Tacticals - Why don't we see more of these guys?

[TheHarrower]

but you can combat squad leaving a Drop Pod, and thus fire at two different targets the first turn...

 

Nope. From the FAQ:

 

Q: If I split a Space Marine squad into two combat squads, can both embark into or be deployed in the same dedicated transport? (p23)

A: No. They are no longer the same unit and a transport vehicle can only carry a single infantry squad.

 

Looks like I got ninja'd.

[JamesI]

but you can combat squad leaving a Drop Pod, and thus fire at two different targets the first turn...

 

Nope. From the FAQ:

 

Q: If I split a Space Marine squad into two combat squads, can both embark into or be deployed in the same dedicated transport? (p23)

A: No. They are no longer the same unit and a transport vehicle can only carry a single infantry squad.

 

Looks like I got ninja'd.

Drop pod rules specifically say you can combat squad after the pod lands.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Except you would drop in later, be clustered up begging to be templated to death and have no cover.

 

Sorry, I didn't make it clear but I meant 10 ASM in a drop pod, equipped as above. Not with jump packs. So you would be firing 3 melta shots at 2 targets every turn, while still being mobile, while the Tacs can only fire 2 shots every turn, half of which requires for the squad to remain static.

 

Both have their place, but tacticals seem to get a bad ride for very little tangible reason besides anecdote and a general attitude of people thinking BA to be ASM focused or you should go for a different dex purely for style reasons. To me that smacks of an auto-pilot response rather than a hard truth.

 

Actually, there are very tangible reasons why Tacs are very rarely the most effective choice. I'm putting the finishing touches on an article I've written for 3++ which covers in depth Tactical Squads. I'll post a link here once it's up. It should provide a pretty thorough explanation of the rather unfortunate position Tacs find themselves in in the BA book.

[Lithanial]

Actually, there are very tangible reasons why Tacs are very rarely the most effective choice. I'm putting the finishing touches on an article I've written for 3++ which covers in depth Tactical Squads. I'll post a link here once it's up. It should provide a pretty thorough explanation of the rather unfortunate position Tacs find themselves in in the BA book.

 

Look forward to reading it, but I think you summarise the attitude nicely by saying "not the most effective choice" - that's kind of the point. They are not a specialist but they can pitch in at everything and do it well, ASM are a more specialised tool. It's a difference in army semantics but marines are able to play as a generalist where armies such as Eldar would suffer.

 

Focusing on one army strategy is all well and good and works just fine until you come up against units that either do it better or counter it - at that point, i'd rather have the options a core of tacs can give to you throughout a game as opposed to maxed out ASM who have no real option except to assault. I guess single tactic gameplay is just more popular with min/max culture.

 

Edit: Just to outline the point further. That tri-melta ASM squad is very singular in purpose. It drops in, slags a tank, maybe two if you are real lucky and then acts as an assault threat afterwards (though if you dropped the packs for a pod it's a highly diminished assault threat range). There is not a huge amount else it is capable of doing.

 

A tactical squad with MM, plasma gun, combi-melta, drop pod and then either plasma pistol or power fist for taste can take on a larger variety of targets and has more deployment options. It can drop either in the opponents face, at a forward objective to hold it or deploy normally and drop the pod empty while still being effective in all deployment choices. It can also pose a threat to tanks, heavy infantry and light infantry on the drop giving it a larger variety of targets. Make the pod a deathwind and there won't be a lot of anything infantry based that would be left standing.

 

Yes in the meta of mech spam, focusing on maximizing your amount of melta can be very worthwhile, but there are numerous other units that can cover that off and not every list is mech - tacticals give you a very flexible multi-purpose core that will always be effective which everything else can work around.

[Drunken Angel]

We take priests, furious charge is half the reason. Moving and jumping 12" or walking 6" which is better tactically?

Jumping 12" also means you can run away 12" no?

[Smendrik]

No, you run 1d6 like everybody else

[Leonaides]

drunkenangel- thats just poor thinking. If you've been able to set it up right a 6" move and a 6" charge is more than sufficient, especially as that can be backed up with furious charge as well. With a tactical squad i can make my enemy try and charge me, and then i can get the charge in first. Its really not that difficult.

[Drunken Angel]

No, you run 1d6 like everybody else

 

It was a tongue in cheek humorous comment. I know how far 'run' is the real point is a jump pack marine can move anywhere from 13 to 18 inches away from where he starts a turn thats a hell of a lot better than 7 to 12 inches in a footslogger.

I see that alone as a huge tactical advantage over footsloggers. But thats just me.

[Son of Rawl]

More dissapointed that the Captain is hardly ever chosen by BA players, then again why would you over a Libby and Chaplain in this codex

[AngelOfDeathXIII]

I don't play against very competitive armies but I usually field one or several Tactical squads supported by at least a Sanguinary Priest. I field them with meltagun, multimelta and a powersword. I use the Assault Marines as their back-up. The tacs exchange fire with their opponents (from cover), with Baal Predators and Devestators adding their firepower to the tacs. The Assault Marines then drop at the opponent side and start hacking at them. The rest of the tacs can then drop with drop pods to aid the Assault Marines (or claim objectives).

 

To be quite honest I have run a similar tactic with Death Company with bolters and while a little bit more expensive it is quite effective as well (perhaps even more as they can fire on the move and thus join the Assault Marines in combat)... But that could also be because of my opponents tactical inadequacy.

[Exonec]

I am not an experienced player, but I've been thinking about a way to use the Tactical Squad. I am quite interested in the "blood hammer" idea with devestators and jump infantery. Therefore, I was thinking that maybe having a Tactical Squad and a 5-10 man Devestator Squad to hang back on objectives. The two possibilites I have been thinking about has been these, for a 1500 points list.

 

10 man devestator squad with 4 ML

10 man Tactical Squad with ML, Plasma Gun and Power Fist.

 

You basicaly get 5 missiles per turn and you have to mow down alot of marines to make them stop.

 

Another way would be to use this set-up

 

10 man devestator squad with 3 ML and 1 LC

10 man tactical squad with LC, Plasma gun and power fist

 

Combat squad as Lascannon & Seargent and 3 ML for the Devestators and Lascannon alone and Seargent & Plasma gun in the Tactical squad. Essentially enabling two lascannon shots at one target and 3 missiles at another. Would this be any good?

 

Moreover, Tactical Squads would be cooler if they could choose "any two" of the special and heavy weapons. Two missile launchers, two flames, two plasma guns, two meltaguns etc. in the same squad. I would like that :D

 

Edit: wireless keyboard is low on batteries making me spell silly

[Deschenus Maximus]

@Exonec: A sniper scout squad with missile launcher and cloaks would fill the role better.

[Lithanial]

The thing with blood hammer is that you know those units are going to be static - you are not after tactical flexibility, you are just after raw firepower. Think this is the real key point coming out of all this with tacticals. If your battle plan is fixed and rigid then there is probably something out there better to suit the job; but if you would rather have a flexible force that can alter its battle plan depending on what you are facing then tactical marines become a godsend.

 

In theory your performance should then come down more to generalship than a rock paper scissors match-up scenario. No matter the list, you can always find something for a tactical squad to do.

 

Anyone had any further thoughts about how best to get a priest up front with some drop pod tacs? Two best options I can think of are a Honour Guard squad in pod, possibly with libby for both priest and character backup to your tacs. The alternative would be Sternguard but since you then can't take a full 10 you lose out on being able to take combat squads, ergo you may as well take less to reduce overkill which just leads me straight back to a "may as well take the honour guard" feeling.

[appiah4]

Anyone had any further thoughts about how best to get a priest up front with some drop pod tacs? Two best options I can think of are a Honour Guard squad in pod, possibly with libby for both priest and character backup to your tacs. The alternative would be Sternguard but since you then can't take a full 10 you lose out on being able to take combat squads, ergo you may as well take less to reduce overkill which just leads me straight back to a "may as well take the honour guard" feeling.

 

My troops are all Tacticals and my Priests are in my 4xPlasmagun honorguards led by Librarians.

[Lithanial]

Ok, penciled out a draft 1000 points template to illustrate the concept with an explanation afterwards.

 

HQ

Librarian [100pts]

 

Honour Guard [170pts]

w/ 2 melta guns

w/ Drop pod

 

Troops

10 Man Tactical Squad [240pts]

w/ Multi-melta, plasma gun, plasma pistol & combi-melta

w/ Drop pod

 

10 Man Tactical Squad [240pts]

w/ Multi-melta, plasma gun, plasma pistol & combi-melta

w/ Drop pod

 

Fast Attack

3 Scout Bikers [110pts]

w/ Locator beacon, melta bombs, cluster mines

 

Landspeeder [70pts]

w/ Multi-melta & heavy flamer

 

Landspeeder [70pts]

w/ Multi-melta & heavy flamer

 

Total [1000pts]

 

You can have 2 pods on the turn 1 drop with a further tac squad to come down later for re-enforcement.

 

Everything in the list packs melta, everything has multiple deployment options and tactical plans. The tac squads are effective either dropping on the enemy or hanging back dropping an empty pod. The bikes can bomb a tank turn 1 or mop up immobilized vehicles while providing a beacon for pods & deep strike - alternatively they can outflank for a later game bombing. The landspeeders can start on board and are mobile enough to push hard or can deep strike in and the honour guard can do a melta drop or hang back if the tacs do while still contributing via FNP and the librarians powers.

 

Could the list be better? probably. would I like to see more bikers in the scout squad? hell yes. Would I like to see more fists about and more equipment on the honour guard? of course! Would I like deathwind launchers? indeed I would!!! :P

 

But at 1000 points it's a fairly bare bones idea that should illustrate the concept well. 1500 I'd flesh out the squads, maybe add an ASM squad in and then start thinking of things like dreadnoughts... who knows, maybe even a deep striking land raider for fun.

[Sokhar]

My question to you is why the hell you'd bother running that list as Blood Angels. Codex Marines can run the same exact formula, and can do it better. Literally the only thing you've done to really take advantage of the BA Codex is trade Combat Tactics for Red Thirst, and in this particular list I don't think that's actually beneficial.

[knife&fork]

My question to you is why the hell you'd bother running that list as Blood Angels. Codex Marines can run the same exact formula, and can do it better. Literally the only thing you've done to really take advantage of the BA Codex is trade Combat Tactics for Red Thirst, and in this particular list I don't think that's actually beneficial.

 

Different librarian, different honor guard. Literally.

[Lithanial]

As said it's the bare template and still very much WIP. The codex advantages shine more at higher points. But essentially:

 

- Different Librarian. Blood lance / Fear of the darkness are both potent tools.

- FNP/FC, sure it doesn't show so much here but at higher points it will

- Probably would switch the scout bikers for normal scouts in a bigger list to free up FA slots and codex scouts can't get a beacon

- Again at higher points you can start bringing in Furiosos, Sanguinor and other unique BA units

 

There are several other things you can do to make it more "Codex BA" but that's just a couple. Remember that is just a bone structure to build on.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@Lithanial: here is the article I mentioned I was writing:

 

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/10/...t-6-troops.html

[Lithanial]

An interesting read but I disagree with it for the most part and feel you miss the point on them. You cover their "this is what they add" as boltguns but it's not; it's their versatility and ability to be a threat at any range against any target type.

 

But versatility vs specialty is always a two sided coin where people fall one side or the other. You like specialization, fine, tacticals don't suit your purpose - but I can't help but feel that you really do sell them short in your article. I also reckon you are over indulging the importance of combat tactics. Combat tactics is only useful if you lose fights, with BA you should be aiming to win which would make combat tactics far less useful.

 

Yes red thirst is kind of pointless unless you take Astorath for some more widespread coverage (half your army fearless... not too bad for tacs, particularly if you combat squad... might have to think on that one some more) but the loss of combat tactics is not all that great when you are gaining feel no pain.

 

You also underestimate their firepower. A tac squad in pod & deathwind launcher is going to melt a good half of a marine squad on the drop with the opponent getting no say in the matter - far more against light infantry. Very little else in the game can do that without giving the opponent reaction time.

 

Anyway, thinking on good tac lists that are more "Blood angels"

 

3-4 pods strikes me as a good number - more than that and you start either going overboard causing overkill or risk being inflexible I reckon. 2 Pods on the drop, 1-2 for re-enforcement.

 

Beyond that i'm thinking of backing up the pods with Stormravens - they are a better delivery system for dreads, bring a lot of firepower and can also re-locate pod squads around the map if needed to give them some later mobility. Thoughts?

 

*runs off to ponder Astorath a little*

[knife&fork]

You also underestimate their firepower. A tac squad in pod & deathwind launcher is going to melt a good half of a marine squad on the drop with the opponent getting no say in the matter - far more against light infantry. Very little else in the game can do that without giving the opponent reaction time.

 

Remember that the pod is not a fast vehicle and thus will not be able to fire on the turn it arrives.

[Lithanial]

Hrm, interesting point. How far DOES a pod count as moving on the drop? hehe, sure it's in an FAQ somewhere.

[Brother Landrain]

All Deepstrike I believe count as cruising speed.

[Deschenus Maximus]

An interesting read but I disagree with it for the most part and feel you miss the point on them. You cover their "this is what they add" as boltguns but it's not; it's their versatility and ability to be a threat at any range against any target type.

 

But versatility vs specialty is always a two sided coin where people fall one side or the other. You like specialization, fine, tacticals don't suit your purpose - but I can't help but feel that you really do sell them short in your article.

 

No, I'm quite found of generalist units actually. However, Tacs are not good generalist units. They are... semi-decent in rapid-fire range of their bolters, suck in assaults and are pretty damned bad used defensively as a gunline-ish unit. That's why I emphasize using a combination of ASM for offense with sniper scouts for defense (Scouts are far from fantastic but they are still a bit better overall in the backfield role).

 

I also reckon you are over indulging the importance of combat tactics. Combat tactics is only useful if you lose fights, with BA you should be aiming to win which would make combat tactics far less useful.

 

Strongly disagree there. Since Tacs do most of their damage with shooting, being able to fall back out of combat gives them (and the rest of your army) the opportunity to rapid-fire the target instead of getting mauled in CC over several turns. The fact that they are in a BA army doesn't change the fact that Tacs are bad in CC and would rather be out of it than in it.

 

Yes red thirst is kind of pointless unless you take Astorath for some more widespread coverage (half your army fearless... not too bad for tacs, particularly if you combat squad... might have to think on that one some more) but the loss of combat tactics is not all that great when you are gaining feel no pain.

 

FnP is nice, but when you operate on foot to take advantage of it, you're setting yourself up to be assaulted by things that you won't be able to handle. On top of that, Red Thirst can leave you in situations where your Fearless units aren't able to break away from things they cannot realisticaly kill. That's another reason why Combat Tactics is way better for Tacs than RT.

 

You also underestimate their firepower. A tac squad in pod & deathwind launcher is going to melt a good half of a marine squad on the drop with the opponent getting no say in the matter - far more against light infantry. Very little else in the game can do that without giving the opponent reaction time.

 

As was pointed out, deathwinds can't fire on the turn they drop. Even if they could, what's to stop you from using deathwind pods with ASM? You will trade in some anti-infantry power on the drop for more anti-tank power ( Tac melta + combi vs ASM 2 meltas + infernus) as well as more anti-infantry over the subsequent turns (each Tac fires 2 S4 shots while ASM fire 1 S4 shot followed up with 2 S5 CC attacks with FC).

[Leonaides]

will try and chime in when i get home from work, but for now- you're starting with a preconcieved opinion, and got some of your examples wrong in this thread. You also dont seem to consider the chance that your opponent might not act as you expect- ref scouts being better back-field units, with the number of deep strike or infiltrating units available...