp in a douche move to only save him and not his warriors, then when emp goes home, horus can fully subvert. All the while, after horus is warmaster, any bad orders that are going to be resented 'oh they came from the emp, what a git right?' while orders to earn honour, or win accolades 'yo, I totally came up with this plan myself being warmaster and all'

 

Course this is only once the corruption had spread to horus etc

 

Hope my reply makes sense, cheers

[TheDarkApostle]

Thank you, thank you! *bows*

 

After all, are we all not here for the amusement of ourselves and each others? :P

 

TDA

[Dammeron]

For a purportedly all encompassing intelligence (even if he isn't necessarily omniscient), the Emperor demonstrates a bizarre lack of empathy and psychological understanding when it comes to his "sons" (assuming, just for the moment, that the entire betrayal and heresy isn't just another step in some aeon-spanning, machiavellian scheme).

 

One would assume that, being the culmination of all human knowledge and understanding made manifest, the Emperor would have acute psychological insight into the nature of the entities he created, such that he could easily project every possible reaction they would have to a particular situation and respond accordingly.

 

And yet we have situations where he clearly misjudges or misunderstands what his sons require from him both as a leader and as a Father. Some might say that characters such as Horus and Lorgar react with child like petulance to the responsibilities placed upon them, but whose fault is that, ultimately? Who was responsible for their creation, for every aspect of their characters? Even given these apparent flaws in their characters, the Emperor should have been able to pre-determine their actions, adapting his responses accordingly to achieve the most productive result.

 

Instead, we have him making the most crass mistakes. With regards to Angron, if he'd descended with his forces to aid the besieged gladiators instead of leaving them to die, I have no doubt he'd have gained a ferociously loyal attack dog for the rest of his days. If he'd respected the intelligence and curiosity by which Magnus the Red defined his existence and explained his intentions explicitly to the primarch instead of treating him like a tool at best, like an imbecile at worst, then perhaps Magnus would not have felt moved to continue his explorations in secret and a entire, extremely powerful legion would have remained loyal.

 

This is the problem with advertisements of omniscience or of ultimate superiority; they come with certain obligations that are necessary to fulfil in order to maintain themselves, and the Emperor does not, by any standards, fulfil the criteria. If anything, he comes off as weak a parent and leader as many of his sons do as petulant and neurotic. He just happens to have super powers, which ultimately makes the situation one of "might equals right."

[incinerator950]

One forgets that when you turn a human into a weapon, beneath mental conditioning they're just as human.

 

As with the Emperor, This is what happens when you let so much power cloud your judgement. Even if you create something as a tool, if it is a sapient living creature, it needs like the rest of us.

 

Good read TDA, a little Ergo Proxy, and that's what my tastes enjoy for comprehension.

[Schultzhoffen]

Chaos is despair, oppression and slavery. Worlds of the Imperium have this, too, but many are fairly peaceful and free (Ulttramar's planets and others). Chaos offers nothing like this. Read 1984 by Orwell. A Galaxy governed by Chaos would make this seem like paradise.

 

To believe otherwise is believe the lie of Chaos.