Dealing with GK in assault

[jb7090]

Hello everyone,

 

My local gaming scene has several GK players and I'm really having some issues dealing with them in close combat, specifically their almost universal ability to strike at I6 with Nemesis force weapons and insta kill most of our IC's. I had been thinking about using fenrisian wolves to act as wound soakers but the FAQ put an end to that. I was also contemplating using Arjac or Lukas because they arent IC's and cant be targeted specifically.

 

Any advice on this?

[Wulfebane]

Ideally, you don't assault them in close combat at all, but instead form a gunline. Whether you take the charge while rapid firing, and go for the counter-assault, or assault them and deny them the additional attack is usually a circumstantial preference.

 

Outside of breaking your IC from the unit prior to it inevitably being assaulted (thus keeping your IC from assaulting that unit at all - atleast until all or most of the I6 halberds are dead), your only chance for keeping your special character from getting focused is by using Arjac or Lukas instead.

 

Also, you could focus your IC + GH/BC pack at a squad that is light on halberds, while keeping the halberd-heavy squad at a distant (if the circumstances allow for this scenario). Even with a couple halberds, they might get a few wounds, but unlikely kill the IC.

[jb7090]

Thanks Wulfebane,

 

It kinda flies in the face of most of the strategy people have been posting about how GK's "die like marines" and are "a 24 inch army, just assault them" but I really have the best luck when I shoot em with plasma/ melta.

[Nrthstar]

This has of course come up a lot here, and i can't remember who, but someone mathhammered out that we should be able to win a gk assault and it made me want bang my head against a wall since the reality is i've never seen it actually happen. After the initial rush of counts as in my area most people went back to their original armies thankfully, but my friend has figures out the right balance. It's risky but he usually only runs 2 of the i6 weapons since that isually breaks a squad enough to ensure he won't take enough return attacks from any other marine army.

 

I've tried the rapid fire/counterassault option. It will work if you have more than one squad there shooting at them. If not, their return shots before charging you will be your death. Also if you know their bringing cleansing flame, that's bad news bears to let them charge.

[jb7090]

Thats exactly how Ive seen it played out, Nrthstar.

 

Destroy a GK transport with LF's or whatever, 6-10 guys fall out(depending on points level of the game). Roll up in a Rhino or Las/Plasback and jump out with 6-10 guys in RF range. Kill 2-4 from plasma/melta. Next turn eat a charge from 5-8 guys swinging 2-3 times at I6 or I5 with no armor save and youre going to lose like 4 guys before you can even swing back with your pfist. Next round of combat sees that squad dead and the GK's down to maybe half strength.

 

Im still new to the game so Im struggling with setting up charges from troops, especially when transports are involved so if you have any advice Id love to hear it!

[breng77]

From the sound of it you are fighting Purifiers in the assault, in which case yes you lose. Against Strike Squads you stand a decent chance (and if they are paying to be I6 then they are far more expensive, and point for point you are probably still winning.)

[MalachiOfRuss]

When fighting GK it's all the more important that you have Rune Priests around to shut down their powers on that 4+. Keep them in their Rhino or Razorback as long as you possibly can, and just have them kind of "hang pack" but nearby the fight. GK are far less scary when 50% of their psychic powers fail.

 

On the "do I charge or double-tap and counter-assault" question, here's some quick math-hammer for you: when shooting bolters against Marine stat models, 10% of the shots you take will result in a kill (on average). Now take that 10% and total up the number of attacks those models would contribute to the cc, if that number is less than the total number of models in the squad, then charge - since denying them their +1A in charge is a greater advantage to you than taking the shots. (Still shoot your pistols of course) Caveat: All of this is assuming that the assault is inevitable. If you're standing in some big piece of terrain or something and there's a chance that if you back up 6" and shoot that they will fail the assault, then by all means do so.

 

Detailed math hammer:

With a bolter, a Grey Hunter will hit 66% of the time, wound 50% of those (against marine stats), and the defending marine will fail 33% of those. So that's 0.66 * 0.5 * 0.33 = 0.1089 or about 11% (but 10% is an easy "in your head" number to calculate). So, say you've got a 10-man GH squad, with 9 bolters and a meltagun. You'll be taking 18 shots if you rapid fire the bolters, and probably kill 1.8 enemies. Say you're lucky and call it 2, and we'll even say that the meltagun hits and kills one more. If those are Purifiers those 3 models would have contributed 9 attacks on the charge. If you're facing a 9-man squad, I would say charge.

[jb7090]

In that same vein I ran a little mathhammer here at work. Now please dont take this as complaining or whining or anything negative. Just looking for input :P

 

Also please take these with a little grain of salt, I round in the direction thats least favorable for me because I roll terrible haha.

 

Lets say I do the double tap.

 

I move my rhino with 8 gh's(1 with plasma), 1 wg with combi plasma and pfist and rune priest into position and disembark covering the exits of a GK rhino. My LF's shoot and wreck the rhino and 9gk's + 1 bro champion pop out and pass their tests/ take no wounds. I double tap 7 bolters, 2 plasma and 1 living lightning(avg 3 shots) into them = 4 dead.

 

Opponents turn. 4 gk's with storm bolters, 1 gk with psy cannon + bro champ's storm bolter(with psy bolt ammo) shoots into my squad killing 2. 5 gk's + bro champ charge, I pass my counter attack roll and get 3 attacks. GK player casts hammerhand and I fail to stop it. At initiative 6, 2 halberds kill 1 gw, initiative 5 the bro champ is in base with 4 guys so gets 4 attacks(rerolling hits and wounds) and kills 3 more. At initiative 4 3 Gk's swing and 3 sw swing back. Gk's kill 3(rerolling hits) Sw kill 1. At initiative 1 my lone pfist swings back and kills 1 gk. End result 4 GK(including bro champ) alive vs 1 wg still standing.

 

GK points cost, not including the rhino, 450 points. SW point cost, not including rhino but including the rune priest and wg, 273 points.

 

If I actually have a squad ready to charge them instead of double tapping them when they get out of the rhino, its actually a lot worse. End of the 1st round of combat is like 8gk still alive vs 4 sw.

 

So you can see there, it's actually more efficient to double tap them(I use plasma a lot), but if you only brought melta guns Im sure that number would go way down. Maybe leave the rune priest in the rhino and use MH on the gk squad and hope they cant charge into range?

[breng77]

First, how is his Bro Champ in BtB with 4 guys? That would require you to put extra guys in Btb with him.

 

Second your squad is nearly half the cost, so why not throw another squad in there at least to shoot.

[G. A. K.]

I believe MalachiOfRuss is right and you need to get rune preist(s) around to stop all those psy powers. other than that you just need to shoot while you can and take advantage of the fact that they are outnumbered by you. its hard but I've played a few gk players and apart from paladins and termie troops I have had little trouble in tearing apart thier squads in assault. Although i did loose many a noble marine in the process, it is not too hard. mark of the wulfen puts out a lot of attacks and isn't targetable and the standard helps too of course.

 

G

[MalachiOfRuss]

Don't get your squad out of the rhino unless you're confident they aren't going to be wiped out in assault. Otherwise, stay mobile shoot and move. If you are in your Rhino in the assault phase, even if they are in range, the worst they can do is explode the Rhino (causing damage to themselves in the process). Your guys pile out (or are left in a smoking crater) to then shoot some more, and possibly assault them instead.

 

Also, Murderous Hurricane is awesome. Not for its damage potential, but for its ability to slow down enemy mobility, not to mention them having to take those Dangerous Terrain tests. I use it all the time when playing my Tyranid friend, and although it's not as crippling for GK since they all have grenades (even the Termies... ugh) the same principle holds true: when facing an opponent that is superior in assault limit their mobility and stay away. Use sacrificial (empty) rhinos and razorbacks to block easy movement lanes. Force him into terrain whenever possible. Don't be afraid to retreat and give ground. Space Wolves are aggressive but they aren't stupid, they know when to stay away from a superior foe.

 

Further, keep your Rune Priests out of harms way. Preferably in a rhino, behind some other rhinos. They are much too valuable to you as a support unit for throwing out Murderous Hurricane or Jaws of the World Wolf (the 2 powers I would recommend against GK), and for providing that psychic power "nullification zone."

[thor1234]

as ive been away 'training' with Grey Knights I feel it is my honour to divulge information gathered while battling with them.......

the lists running about at the moment will either have the paladins/ terminators legging it at you with I6 they have no storm shields (unless Draigo is with the unit) Meltas and plasmas work a treat although they have 2+ saves 5 Ml hitting them in the face will ID one maybe two, the key is to shrink already small or over expensive squads before they hit your lines, Interceptors and Strikers will not most likley have halberds due to points costs so if they charge you your GH will still have more attacks if its purifiers yes they are scary in close combat but reduce their numbers saying that, normally players use Purifiers for cheap weapons platforms so will be taking halberds off first then the 4 psycannons, when they have no halberds charge em and beat em over the heads with their own guns! for an amry that kills meq in combat most players use the 24" range to its potential.........

 

to sum up shoot em melta em plasma em and then beat whats left with their own entrails.......

 

good luck!

[jb7090]

Thanks for all the tips so far. I did have one question though..

 

"On the "do I charge or double-tap and counter-assault" question, here's some quick math-hammer for you: when shooting bolters against Marine stat models, 10% of the shots you take will result in a kill (on average). Now take that 10% and total up the number of attacks those models would contribute to the cc, if that number is less than the total number of models in the squad, then charge - since denying them their +1A in charge is a greater advantage to you than taking the shots."

 

Im not sure im reading you right. So, for simplicity's sake, if I am facing 5 GK strike squad at 11 inches with 5 GH I could shoot 10 times(with bolters) killing 1. That one model would get 2 attacks on the charge, so by your logic I should shoot pistols and charge?

[Grey Mage]

Hello everyone,

 

My local gaming scene has several GK players and I'm really having some issues dealing with them in close combat, specifically their almost universal ability to strike at I6 with Nemesis force weapons and insta kill most of our IC's. I had been thinking about using fenrisian wolves to act as wound soakers but the FAQ put an end to that. I was also contemplating using Arjac or Lukas because they arent IC's and cant be targeted specifically.

 

Any advice on this?

Drop the other ICs ifyour not willing to take a Lord with saga of the bear, and just snag yourself a cheap and overtly useful Rune Priest.

 

Buff him up with Tempests Wrath to discourage deep-striking, and living lightning for light armor hunting. Hes not a beast in close combat- but hes not there to be, your not paying for it, so stop worrying. Instead hell do something useful- keep them from getting in close to shank you while you use our superior firepower to pummel the ever living hell out of them.

 

Im not sure im reading you right. So, for simplicity's sake, if I am facing 5 GK strike squad at 11 inches with 5 GH I could shoot 10 times(with bolters) killing 1. That one model would get 2 attacks on the charge, so by your logic I should shoot pistols and charge?

Yes- because it will deny them the extra attacks while giving you basicly 5 attacks at I 11.

[MalachiOfRuss]

Im not sure im reading you right. So, for simplicity's sake, if I am facing 5 GK strike squad at 11 inches with 5 GH I could shoot 10 times(with bolters) killing 1. That one model would get 2 attacks on the charge, so by your logic I should shoot pistols and charge?

Bingo. It is more advantageous to you in the coming Assault (assuming the assault is inevitable) to deny him the +1A per model charge bonus than to get the extra shots. It seems counter-intuitive, but often times its better for you to assault a scary assault unit to deny them a charge bonus (and guarantee yours).

[Stormbrow II]

Bingo. It is more advantageous to you in the coming Assault (assuming the assault is inevitable) to deny him the +1A per model charge bonus than to get the extra shots. It seems counter-intuitive, but often times its better for you to assault a scary assault unit to deny them a charge bonus (and guarantee yours).

Not really.

'You shoot the assaulty ones and assault the shooty ones.'

 

You shoot Purifiers and assault the Strike Squads. I've had a number of games where Scouts have chewed through a similar-sized Strike squad simply because my Scouts have far more attacks and aren't worried about Hammerhand or Power weapons. 5 Strikes have 6 Attacks when charged and if there's a Psycannon in there they've lost a Power Weapon swing to boot.

 

6 attacks - 3 hits - 1.5 wounds (2 with Hammerhand) means 2 dead plebs. That get to fight back.

15 attacks - 7 hits - 4 wounds is 1.5 dead so one or two. This is before the Wolf Guard is included and he'll typically get 1-2 kills with either Wolf Claw or Fist.

 

The above assumes that the GKSS all have Power Weapons so no armour saves are granted but the number of dead Space Wolves drops when you factor in a Psycannon. The numbers change again if you include a Daemonhammer in the GKSS unit as reduces the number of Power Weapon attacks and he might even fall over to the torrent of incoming attacks before he swings.

 

It's not set in stone by any means but it is a useful guide to remembering the above adage.

 

EDIT: Strike Squads aren't scary in combat so I'm trying to correct that here. Otherwise I agree with completely with what was said.

[MaleOpener]

Hello everyone,

 

My local gaming scene has several GK players and I'm really having some issues dealing with them in close combat, specifically their almost universal ability to strike at I6 with Nemesis force weapons and insta kill most of our IC's. I had been thinking about using fenrisian wolves to act as wound soakers but the FAQ put an end to that. I was also contemplating using Arjac or Lukas because they arent IC's and cant be targeted specifically.

 

Any advice on this?

 

 

If you're going to assault a squad of GK, or any squad for that matter, the ideal tactic would be to assault with 2 or more squads/packs.

 

Otherwise, you want to shoot-them-up from a distance. Either to soften them up before an assault, or to remove the squad from the game.