Tacticals - Why don't we see more of these guys?

[Deschenus Maximus]

Eh. I actually started out thinking that Tacs were pretty good, but the more I analysed it, the more it became apparent that they had some really serious issues.

 

Wrong examples? Such as?

 

Combat-squadded Tacs are pretty much just as dead as backfield scouts against any decent DS/infiltrator, so... yeah... Besides, "not act as you expect" is harder than you think in this day of open lists. "Gee, wolf scouts... I wonder if he's going to try to OBEL..."

[Lesek]

Ok, penciled out a draft 1000 points template to illustrate the concept with an explanation afterwards.

 

I'm running a similar list at the moment, but at 1500 points. It does quite well.

 

HQ

 

Librarian

Unleash rage

 

ELITES

 

Furioso

Blood talons

 

Sanguinary Priest

Power weapon

 

TROOPS

 

10 man tactical

Power weapon

Meltagun

Multi-melta

 

10 man tactical

Power weapon

Flamer

Missile launcher

 

10 man tactical

Power weapon

Flamer

Missile launcher

 

FAST ATTACK

 

Tornado

Heavy bolter

Assault cannon

 

Tornado

Heavy flamer

Multi-melta

 

Tornado

Heavy flamer

Multi-melta

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

 

Storm Raven

Lascannons

Heavy bolters

 

Deathstorm drop pod

 

Deathstorm drop pod

 

I find the podding tacticals to be great objective sitters. The trick I've found is to drop them later in the game and increase their survivability that way. The melta squad takes the librarian and priest and goes aggressive in the raven, with three power weapons in the squad and the librarian triggering rage they can get stuck in quite handily. The rest of the support causes havoc and keeps the opponent off balance. Probably worth noting that this is an all deepstriking, null deploy list.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Done better with ASM. 10 man, 2 meltas, IP, pod (225) vs your squad (220 pts), able to fire 3 melta shots on landing vs 2 and then fire 3 shots vs 2 every subsequent turn.

 

Except you would drop in later, be clustered up begging to be templated to death and have no cover. Yes you can mitigate that some with a Librarian but that's more points which skews the comparison. Both have their place, but tacticals seem to get a bad ride for very little tangible reason besides anecdote and a general attitude of people thinking BA to be ASM focused or you should go for a different dex purely for style reasons. To me that smacks of an auto-pilot response rather than a hard truth.

 

You're not reading the post you're replying to. The Assault Squad that DM suggested comes in a Drop Pod.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Except you would drop in later, be clustered up begging to be templated to death and have no cover.

 

Sorry, I didn't make it clear but I meant 10 ASM in a drop pod, equipped as above. Not with jump packs. So you would be firing 3 melta shots at 2 targets every turn, while still being mobile, while the Tacs can only fire 2 shots every turn, half of which requires for the squad to remain static.

 

Oops.

 

:)

[Leonaides]

sorry, say whut now? 1 of those shots doesnt need to be mobile since its got a 24" range, and one of the 3 shots you quote for ras only has a 6" range. The ability to fire 3 shots is pretty meaningless if the target is 7" away- only takes a bad scatter or 1 movement phase to make that ip irrelevant, whereas a mm would need to be killed to stop it being a threat.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Same can be said of the MM: one bad scatter and movement will leave it pretty toothless. The difference is that at least the ASM's melta can move and fire, whereas if the MM has to reposition, it loses another turn of shooting.

 

On top of that, the ASM can charge once it pops a transport with its melta weapons, whereas the Tac's MM combat squad cannot.

[Lithanial]

@ Lesek: How do you find the single storm raven? I'm liking the idea a lot of pods + raven. Drop in, take out the biggest long range AT threats then the raven comes in from reserve with a lot less around to threaten it. Would be good to get some input there.

 

@ Deschenus: Sniper scouts I find can claim and ONLY claim, they rarely kill anything and are complete heavy flamer bait. As for being assaulted by things you can't handle - it happens but with FNP and possible fearless you also have great tarpit potential too, swings and roundabouts. You can always bring other units to support and if we are talking deathstar units or the like here then it isn't as if there is much that would ever be expected to take them on unsupported.

 

Remember, tacs are not all THAT much worse than ASM in combat if you give them a PW or fist. A lot of the punch comes from the sarge so you only lose those 7 basic attacks - and if ASM are considered "decent" why would tacs be "bad"?

 

As for ASM podding firepower comparison vs tacs - you half half the bolter rounds and no way will any ASM user trade their melta guns for plasma. The difference is considerable and the boost to anti-tank firepower is not all that great; either squad should be able to deal with a tank or at the very least stop it moving to then violate it with Kraks the next turn, there is a point where you have "enough" melta in a unit.

 

Further, if you are podding ASM in, you won't be getting the charge unless you have other more mobile units to initiate the combat and you also cannot deploy in mid-field or your backlines while remaining effective.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@ Deschenus: Sniper scouts I find can claim and ONLY claim, they rarely kill anything

 

If that’s true of Scouts, that’s pretty much the same deal with backfield Tac combat squads. In fact, when you run the numbers, sniper Scouts end up ahead vs AV11-12 for suppression as well as for putting wounds on MCs if both the scouts and the tacs have a rocket launcher.

 

and are complete heavy flamer bait.

 

As well as being more resilitent to all other forms of shooting as long as they are in cover (2+ cover save when GtG thanks to cloaks). I’ll take that over being more resilient to Heavy Flamers, which, outside of ballsy deepstrikes, you should be able to avoid anyways.

 

As for being assaulted by things you can't handle - it happens but with FNP and possible fearless you also have great tarpit potential too, swings and roundabouts. You can always bring other units to support and if we are talking deathstar units or the like here then it isn't as if there is much that would ever be expected to take them on unsupported.

 

Like I said elsewhere in the thread, you don’t want them to be tarpits, you want them shooting. That’s why not having Combat Tactics is such a big blow.

 

Remember, tacs are not all THAT much worse than ASM in combat if you give them a PW or fist. A lot of the punch comes from the sarge so you only lose those 7 basic attacks - and if ASM are considered "decent" why would tacs be "bad"?

 

7 S5 I5 attacks less is actually pretty significant. And we’re talking about only one unit here; when you multiply that over 2-3 units, it’s pretty telling.

 

As for ASM podding firepower comparison vs tacs - you half half the bolter rounds and no way will any ASM user trade their melta guns for plasma. The difference is considerable

 

Yep, on the drop the Tacs have the advantage, that’s true. That said, over every subsequent turn, the ASM will put out more infantry-killing power than Tacs by a good margin. As I doubt your opponent’s whole army is going to fall down from 1 turn of shooting, better go with long term damage, don’t you think?

 

and the boost to anti-tank firepower is not all that great; either squad should be able to deal with a tank or at the very least stop it moving to then violate it with Kraks the next turn, there is a point where you have "enough" melta in a unit.

 

That “enough” point is 3 BS4 melta weapons, as that is where you reach close to 100% chance of popping most transports (AV10/11/12). That is important so you can assault the troops that were inside and keep yourself from getting mauled by the enemy guns.

 

Further, if you are podding ASM in, you won't be getting the charge unless you have other more mobile units to initiate the combat

 

That depends a lot on what army you’re facing. Not everyone is going to throw themselves at you.

 

and you also cannot deploy in mid-field or your backlines while remaining effective.

 

No, and that’s where Tacs CAN be useful. They are a good unit to deploy in the back if you want to ensure all your units deploy together on T1 (give them a pod, but don’t deploy them in it). But for forward deployment? ASM all the way.

[Lithanial]

Well again, the whole point of tacs is they don't HAVE to stay back field, they can go anywhere. Sniper scouts can only do one role. Also, not everything is about armour suppression - despite what some net-list tactics may say, there is more to 40k than tanks. And if you really want 2+ go to ground saves in your backfield terrain you can bring a techmarine along and give the option to many more effective units than scouts without being flamer bait.

 

As for not wanting tarpits - as with all things, it depends. They can be situationally useful and if you end up fearless, "no retreat" saves are not all that punishing when you have FNP too. Your real assault damage will come from other units anyway even if you have ASM, to me, tacs count as "good enough" while being more versatile. As ever, mileage does vary but you do write them off far too quickly.

 

Also, if i'm dropping and melting a vehicle, it's going to be a tank not a transport (well, unless you have land raiders or the like). Tanks are higher value and a bigger threat - you don't need to outright kill, just suppress and then you can mop up with the grenades later. Of course a kill is preferable but again, i'd rather the versatility of being able to do any task well rather than just one or two. Transport spam with their units inside can be mopped up later but you take out the biggest firepower first.

[MagicMan]

I wish C:SM has Assault squads with Meltas/Plasmas, but then we probably wouldn't use Tacticals.

 

 

Thats why... :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I wish C:SM has Assault squads with Meltas/Plasmas, but then we probably wouldn't use Tacticals.

 

 

Thats why... :)

 

But remember, they wouldn't be scoring ^_^

 

+++

 

I think Tacs would be decent if they had three bolter shots within RF range and two bolter shots at 24".

They just are not killy enough, and considering they are a mainstay of fluff forces, they shouldn't be a *cringe* choice.

 

Oh well.

[Emperors Immortals]

I wish C:SM has Assault squads with Meltas/Plasmas, but then we probably wouldn't use Tacticals.

 

 

Thats why... ;)

 

But remember, they wouldn't be scoring :P

 

+++

 

I think Tacs would be decent if they had three bolter shots within RF range and two bolter shots at 24".

They just are not killy enough, and considering they are a mainstay of fluff forces, they shouldn't be a *cringe* choice.

 

Oh well.

 

 

QFT.

 

 

While im sure its more competitive to take ASM Backs and min max our way to victory, im still left here saying that despite all teh mathhammer in the world, tacs have proven again and again that they are extremly viable in my gaming world.

 

I usually take 2 with a 10 man RAS and as much armour as i want that day, they will take and hold objectives, survive fire/fist fights and in general be a very handy unit WHEN PAIRED WITH ANOTHER UNIT.

 

2 tac squads with a RAS for counter/charges is a very solid defence/forward position for us to use, its not expensive and can fulfill a variety of missions.

 

That said, this is for my Ultras - replacing combat tactics for a FnP bubble is a no brainer and i can continue to use my tacss successfuly.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Well again, the whole point of tacs is they don't HAVE to stay back field, they can go anywhere. Sniper scouts can only do one role.

 

And I don't deny that, but here's the thing it would seem that I'm failing to get across: in the case of Tacs, it doesn't end up being much of an advantage because they are not good when in the back, they are... passable in rapid fire range and are not even able to assault if they use their bolters. While Scouts and ASM may be more unidimensional, they are at least able to to function competently in their respective roles. So in the end, that little bit of flexibility that you gave up goes a long way towards making your list more potent.

 

Also, not everything is about armour suppression - despite what some net-list tactics may say, there is more to 40k than tanks.

 

And sniper rifles have greater range to engage infantry as well as having the ability to pin them. They are also better at putting wounds on MCs than bolters.

 

And if you really want 2+ go to ground saves in your backfield terrain you can bring a techmarine along and give the option to many more effective units than scouts without being flamer bait.

 

Bringing a terrible unit just to make a bad unit a little more resilient is not a good gameplan. And if you get flamers in your backfield, chances are the game is probably not going too well for you anyways, so its not like the extra flamer resistence of tacs is going to do much to save you.

 

As for not wanting tarpits - as with all things, it depends. They can be situationally useful and if you end up fearless, "no retreat" saves are not all that punishing when you have FNP too.

 

Than in that case, don't you think it would be better to have ASM in that situation too, since they will be more likely to hurt whatever is attacking them thanks to the extra attacks?

 

Your real assault damage will come from other units anyway even if you have ASM,

 

That a pretty big assumption. I'd say that in the majority of lists I play with, ASM are my only assault unit. The rest will be made up of fire support units.

 

to me, tacs count as "good enough" while being more versatile. As ever, mileage does vary but you do write them off far too quickly.

 

I actually gave this quite a bit of thought. I've searched to the best of my abilities ways in which Tacs will be more useful than ASM/Scouts, and in the end, while those ways exist, they are few and far between.

 

Also, if i'm dropping and melting a vehicle, it's going to be a tank not a transport (well, unless you have land raiders or the like). Tanks are higher value and a bigger threat - you don't need to outright kill, just suppress and then you can mop up with the grenades later. Of course a kill is preferable but again, i'd rather the versatility of being able to do any task well rather than just one or two. Transport spam with their units inside can be mopped up later but you take out the biggest firepower first.

 

Regardless of the order in which you deal with transports, you still have to deal with them sooner or later, and 3 meltas remains better than 2 for that.

[Lithanial]

Ok, so scout firepower vs tac firepower at range:

 

Scouts would get 9 sniper shots, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds right? Give or take a fraction for the sarge's BS4.

Tacs get 8 bolter shots, So 5.33 hits, 2.66 wounds. They have a higher BS on the heavy weapon and bring a special too so add a plasma shot to it as well. The only thing scouts have going for them in shooting is pinning and the ability to hurt MC's from afar. Tacs vastly outshoot them once the opponent gets close and their plasma still does a good job vs MC's.

 

Range is no issue since you would deploy the tacs at whatever range is appropriate - you would only deploy back field if you knew the opponent would be coming to you. If you were going to be at standoff ranges of 36" you would use your pod to get closer. Also once your scouts are on the table they are not moving - it's not all that hard to block their LOS to things they want to be shooting at and then they would be totally useless.

 

Right, now, techmarine. He's really not so bad. Sure at first glance you take a look go "no IC status?" and write him off, but think about it. 10 scouts in the back will pay 30 points for camo cloaks; invest those points in a techmarine instead and you get the same effect for every unit within that terrain piece. That makes it just 20 points for a marine in artificer armour with a fist attack that can also patch up your vehicles - not bad.

 

Ok, he's not all that reliable at patching things up and that fist isn't going to be much use on it's own but give him two servitors for a measly 30 points and you now have 3 fist attacks and a 3+ chance to patch stuff up. Stick him in a Stormraven and you have a cheap unit that can blow up tanks in melee straight out of the assault ramps or drop down behind your damaged tanks to patch them up. If he's within a FNP bubble too it's also a fairly durable unit for its cost - you can allocate armour piercing attacks to the servitors and then the tachmarines 2+ with FNP is not going to drop any time soon.

 

Sure it's not like he's the best thing in the dex but it's not a totally unworkable unit.

 

As for flamers in the backfield, MM/HF speeders are quite common so it isn't all that hard. If you had scouts and I had a speeder first thing it's going to do is thank you for the easy kill and make you scrabble to try to get another unit in place to claim the objective you thought was secure. If those were tacs instead, well, a HF will bounce off 3+ with FNP (1/9 chance of a kill per hit).

[knife&fork]

Sure it's not like he's the best thing in the dex but it's not a totally unworkable unit.

 

I wish we could focus more on this.

 

It's been established time and time again that tac squads are not the optimal choice for troops in the BA dex. It would be more interesting if we focused on how to use the sub optimal units in our dex in fun and playable ways, "gimmick" lists if you'd like. If every list and every game consisted of razor spam on a barren tournament table I wouldn't have much fun with this hobby.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Sure it's not like he's the best thing in the dex but it's not a totally unworkable unit.

 

I wish we could focus more on this.

 

It's been established time and time again that tac squads are not the optimal choice for troops in the BA dex. It would be more interesting if we focused on how to use the sub optimal units in our dex in fun and playable ways, "gimmick" lists if you'd like. If every list and every game consisted of razor spam on a barren tournament table I wouldn't have much fun with this hobby.

 

+1000000000000000000

 

 

Snorri

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I used to play a mobile gun line back in 4th edition. Here is how I'd revamp it to bring it in line with 5ed

 

Recluisarch (rides with DC)

Corbulo (rides with assault Marines)

two full tactical squads with meltaguns and combi-meltas|power fist & missile - rhino

9x assault Marine with meltagun, combi-melta & power fist - rhino

10x Death Company Marine with 2x power sword, power fist and infernus pistol - LRC

2x Baal Predator - assault cannon turrets & heavy bolter sponsons

2-3x MMAB

 

Not sure how many points that is but you could take more units if it were say under 1750.

 

G :tu:

[JamesI]

Assault marines can't take Combi-meltas.

[Leonaides]

It's been established time and time again that tac squads are not the optimal choice for troops in the BA dex.

 

Actually, it hasnt. It really hasnt... It has been variously assumed, presumed, fudged with things like RAS get cheaper Razorbacks/RAS get 2 special weapons/Scouts are better backfield shooty units because they're cheaper/etc... If you take those 2 special weapons, RAS suddenly dont get so very many more attacks than a tactical squad, if you put them in a Razorback you've got no movement advantage over a tactical squad. You can take 10 to get 2 special weapons (that you have to pay for) or if you take 10 tacticals you can get 2 upgraded weapons for free. Sure, you might not fire both of them every turn, but can you honestly say that you will absolutely fire both special weapons every turn from that RAS? Because I dont think you would (generic you's above, not you specifically Knife&fork)...

 

In a game environment with units like GK's, where you can teleport shunt 30" in a turn, where DE, IG, BA have flying transports, where any army has things that can DS/outflank/infiltrate, units like the Landspeeder Storm, Ravagers, Trygons, etc... There is no backfield.

 

There is only the mental block and players assuming that they set up one side of the board, the other player sets up on the other and they meet in the middle... Thats WW1 tactics in the middle of Desert Storm.

[Brother Landrain]

Sure it's not like he's the best thing in the dex but it's not a totally unworkable unit.

 

I wish we could focus more on this.

 

It's been established time and time again that tac squads are not the optimal choice for troops in the BA dex. It would be more interesting if we focused on how to use the sub optimal units in our dex in fun and playable ways, "gimmick" lists if you'd like. If every list and every game consisted of razor spam on a barren tournament table I wouldn't have much fun with this hobby.

 

Fun? A Tactical Squad is the antitheseis of Fun.

They are boring and plain.

 

It's not just that Tactical Squads are sub-Optimal. It is almost as if serious work was done to make them as useless as possible.

 

First off, a 5 Man Tactical squad is virtually completely useless.

The inability to have a special or heavy weapon.

The only upgrade possible is on the Sgt.

The only thing that they have is 24" Range with bolters, and ability to Rapid Fire.

Dedicated Transports are too expensive, and they lack any CCW's.

 

With the SM changes to Tactical squads, and the 10 man requirement, they became a bad overall choice, With C:BA and the other options available as troops they became even worse. In my opinion the BA Tactical squad was made specifically to appease C:SM players, so that they can point to at least one squad in the BA Dex and say, well at least we are better than them...

 

The basic Tactical squad needs to be completely rethought in my opinion.

The change from 4th to 5th was an over-reaction to the power of the Las-Plas Tactical squad.

 

Tactical Squads should be the most Flexible squads that Marines field.

While they should not be the best at everything, they should at least be good.

 

To that extent.

 

I think a few simple changes would allow Tactical squads to regain their place as viable units.

 

1) All Tactical Marines should come with Bolter, Bolty Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, F&K Grenades. {CSM and SW already have this.}

 

2) For every 5 Models, a Tactical squad should be able to take one special OR one heavy. {and add the Heavy Flamer, if Soriatas can use one in PA, a Space marine should be able to}

 

3) All models should be allowed to replace Bolter with a Storm Bolter. {Yeah this one always is a sticky point, I guess I am the only one that think Bolters are stupid on Marines, well imo Rapid-Fire weapon rules are stupid anyways...}

 

4) Tactical Squads should be allowed to Combat Squad, and then reserve/deploy seperately.

They are Tactical after all! What do I mean?

A 10 Man Tactical Squad with Drop Pod... allow 5 to Deploy on Table, other 5 to use the Drop Pod.

This change alone would make them pretty viable

 

 

 

 

Assault marines can't take Combi-meltas.

Yep the Sgt has to take an IP instead.

[Lesek]

@ Lesek: How do you find the single storm raven? I'm liking the idea a lot of pods + raven. Drop in, take out the biggest long range AT threats then the raven comes in from reserve with a lot less around to threaten it. Would be good to get some input there.

 

I find that having deepstriking land speeders with multi-meltas takes a lot of pressure off the raven. Giving the enemy a large number and selection of high priority targets gives it the chance to drop it's payload, and once it's dropped the payload it's own perceived threat drops like a stone. In short, aggressive play works well with a single bird.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Ok, so scout firepower vs tac firepower at range:

 

Scouts would get 9 sniper shots, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds right? Give or take a fraction for the sarge's BS4.

Tacs get 8 bolter shots, So 5.33 hits, 2.66 wounds. They have a higher BS on the heavy weapon and bring a special too so add a plasma shot to it as well.

 

Once you factor in Rending hits from the sniper rifles, Scouts will kill 1.712 MEQ in the open to the Tacs' 2. That's less than 15% difference, even with the plasma.

 

The only thing scouts have going for them in shooting is pinning and the ability to hurt MC's from afar.

 

That's already not insignificant, but you also have to add the ability to hurt light armour, which is significant in this age of mechanisation.

 

Tacs vastly outshoot them once the opponent gets close

 

And Scouts vastly outshoot them past 24". Since we're talking about backfield units, which do you think is more important?

 

and their plasma still does a good job vs MC's.

 

Even factoring in the plasma, the Scouts will still cause 33% more wounds on MC within the 12-24" band.

 

Range is no issue since you would deploy the tacs at whatever range is appropriate - you would only deploy back field if you knew the opponent would be coming to you. If you were going to be at standoff ranges of 36" you would use your pod to get closer.

 

Hum, backfield objectives? You just abanding those now?

 

Also once your scouts are on the table they are not moving - it's not all that hard to block their LOS to things they want to be shooting at and then they would be totally useless.

 

Don't be silly now. Short of dropping a DP right in front of their position, they are always going to be able to shoot at something they can hurt. Even then, their feet aren't bolted to the ground, you know. They can still redeploy.

 

Right, now, techmarine. He's really not so bad. Sure at first glance you take a look go "no IC status?" and write him off, but think about it. 10 scouts in the back will pay 30 points for camo cloaks; invest those points in a techmarine instead and you get the same effect for every unit within that terrain piece. That makes it just 20 points for a marine in artificer armour with a fist attack that can also patch up your vehicles - not bad.

 

Ok, he's not all that reliable at patching things up and that fist isn't going to be much use on it's own but give him two servitors for a measly 30 points and you now have 3 fist attacks and a 3+ chance to patch stuff up. Stick him in a Stormraven and you have a cheap unit that can blow up tanks in melee straight out of the assault ramps or drop down behind your damaged tanks to patch them up. If he's within a FNP bubble too it's also a fairly durable unit for its cost - you can allocate armour piercing attacks to the servitors and then the tachmarines 2+ with FNP is not going to drop any time soon.

 

Sure it's not like he's the best thing in the dex but it's not a totally unworkable unit.

 

1) you can only reinforce ruins. No ruins in your backfield? SOL 2) Scouts get their +1 cover save regardless of where they deploy. Tacs would be limited to deploying in one sole ruin if they want to have an increased cover save 3)20 pts for an easy Kill Point for your opponent that has to steal someone else's ride and will only fix a damage result 1/3 of the time and eats up into your precious Elites slots. No thanks. 4) if you try to bust tanks up in conjuntion with the Raven, you may suceed if your opponent doesn't take measures to prevent it, but the next turn the techy and his cronies are deadmeat. 5) they are a myriad of more useful things you could be carrying in a SR aside from your techmarine unit. 6) you won't be in FnP range if you use your unit offensively. Unless you attach a Priest to that unit, which would be even more clownshoes. 7) causing 3 AP2 wounds on a unit is not exactly difficult anyways. 8) It is pretty much unworkable. That's why you never ever see anyone using them.

 

As for flamers in the backfield, MM/HF speeders are quite common so it isn't all that hard. If you had scouts and I had a speeder first thing it's going to do is thank you for the easy kill and make you scrabble to try to get another unit in place to claim the objective you thought was secure. If those were tacs instead, well, a HF will bounce off 3+ with FNP (1/9 chance of a kill per hit).

 

We don't play with hidden lists anymore. If I see that you have a MMHF speeder in your list, I'm going to take measures to stop you from BBQing my scouts in one go. When properly deployed, they most you'll be able to get is 3 out of 5. You only need 1 alive to score the objective. That's beside the point that I'm going to have another 5 scouts that can secure the objective anyways.

 

But before we even have to consider that, how are you going to get your Speeder in the back? Flat out move on T1? I'll shoot it down before it has a chance to fire. Deep Strike? If you do a ballsy deepstrike, in all likelyhood you will either scatter off target or even Mishap. If you do a safe deep strike, again I'll just shoot it down. Or I could simply bubble-wrap my scouts which would force you to deal with the other units around before even having a chance to flame the scouts.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@Landraind: I agree with your suggestions aside from the SB idea.

[Lithanial]

Ok, been spending a while working out a 1850 fully fleshed out list. Surprisingly the concept builds well at 1250, 1500 & 1750 points too as I was tweaking it up in size but this size certainly makes it more "Blood Angels".

 

HQ

Captain [150pts]

w/ Thunder hammer & storm shield

 

Honour Guard [170pts]

w/ Blood champion & sanguinary priest

w/ Drop pod

 

Elites

Furioso Dreadnought [140pts]

w/ Magna-grapple

 

10 Man Sternguard Squad [310pts]

w/ 2 Meltaguns & 3 combi-meltas

w/ Drop pod

 

Troops

10 Man Tactical Squad [240pts]

w/ Multi-melta, plasma gun, plasma pistol & combi-melta

w/ Drop pod

 

10 Man Tactical Squad [240pts]

w/ Multi-melta, plasma gun, plasma pistol & combi-melta

w/ Drop pod

 

10 Man Assault Squad [245pts]

w/ 2 Melta guns, infernus pistol, power weapon & melta-bombs.

 

Fast Attack

5 Man Scout Bike Squad [140pts]

w/ Locator beacon & melta-bombs

 

Heavy Support

Stormraven Gunship [215pts]

w/ Extra armour

 

[Total 1850pts]

 

Component 1: Scout bikers, Sternguard & Command Squad - bikers can melta bomb a tank while the sternguard can melta two. Command squad provides FNP and an assault threat - could have added melta to them too for a 4th damaged/dead tank on the drop but 4 might not be in range and being the only priest I don't want the squad being such a high priority "shoot me now".

 

Component 2: Storm Raven & Furioso. Armoured support in one tidy package - with component 1 making a nice impact on turn 1 the anti-tank threat present against this force should be drastically reduced giving them greater field dominance.

 

Component 3: Tacs & ASM - Our scoring units, drop in to re-enforce and claim objectives as needed

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There are a huge amount of variations to this concept too - don't like the Captain? Straight swap to a Epistiolary. 2 MM/HF speeders is a straight swap for the Furioso, or should you wish to brave it without a locator beacon you can swap out the Scout bikers. Fancy some deathwind launchers on your first two pods? Load a tac squad into the Raven and lose the melta bombs on the ASM to save yourself 40 points.

 

You've got a priest for FNP, 2 Signature BA vehicles and some scoring ASM - yet at its core is a good solid core of boltguns. It would be nice to squeeze a few things such as those deathwinds onto a couple of pods and the hurricane bolters onto the Stormraven for more volume firepower but the total concept looks pretty solid.

[Demoulius]

a list i run (cant recall the full options i took) was basicly 2 mounted tac squads with plasmaguns (no heavies) in rhinos. 2 baals and a vindi. my liby was jumping around with my single assault squad providing his 5+ cover save bubble and i just zoomed around blowing up everything in the face.

 

doesent sound very blood angel-esque you say? I beg to differ. This is the way the blood angels fought on armageddon if im not mistaken :ermm: (well that and doing full out charges on the orks if any of that failed :lol: )