A D-B in The primarchs

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Also, I think one of the most interesting facets in the "terror tactics" debate is even in the lore sources that claim they do it, like the IA article, there are almost no examples of how they do it - and none that would actually work against most of the armies in the lore. That's a key point in how it doesn't translate into actual realistic portrayals with any grace.

Again, the Dark King has a great example of how "terror tactics" were used by the Night Lords and why. I can only guess that most people have not gotten a chance to hear it, sad. In the story there is also a example that shows that Astartes can know fear.

[Pulse]

I don't know why i get into discussions with A D-B, as much as i love your books the conversations normally end up with you practically saying "well the majority of my feedback is good so i couldn't really care less what the minority thinks" or "my 40k doesn't fit with yours so thats why you don't like it".

 

Also as far as the Night Lords subject goes it seems to be basically this, according to A D-B anyway;

 

The Night Lords had little or no character to begin with since all they did was murder and cause mass panic on a large scale, now they are fragmented and roam the galaxy in small warbands, they are even less characterful. Oh yeh and about their tactics..... there is no "official" way they fought and authors won't use their imagination and come up with something that actually fits the Night Lords, because ... well it isn't needed.

 

Also, as A D-B said, their entire "capture com channels and scare the enemy" stuff only really works when they assault an Imperial planet.

Funnily enough a small team can take over a countries communication systems in todays world, why couldn't a small force do the same on a planet wide scale in the future? With the right equipment and skill it can be done.

 

Also you do not need to scare the enemy wholesale, if you are attacking a certain area you can tap into the communications over the area, which would then allow the Night Lords to get to work.

 

Again, the Dark King has a great example of how "terror tactics" were used by the Night Lords and why. I can only guess that most people have not gotten a chance to hear it, sad. In the story there is also a example that shows that Astartes can know fear.

Yep.

[A D-B]

I don't know why i get into discussions with A D-B, as much as i love your books the conversations normally end up with you practically saying "well the majority of my feedback is good so i couldn't really care less what the minority thinks" or "my 40k doesn't fit with yours so thats why you don't like it".

 

Also as far as the Night Lords subject goes it seems to be basically this, according to A D-B anyway;

 

The Night Lords had little or no character to begin with since all they did was murder and cause mass panic on a large scale, now they are fragmented and roam the galaxy in small warbands, they are even less characterful. Oh yeh and about their tactics..... there is no "official" way they fought and authors won't use their imagination and come up with something that actually fits the Night Lords, because ... well it isn't needed.

 

You're being deliberately obtuse. Remember, you're just saying your opinion. I'm under no holy vow to suddenly consider it the truth, especially when I don't see it aligning with my perspectives, or the evidence of the lore, or my discussions with other people involved with the IP, or of 99.9% of other opinions I see.

 

People see things differently. That's all there is to it. You don't like X, and infer Y. More power to you, man. No need to get snippy about it.

[A D-B]

Also, as A D-B said, their entire "capture com channels and scare the enemy" stuff only really works when they assault an Imperial planet.

Funnily enough a small team can take over a countries communication systems in todays world, why couldn't a small force do the same on a planet wide scale in the future? With the right equipment and skill it can be done.

 

Also you do not need to scare the enemy wholesale, if you are attacking a certain area you can tap into the communications over a small area, thus allowing the Night Lords to get to work on their bloody task.

 

They do. That's exactly the kind of thing they do. Blood Reaver even specifically has them doing that kind of thing. Often, dude, you get lost in hyperbole. To make a point, you exaggerate it. You're even citing a flaw in my work by ignoring the fact the book even has the very plus point you say you want to see. Blood Reaver has exactly the kind of attack the Night Lords want to do, step by step, according to the lore with a bit more brutality thrown in for kicks. Void Stalker will have another.

[Pulse]

I don't see it aligning with my perspectives, or the evidence of the lore,

 

People see things differently. That's all there is to it. You don't like X, and infer Y. More power to you, man. No need to get snippy about it.

Evidence of the lore? Hmmm.... theres me thinking that the BL novels were there to expand the lore... No? Because so far that is what has seemed to have happened in most of them.

 

I am not getting snippy about it but when i see you say something more or less along the lines of "well the majority of my feedback is good so i couldn't really care less what the minority thinks" it gets a tad annoying, especially when the questions raised are legitimate.

 

They do. That's exactly the kind of thing they do. Blood Reaver even specifically has them doing that kind of thing. Often, dude, you get lost in hyperbole. To make a point, you exaggerate it. You're even citing a flaw in my work by ignoring the fact the book even has the very plus point you say you want to see. Blood Reaver has exactly the kind of attack the Night Lords want to do, step by step, according to the lore with a bit more brutality thrown in for kicks. Void Stalker will have another.

I am naturally inconsistant, what can i say?

 

Yes in Blood Reaver they did attack how they wanted to but why not expand it? Make it gruesome and shocking, that is what i mean when i say character. The Night Lords are supposed to be from one of the most depraved worlds within the fledgling Imperium, the folk there raised on murder and violence. Make the crimes they commit actually sound like the Night Lords doing it.

[jah-joshua]

hey A-D-B...

 

long time listener, first time caller, here...

i love that you interact with your fans on the forums...

even if it does just devolve into a circular argument with people who are loath to put their opinions aside, and just enjoy your hard work...

 

i thought that the attack on the space station in Blood Reaver was great, and a well written example of infiltration and "terror tactics"...

those people knew they were screwed, yet had no idea how or why...

result!

 

i also think that your depiction of Cruze, in this context, was successful as you made me hate the guy for being such a washed up, useless, self-hating maniac...

we all know he was a merciless fighter back in the day, and to see him so lost in self-loathing really makes the reader want to slap the hell out of him:)...

again, result!

 

i see these debates on the forums all the time, about any subject under the gaming sun...

there is always something for someone to be dissatisfied about...

in my opinion, i'm just happy that these worlds, and minis, exist for us to enjoy...

 

to me, the BL books are just pulp fiction...

they are something to sit back and enjoy after a hard day in the real world, like movies (but we all know how the debates rage over the imagined minutae of things like the Star Wars or Star Trek universes)...

my day usually starts with a cup of coffee, and a browse around the forums, before i jump in the ocean and surf waves that can give you a good pounding, or take your life, at any moment...

then i spend a few hours at my surf shop, convincing people that they want to give me their hard earned cash to ride my expensive boards...

when i get home and relax a bit before i start my evening job of painting people's minis, i enjoy a mellow read about imaginary people getting a good kicking, while my cuts bleed and my bruises throb after a day of ten foot surf...

 

since i make my living as a painter of Marines, the books about them inspire me to sit down and paint for four hours a night...

as my marines sell for hundreds of dollar each, i am expected to deliver the best quality possible and bring the fluff to life, just as you are...

i have to deal with a lot of the same kind of criticisms as you, and it all boils down to a matter of personal opinion...

you (and i) know what worked well and what didn't...

which bits were a success, and which one's where a learning experience...

not to mention the harsh reality of deadlines...

 

long story short, living the dream is great, but it does come with the occasional boatload of stress (a bit of "be careful what you wish for")...

there is a lot of long, hard, thought that goes into the work, but the readers only see the end result, not the journey it took to get there...

they don't see the tough choices, the unhappy compromises, or the great ideas that are murdered by the editor's mighty red pen...

 

i love your work, and hope you have a long career with the BL...

i think that you should answer all the haters with this great line, "Of course I'm right. It's what I do best."

 

cheers

jah

[Legatus]

Also, as A D-B said, their entire "capture com channels and scare the enemy" stuff only really works when they assault an Imperial planet.

Funnily enough a small team can take over a countries communication systems in todays world, why couldn't a small force do the same on a planet wide scale in the future?

That's what I said they would do. But they can only really do that to Imperial planets. And Tau planets. And against no one else.

[Arkangilos]

Even in Soul Hunter they used fear tactics several times.

 

 

Against the Rogue Trader they were unsettling quiet, and then when the silent is unbearable, they scream death to emperor.

Then, against the Imperial Fleet, they ran the defensive line of the fleet, strait past the ships, and hit the two most important ships. On the most important one, the squad of armsmen defending the bridge were forced to listen to, "Our shells aren't working! Need more powerful weapons! They aren't going down!" Can you imagine how scared you would really be in that situation?

 

 

Personally, I think that the Night Lords have a lot of character now. I actually grew to like them.

[Captain Semper]

Dropping from the ceiling and leaving a few bodies scattered around the Marines Errant fortress doesn't count as terror tactics.

 

It does. It's just small scale and not directed towards the primary enemy who is largely immune to fear (of this nature anyway).

 

The problem with the NL of 40k is that they are effectively Ronin - masterless knights. The loyal Chapters are pursuing the Emperor's cause (as they individually understand it) while other Chaos Legions serve the Chaos Gods (colectively or one in particular). Black Legion has Abaddon - so they are not masterless, and Iron Warriors at least they have their Primarch - although not sure how often (or indeed how) he interacts with his Legion... Actually Iron Warriors could be in the same boat as NLs.

 

My point is that the entire viewpoint of ADBs novels is bottom up rather than top down. It's not how the others see the Legion operate (hence the terror effect), but how the troopers themselves see the Legion operate. And since they are masterless, they lack purpose. In order to employ sophisticated tactics they need a big picture plan. And there is none. Even Talos' aspiration to restore the Legion to its former glory is pointless because then what? To me this is a story of a search of purpose and identity. The 1st Claw itself is an amalgamation of different visions as to their purpose. Some are cynic, Uzas is becoming chaotic, their leader got possesed and no one in particular shares Talos' vision for the future. But whenever they fight their cruelty is integrated to their standard prctice - as if terror is not a calculated tactic but a matter of course. I kind of like that.

 

So with such unresolved issues the employment of tactics (terror or otherwise) by what is effectively a warband that could not occupy a city let alone a planet is redundant and small scale by definition.

 

What would be interesting though would be an HH novel about the NL and how they conduct such a terror campaign - led by Curze no less!

[Valkyrion]

The point of all the BL non HH novels is, I presume, to add some colour to the 40k background.

The protaganists in Iron Warrior, the Ultramarines, the Word Bearers, the SOul Drinkers, the BLood Angels...they are all different. Who else in the 40k stories so far has been as terrorist-y as the Night Lords? No one.

All lore requirements have been met by ADB - if you don't like the books then fair enough, but they do tick all the fluff boxes.

 

Until an author comes along and writes about a different chapter that out terrors the Night Lords there isn't really much solidity to an argument that says the NL aren't terrible enough. They aren't terrible enough compared to what?

So far, the Night Lords are the most terrible ever. They were when they were invented and they still are now.

 

It might not be to all of our personal fluff tastes, but within the context of the lore it fits.

[Darkchild130]

I think a major problem that is worth noting (in a 40k context anyway) is that "terror tactics" are no longer unique to the Night Lords. Cutting off comms, filling every vox channel with screams, butchering civilians, deliberately preying on weak targets, sabotaging infrastructure, daemons, infiltration and murder blah blah blah.

 

All the Chaos Marines do it now.

Its part of their core strategy, since they're the "Bad guys".

Night Lords have lost their what defines them as a combat unit and are considerably weaker for it.

Now they're just sneaky batman guys, hanging around in rafters and striking from shadows. I'm happy with that.

 

Though I think a short story about a 30k NL battlegroup systematically taking apart a non compliant world would satisfy a lot of people.

 

Darkchild

[Brother Nihm]

Very much. Thankfully, the overwhelming majority of feedback on every level is in favour of it, so like I said: I get you see it X way, but I don't, and I'm okay with that. People see the license in different ways.

I'm an analyst, I like to think that I view the license in more ways than just one. I do however prefer to deal with facts, even contradicting facts as is the case with GW's lore.

 

Also, I think one of the most interesting facets in the "terror tactics" debate is even in the lore sources that claim they do it, like the IA article, there are almost no examples of how they do it

Granted, there's a few, not many, but a few - harkening back to 2nd ed.

 

and none that would actually work against most of the armies in the lore.

That is when the other aspects of the Legion comes into play, namely the use of overwhelming force and 'the end justifies the means' mentality, ensuring that no one or nothing will ever think to cross 'blades' with them again. Sadly (as has been mentioned) this is more or less a general Astartes thing now.

 

That's a key point in how it doesn't translate into actual realistic portrayals with any grace. Sometimes, like in the beginning of Blood Reaver - or in LotN on a tiny scale of one guy - it's easy enough to show in terms of their vaunted "overwhelming force" tactic. I think Blood Reaver even specifically uses several/all of the tactics mentioned in the IA article, as a point of highlighting it when it works. But otherwise, well, it's pretty clear why there are so few examples in the lore, or on the tabletop. It's an ideal, not something they'd be able to do in most of their difficult battles.

Again, I think that it is possible.

 

Still, it was a lot easier to inspire fear when that was the point of your Legion in terms of achieving a goal not based on then killing everyone right afterwards. When they existed to inspire fear in order to further a greater goal, you've got the reason the Night Lords in the Heresy were so unique. When later lore sources categorically say they've lost a lot of that drive and now cause fear out of a desire just to cause fear - before killing their enemies anyway - then... Well... You see where I'm going with this.

and that is the sole reason that LotN can be re-read today. The conflicting views within a Legion that was fathered by a shattered Primarch.

 

But you can say that about countless examples in the license.

Thunderwolf Cavalry makes perfect sense! well, no. :D

 

Addendum, as I do really like this topic. I don't think it makes much sense to say the character of the Legion's not coming across

If I can take entire chapters from a book (I've tried) and then substitute the names for something entirely different (say Word Bearers), and it feels the same. Then the character of the Legion isn't coming across very well. imho. There was so much potential in Shadow Knight that I wish had been realized in Soul Hunter.

 

especially with the atmosphere of the Covenant of Blood

I am not sure what you mean exactly. Please elaborate.

 

and the conflicting views on the past and their primarch; and the fact that the serious issue is that several of them like to cause fear, there's just little chance to do so in real terms) - or even in the sense that it's even harder when the galaxy doesn't know who you are, even when you show up and wave at mortals. They're still like "...um? Why are you skinning me alive, stranger?"

That is because Talos and Co don't care about the Long War; a crucial turning point in the whole series that I hope will be picked up and handled beautifully in Void Stalker, but until now has only worked against them appearing like anything but 'mere' Renegades.

 

I had all these talks about it with IP folks before I started Void Stalker, because I really, really, really wanted Talos and co. to attack a planet "like the old days" and really cut loose. Void Stalker's about 80% done now, and the assault in question is close to the start of the book. It's a world they have a lot of investment in, and aren't pleased to see what's become of it since they were last there. So they slip the leash.

That sounds ace.

 

But even then, there's a powerful difference between inflicting fear essentially for the fun of it, which we're told in the lore they now do almost exclusively, and doing it as part of a battle tactic when you're trying not to kill everyone, such as back in the HH and Great Crusade. Back then, the idea was to scare them but leave most of them alive, with the lesson of obedience learned. Now it's often just to make them frightened as they die (way less pathos)

I agree, who would want to read about genetically enhanced killing machines who went around murdering helpless humans, farm animals + infants?

 

and the vast majority of enemies that can actually challenge the Night Lords simply don't feel fear.

Physical enemies and touching upon tabletop rules slightly, then yes. But there are more enemies/conflicts than that.

 

Perhaps "Terror Tactics" is not the right word for it. The Night Lords don't sneak around and attempt to scare an opposing force once the battle has started. They throw their full might behind the attack to utterly anihilate the opponent. The entire demoralization/confusion process happens before any fighting takes place. All the terror stuff serves basically just to establish how terrible the Night Lords are and what they will do to you when they get you. But once the battle has started they will basically boltgun or chainsword the opposition to death, much like any other Marine force would. The survivors of such an engagement are in for worse, though, as they might then serve as material to prepare for the next engagement.

This is pretty close to what I tried to explain earlier, except this is far better worded. :cuss

 

For this reason I have always been against a simple morale effecting special rule for Night Lords. That makes sense against Imperial Guard and Tau, and Perhaps Craftworld Eldar, but it wouldn't make sense against any of the other armies.

I respectfully disagree, I've always wanted to see one such rule. But I wouldn't want it to be the ONLY or defining thing that the Legion had in its arsenal.

 

hey A-D-B...

 

long time listener, first time caller, here...

i love that you interact with your fans on the forums...

even if it does just devolve into a circular argument with people who are loath to put their opinions aside, and just enjoy your hard work...

The people in this thread do enjoy the books, otherwise we wouldn't read them! ;)

 

i thought that the attack on the space station in Blood Reaver was great, and a well written example of infiltration and "terror tactics"...

those people knew they were screwed, yet had no idea how or why...

result!

I quite like that 'scene' as well.

 

i love your work, and hope you have a long career with the BL...

+1

 

i think that you should answer all the haters with this great line, "Of course I'm right. It's what I do best."

"I love criticism just so long as it is unqualified praise."

 

The point of all the BL non HH novels is, I presume, to add some colour to the 40k background.

The protaganists in Iron Warrior, the Ultramarines, the Word Bearers, the SOul Drinkers, the BLood Angels...they are all different. Who else in the 40k stories so far has been as terrorist-y as the Night Lords? No one.

All lore requirements have been met by ADB

No, they haven't. Which is kind of the point of my posts.

 

- if you don't like the books then fair enough, but they do tick all the fluff boxes.

I'd rather not create a list of tick-boxes so without having to delve to deeply into "what is Night Lord" (perfect idea for a different topic!), then again, no. They haven't been ticked.

Until an author comes along and writes about a different chapter that out terrors the Night Lords there isn't really much solidity to an argument that says the NL aren't terrible enough. They aren't terrible enough compared to what?

That isn't the main argument for me. All Astartes are terror weapons in a sense.

 

So far, the Night Lords are the most terrible ever. They were when they were invented and they still are now.

Yet this is not seen in the novels.

 

I think a major problem that is worth noting (in a 40k context anyway) is that "terror tactics" are no longer unique to the Night Lords. Cutting off comms, filling every vox channel with screams, butchering civilians, deliberately preying on weak targets, sabotaging infrastructure, daemons, infiltration and murder blah blah blah.

 

All the Chaos Marines do it now.

Its part of their core strategy, since they're the "Bad guys".

Night Lords have lost their what defines them as a combat unit and are considerably weaker for it.

Now they're just sneaky batman guys, hanging around in rafters and striking from shadows.

Just as the entire taking slaves thing was property of the Emperor's Children, now it belongs to the Dark Eldar.

 

Though I think a short story about a 30k NL battlegroup systematically taking apart a non compliant world would satisfy a lot of people.

I for one would love to read it, provided it was handled well.

[Billuriye]

I don't think other legions are as inventive, perceptive and passionate when it comes to instilling fear as Night Lords. Or shouldn't be.

[chaplain belisarius]

interesting stuff! in my opinion, the best representation of terror tactics was the story in the old chaos codex from 2nd edition. A frontier world, with militia and a small amount of guard being picked on by the night lords. If someone could expand on that idea then that would sum them up perfectly in my opinion. (maybe write a lot of it from the poor, doomed imperial guardsmans point of view to add to the terror?)

 

off topic-I just got the first heretic. It is fantastic! where do i sign up to the ADB fan club?

[A D-B]

The point of all the BL non HH novels is, I presume, to add some colour to the 40k background.

The protaganists in Iron Warrior, the Ultramarines, the Word Bearers, the SOul Drinkers, the BLood Angels...they are all different. Who else in the 40k stories so far has been as terrorist-y as the Night Lords? No one.

All lore requirements have been met by ADB

No, they haven't. Which is kind of the point of my posts.

 

This has long grown massively circular. Some people say it's in there, and provide examples. Others say it's not. There's nothing to say beyond reiterating posts, and then we'll all just be quoting ourselves again and again. While I like to chew this stuff over, when it takes this long and eats up most of my forum time per day, I tend to need to bow out. It's useless, and there's no ground given either way.

 

I think the stuff is there, and I've provided examples. A lot of people think it's there, and even in this thread, some of them have provided examples. My editors and the IP folks think it's there. That collective overwhelming majority is good enough for me, to the point that arguing against 2 or 3 voices online serves nothing. "You can't please everyone all of the time, just try to please most people most of the time." An author's axiom uttered by a squillion professionals. It's not wrong of me to say "That's good enough for me". It's how an artist functions, because if they didn't say and think that, they'd never be able to work. People's views are always different, and you literally can't please everyone. If you try, you'll get nothing done because you'll be second-guessing everything, and you'll still be wrong when the final piece is finished anyway.

 

I'm going to ask that the stupid insults of "ADB only likes to hear praise" be dropped, though. That's not only patently false given my history on the board and the effort I put into detailed feedback, it's also childish and sort of pointless - easy soundbites to score points, but with no validity. If I had issues with criticism, I'd not be on these boards, just like every other BL novelist or design studio writer. The only criticism I tend to ignore (and even then, only after detailed discussions like these) is criticism that seems invalid in the face of massive conflicting opinion and solid evidence to the contrary. Just saying an opinion doesn't earn the right to have it taken seriously if other people don't see it as valid, and the evidence stacks up against it.

 

I struggle to see anyone reading this thread from an unbiased and/or informed perspective, and see me as the one being unreasonable or lacking in the provision of evidence to back up my perspective. Anything else I'd say would be a restatement of my posts, or aspects of Legatus's, or Telanicus's, or Captain Semper's, and so on.

[Gunslinger87]

The point of all the BL non HH novels is, I presume, to add some colour to the 40k background.

The protaganists in Iron Warrior, the Ultramarines, the Word Bearers, the SOul Drinkers, the BLood Angels...they are all different. Who else in the 40k stories so far has been as terrorist-y as the Night Lords? No one.

All lore requirements have been met by ADB

No, they haven't. Which is kind of the point of my posts.

 

I struggle to see anyone reading this thread from an unbiased and/or informed perspective, and see me as the one being unreasonable or lacking in the provision of evidence to back up my perspective. Anything else I'd say would be a restatement of my posts, or aspects of Legatus's, or Telanicus's, or Captain Semper's, and so on.

 

Don't worry, you're not the only one who is shaking their head when looking at this topic :-) conflicts of opinions inevitably degenerate into insults by those that lack the capacity to argue their point clearly. Just ignore it and don't let it spoil your forum-going experience. After all there is nothing you can say to such a person that will make any impact, so why waste time trying to find a clever way of doing so. Just watch an Atheist - Religious debate and you will know what I mean. After a while you must just go: "why do we even bother?" when neither side (and I'm saying this to try and be impartial :-D ) ever concedes anything despite overwhelming evidence, or great reasoning... at the end, you're still at the same point you started. (obviously these guys do so to try and convince others, but in your case... why respond to someone who just sees it in such a way that even if provided with evidence to the contrary (or of specifically what he asked for) just continues repeating himself stubbornly?)

 

Something to consider. The hardest thing to do isn't admitting one is wrong... first you have to admit to the possibility that you may not be completely right. The next step is actually quite easy.

 

I don't see a lack of the former in A D-B. (which would be what the poster said... not willing to admit he may be wrong and therefore only likes positive feedback) So if you could argue substantially on a particular topic, you may be surprised to get an admission. But dont expect one in this one... it wouldn't make sense.

[Lucifer216]

Personally, I always imagined such approach to warfare working against marines by enraging them sufficiently to run into traps or lose tactical sense in response to atrocities such as the defilement/mutilation of their dead or wastage of their geneseed.

 

Despite what a lot of 40K and other sci-fi/fantasy fiction suggests, losing your temper in a fight or battle is a good way to end up dead.

[Darkchild130]

Personally, I always imagined such approach to warfare working against marines by enraging them sufficiently to run into traps or lose tactical sense in response to atrocities such as the defilement/mutilation of their dead or wastage of their geneseed.

 

think your wandering into Alpha Legion territory there.

 

Darkchild

[Doghouse]

I'm going to ask that the stupid insults of "ADB only likes to hear praise" be dropped, though. That's not only patently false given my history on the board and the effort I put into detailed feedback, it's also childish and sort of pointless - easy soundbites to score points, but with no validity. If I had issues with criticism, I'd not be on these boards, just like every other BL novelist or design studio writer. The only criticism I tend to ignore (and even then, only after detailed discussions like these) is criticism that seems invalid in the face of massive conflicting opinion and solid evidence to the contrary. Just saying an opinion doesn't earn the right to have it taken seriously if other people don't see it as valid, and the evidence stacks up against it.

 

I agree with that. I've always read your posts as being open minded and you've always responded to criticism very well in my opinion. I've found your posts a very useful insight into how things work behind the curtains of BL novels and the HH discussions that are involved.

 

In regards to the Night Lords I'd love to see an emphasis on the return to the days of overwhelming force.

[Lucifer216]

There's no reason why there can't be some overlap. And besides it isn't really that Alpha Legionish. After all, their signature tactics seem to be attacking from as many fronts as possible, combined with the use of sabotage, excellent intelligence gathering and the sowing of carefully crafted misinformation.

 

I think you might be getting the whole "making loyalist marines lose their rag" thing from the Index Astrates, which described a fight against the Ultramarines, their most bitter rivals. I still love how people miss the point that the entire description of Alpharius' death can't be trusted, given that the author is heavily suggested to be an Alpha Legion spy.

[Lucifer216]

The problem with the overwhelming force as a plot in a novel is surely...

 

A) Where is the dramatic tension if they're obviously going to win

 

and

 

:D Surely the readers' sympathies would shift towards the defenders, detracting from the Night Lords' role as protagonists.

 

I think ABD did an excellent job of showcasing the Night Lords going to war in Throne of Lies and neatly sidestepping both these problems...

[Darkchild130]

There's no reason why there can't be some overlap. And besides it isn't really that Alpha Legionish. After all, their signature tactics seem to be attacking from as many fronts as possible, combined with the use of sabotage, excellent intelligence gathering and the sowing of carefully crafted misinformation.

 

I think you might be getting the whole "making loyalist marines lose their rag" thing from the Index Astrates, which described a fight against the Ultramarines, their most bitter rivals. I still love how people miss the point that the entire description of Alpharius' death can't be trusted, given that the author is heavily suggested to be an Alpha Legion spy.

 

No, i'm getting it from the fact that Alpha Legion are masters of assymetrical warfare, and enraging Imperial Marines to the point of committing mistakes is about the most effective tactic I can think of in terms of compromising Imperial fighting ability.

 

It is a very Alpha Legion-like thing to do to cause atrocities or defile geneseed. If they think it will work.

 

But yeah your right, there can be overlap (lots in fact). The wonderful world of tactics is organic and ever evolving.

 

Darkchild

[Bewlay]

In regards to the Night Lords I'd love to see an emphasis on the return to the days of overwhelming force.

 

TBH I think this is what sums up the discussion, I like AD-B works but I'm not a fan of his portrayal of the NL, its viable but my NL have taken the opposite route. Now people on here are complaining that the NL that AD-B portrays aren't an accurate representation of the NL that they think of, but how can they be? I'm not understanding why people are complaining that AD-B NL aren't the perfect representation of the NL they think of.

 

Guys it three books about a small amount of NL, calm down :D

[Lorenzen]

personally i think adb has done an awesome job portraying the night lords and when i got a friend to read soul hunter and blood reaver, he found himself wanting to do a night lord army (despite being quite adamantly anti space marine)

 

all the snippets of the night haunter (We've essentially had none of curze) have been ace, i especially liked his cameo in the first heretic.. when you make corax fly away going "eeeeeeeee" you know your one scary dude.

[Billuriye]

all the snippets of the night haunter (We've essentially had none of curze) have been ace, i especially liked his cameo in the first heretic.. when you make corax fly away going "eeeeeeeee" you know your one scary dude.

 

Well, Corax fled the scene not because he was afraid of Curze. There were no indication of fear. Putting yourself in 1 vs 2 situation while your sons are butchered like cattle is not sound.