Tacticals - Why don't we see more of these guys?

[Lithanial]

There doesn't seem to be much more discussion about Tactical marines beyond "they are ok to camp an objective" when it comes to Blood Angels lists and I can't get my head around why that is. I've been looking at building a Tactical focused list and when compared to other codex the Blood Angels appear to have the strongest available thanks to the support available through Sanguinary Priests and the like.

 

With FC/FNP our Tacticals are more durable and are no slouch in a fight - all we give up is combat tactics but that relies on you losing a combat in order to retreat out of it. With the Blood Angels tools we can aim to win instead making our Tactical marines far more flexible. And yet all anyone seems to take is Assault marines. I can understand the reasons behind this in a mech force where you won't be leaving your transports and so making ASM the cheapest way to spam Razorbacks; but on DOA lists I keep thinking "Why don't you see lists like this with tacticals?"

 

In straight comparison a full tactical squad loses just 7 attacks in a round of combat compared to a full assault squad and has a shorter movement distance. In return you get a heavy weapon and longer ranged firepower allowing you to cause casualties earlier. You still have all the deep strike capability of an assault squad if you take a combi-weapon on the Sarge and a drop pod, but you have the potential to land on turn 1 as opposed to randomly through the game, and said drop pod provides you with cover rather than leaving your marines stranded in the open.

 

Now yes, a tactical squad is not too likely to be charging much with it's short move distance but it can still pack a solid amount of punch as a supporting unit by charging into current combats - all you need is some mobile elements such as bike squads to act as outriders and the Tactical marines can charge in to support the next turn.

 

The only main problem I am having constructing a force out of tacticals is that our Drop Pods only hold 10 men so if you are deep striking teams into place, getting a priest in position to support is problematic. Once I find a solution to that though then I'm confident that Blood Angels can make one of the best Tactical marine focused forces around.

 

Thoughts?

[SamaNagol]

Because for camping objectives a 5 man scout squad with cloaks, rifles and missile launcher is cheaper. As is a 5 man Assault squad in a T/L Lascannon Razorback.

 

And for going forwards the Assault Squad again wins with more attacks and access to more Melta weaponry coupled with cheaper access to transports.

 

Tacticals are in no way useless and if they synergise with your list then by all means go for them.

 

And quite frankly in this iteration of 40k Bolters are just poor. They are far too situationally useful and there are many things that make them effectively redundant like Power Armour or 2+ saves and Feel No Pain. Throwing lots of low AP shots at things doesn't even work for the masters of massed low AP shots, the IG.

[Lithanial]

A 5 man scout squad is also not going to accomplish much. Tacs with Plasma & MM however put out a lot more threat; no arguments with the ASM though but like I said, i'm not trying to refute why you go ASM for mech.

 

On the assault though a tac squad can put out just as much melta (melta & combi on the turn you drop, melta & MM on turn 2) but gain greater firepower for a fairly insignificant drop in assault power. One bolter alone may not accomplish much, 50 however is a different story. There is strength in volume of fire, hence the entire principle of torrent, plus it gives you options. Not everything in 40K comes with power armour and having assault being your only option seems to be a huge liability against certain lists.

 

BA tacs can be exactly that, tactical. Decent in assault, decent at shooting. ASM are only decent in assault, Codex tacs are only decent at shooting.

 

Those 7 attacks you lose on the charge equate to 2.33 wounds vs T4, subsequent rounds are only 1.75 wounds. Really not a large trade off for the flexibility you gain in my eyes.

[SamaNagol]

The 5 man scout squad is a deckchair unit.

 

As I said, I agree there is a place for Tacticals in some lists. But I personally don't use them myself due to their jack of all trades status.

[AbusePuppy]

Tacticals are a static unit in a largely mobile army. The "fast tax" does virtually nothing for them, making them expensive compared to their counterparts in other codices, and they are straight-up worse than ASM at close-in support. They have some limited uses, but they are generally a poor fit for the army style.

[Deschenus Maximus]

The reason is that for almost every task, you have a better option. ASM do offensive scoring far better, sniper Scouts hold objectives better. I think that in truth, there are only 2 semi-viable ways to field Tacs:

1) In a mech list, use a 10-man squad to sit in the back and hold objectives while providing another Razorback to your forward-moving force. This is the "safe" alternative to having Razor ASM squads move back on your objectives on T5. It is also far less potent, however.

2) In a pod list, fulfil the same role as above, while providing an empty pod to help ensure your complete force is able to arrive on T1. I think this is perhaps the only occasion where Tacs provide something truly and tangibly beneficial to a list that cannot better be done ASM (no long range weapon to provide firesupport) or Scouts (no access to pods).

[Brother Landrain]

Actually, in a Pod is the only way I see them practical.

 

10 Man Tac, w/Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Combi-Melta- Drop Pod 220 pts

 

Drop in , combat squad, take out 2 Tanks first turn.. will then provide a distration for the rest of your forces to move up.

 

Any other use, RAS do it better, and cheaper.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Done better with ASM. 10 man, 2 meltas, IP, pod (225) vs your squad (220 pts), able to fire 3 melta shots on landing vs 2 and then fire 3 shots vs 2 every subsequent turn.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The tactical squad is one of the worst troop choices in the game - my opinion. They are costly for what you get and they really don't do all that much other than camp on an objective. The points reduced for an assault squad's transport alone is almost enough reason to never take a tactical squad - you can have a five man squad with a meltagun in a fast transport that has a heavy weapon plus the five man assault squad has just as many if not more attacks in melee. I saw lots of people trying to make tactical squads work but they were often just easy killpoints. BA doesn't have to be all about melee but there are better choices plus less less points.

 

G :lol:

[Brother Landrain]

Done better with ASM. 10 man, 2 meltas, IP, pod (225) vs your squad (220 pts), able to fire 3 melta shots on landing vs 2 and then fire 3 shots vs 2 every subsequent turn.

 

Yeah but the extra range on the MM will help. Either way its basically a suicide melta squad :lol:

 

Not very efficient imo

[Deschenus Maximus]

If you want suicide melta (which won't live past the turn they drop, really), better to go with 3 shots rather than 2, don't you think?

[BA.Rauk]

If I could take a second special weapon instead of the heavy weapon, I'd always take at least one tactical squad as a fire support troop choice. As in though, the heavy weapon is a waste in an army meant to move fast and get in the opponents face.

 

So in short, stick to Honorguard and Stenguard for your close ranged fire support units over the Tactical squad is what I've found to work best if that's what you really want to do. 4 Plasmagun HGs, or 5 combi-plasma Sternguards seem to put a bit of a dent in the enemy- I don't take melta in either because I have plenty of melta from my attack bikes and assault marines.

[appiah4]

How underrated the following Tactical Squad loadout is just boggles my mind:

 

Tactical Squad (10) Combi-Melta, Powerfist, Plasmagun, Multi-Melta, Rhino

[Morticon]

How underrated the following Tactical Squad loadout is just boggles my mind:

 

Tactical Squad (10) Combi-Melta, Powerfist, Plasmagun, Multi-Melta, Rhino

 

I prefer the slightly more expensive:

 

Tac (10) Combi-melta, Melta, Lascannon, Fist, Rhino.

coming in at 270

 

Prefer to always be able to shoot my specials.

 

Theory being a lascannon will ALWAYS have a target, and a melta wont prevent you from charging if need be.

[Demoulius]

Ive run multiple lists with different load outs for tacticals :)

 

Ive tried:

 

10 man, MM, PG, fist. very good all rounder. slog to an objective and if you got a priest nearby very durable ;) good synergy on the weapons as theyre all the same range. Are good medium tank hunters (up to AV 13) and can hurt infantry pretty good as well :)

 

10 man, flamer, lascannon, power weapon sarg, razorback of some kind. combat squad these and stick a priest with the sarg and flamer. depending on where i need them these can be very versatile :)

 

In the past (as in the previous codex) ive ran heavy bolter and plasmagun as well. But they only somewhat worked against horde lists...

 

You can tool them for whatever task you wish, which is the nice part. assault marines areb etter at assaulting and scouts are better at sitting idle at an objective (sniper rifles are free though. usefull a gainst MC''s!)

 

if you dont like your not forced to like them. i like the idea behind them and use them pretty effectivly (if i do say so myself) the priest ensures that theyre no slouches in assaults either and they have weathered thing that i had by all accounts expected them to....well not :P

 

best all round objective takers/holders i can think of :)

[JamesI]

Every time I try to put a Tactical squad into a list, I find I can do the job with a cheaper assault squad in a transport. Unless the job is to sit on an objective and never move, I prefer the assault squad every time.

[Morollan]

I've been using them again in the last couple of weeks and they've done very little throughout the game but have held 2 objectives for me. Solid but boring unit that I only take in certain circumstances.

[Lithanial]

Done better with ASM. 10 man, 2 meltas, IP, pod (225) vs your squad (220 pts), able to fire 3 melta shots on landing vs 2 and then fire 3 shots vs 2 every subsequent turn.

 

Except you would drop in later, be clustered up begging to be templated to death and have no cover. Yes you can mitigate that some with a Librarian but that's more points which skews the comparison. Both have their place, but tacticals seem to get a bad ride for very little tangible reason besides anecdote and a general attitude of people thinking BA to be ASM focused or you should go for a different dex purely for style reasons. To me that smacks of an auto-pilot response rather than a hard truth.

 

So to those of you who have success with tacticals I have a few questions.

 

1, How do you get you usually deploy your priests? With a need for full 10 man squads which fills both Rhino and Drop pod what do you find to be the best method of getting them where needed? This is of course assuming you run full squads rather than combat squads in which case the option gets much easier.

 

2, Can you combat squad to have half a squad in a drop pod and half on the field like you can a Razorback? The rules seem a bit ambiguous here but it would open a fair few options in my mind. (lascannon back field while you drop the melta & combi-melta in their face turn one... ouch)

 

3, Sanguinor as HQ? Nice aura and buffed Sarge to give you even more assault punch without it being overkill or all eggs in one basket.

[Emperors Immortals]

*The following are my own personal opinions, based on local play conditions and an almost obsessive love for BA Tac squads and not intended to be used in tournament environments, which as everyone knows are serious business)

 

 

The BA Tac squad is a very different beast to either the Ultras or Wolves Tac squads ( dont play as BT or DA sorry so no proper ideas there) and must be used as such.

 

I take at least 2 Tac squads every battle over 1500 pts, and the secret to terrific success is simply that they need to back up or be backed up on the field.Supporting units.Never run them alone.

 

As a couple of examples, 2 10 man Tac squads screening 2 combat squaded Assault squads can hold most of the mid field almost indefinatly when a priest is attached and other elements harras the enemy (or just standing safely between teh squads), using the tacs to pump out mass bolter fire and the RAS to either both jump on one approaching unit or preferably to join a combat that the tacs have either recieved or initiated.Replacing the RAS with a LRC is another great block of troops able to support each other and deliver an even more aweome counter-charge (ill run VV or HG most of the time, with my other favourite tactic of a full Can'o'Death Co) - albeit one you will want to use more aggresivly.

 

Alternativly i also have experimented with a DP Tac squad landing in the DZ and being reinforced with a DS termie squad (i usually take just regular, not assault) with attached priest, the priest attaching to the static tac squad and the termies either acting as a distraction or back up as needed.This is a nasty trick to play against IG ive found, simply due to the 2 melta shots from teh tacs and teh amount of power fist attacks from teh termies.

 

Thirdly, running on foot behind the DC is a great delivery system, as they get a FNP shield and can be dropped off at any point on the DC's rampage.

 

 

 

 

So, there are a few ways i have succesfully used my Tacs lately.I know it wont suit everyones gaming circle and theres probably much more efficient combinations and alternatives (especially for tournie play), but i get a real kick out of using these fun combo's on the rare occassion i actually do get out of the house and away from teh kids for a few precious hours.I would like to thank my daughter Lila for inspiring the DC meatshield idea when throwing my prized 3rd ed minis at my Chaos collection.The tacs survived.

[Dropsik]

2, Can you combat squad to have half a squad in a drop pod and half on the field like you can a Razorback?

nope.

 

cheers!

[Brother Landrain]

2, Can you combat squad to have half a squad in a drop pod and half on the field like you can a Razorback?

nope.

 

cheers!

 

but you can combat squad leaving a Drop Pod, and thus fire at two different targets the first turn...

[Dropsik]

but you can combat squad leaving a Drop Pod, and thus fire at two different targets the first turn...

yup, but the question was about 5 man lascannon squad taking up to the field, and rest of the unit deep striking in drop pod.

 

cheers!

[JamesI]

Its too bad that is illegal. It would open up some interesting uses if Tacticals (or Sternguard) could do that.

[Lithanial]

looked up on the FAQ.

 

"Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and

then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other

combat squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but

not in the Drop Pod? (p32)

A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may

not break down into combat squads"

 

Ah well, was a nice idea. Full squads in pods it is! Going to mull over a few things some more and then come out with a dummy list with a tac focus for people to pick apart.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The combat squad rule is by far the most confusing one in 5th edition. I swear they must change teh answer on a daily basis.

 

G :)