Codex Chaotica

[chaos minion]

I've been playing Chaos SM for a long time and want a different challenge...but I don't like the SM models. I am gonna use my Black Legion as my renegade "Space Marine" army.

 

My question is...Do a lot of people have heart burn when someone uses another codex's rules?

 

My idea was to make a Drop Pod army and convert a lot of different different models to fill out the army (I.e. thunderfire cannon, Bloodraven, and others). I also will be converting a Chaos Lord into a Lysander to fit with the drop pod/deepstrike theme. Reading through the Dorian Heresy got my mind going wild with fluff and different conversion ideas...and probably paint them in the Imperial Fist colors too.

[the jeske]

counts as is fully accepted by GW in 5th ed. As long as stuff is WYSIWYG you can make any army look anyway you want it to.

[darknightdrako]

Also it makes much more sense that they would get the current equiptment as the post heresy chapters. Esp if they are a marine chapter that joined the Black Legion.

[Legatus]

My question is...Do a lot of people have heart burn when someone uses another codex's rules?

A lot of people don't. And a lot of people do. Chaos Space Marines have different rules than loyal Space Marines (no ATSKNW, additional CCWs, higher Ld, etc.) so technically you would be proxying. A lot of people do not have a problem with someone proxying a force from one army list with the models of another army list. But I think a lot of people will also expect that you will eventually get proper models if you want to keep playing that army. Or that you will go back fielding the army according to the army list that is intended for it, once you have had enough of a change for a while.

[the jeske]

bull :cuss . counts as is a fully supported mechanic by GW . It is not proxing . If someone makes and orc army with IG rules , its fully legal not a proxy. AL using scouts and khan/shriek ? fully legal. 1ksons as GK with psycanons being modeled as psychic powers . legal etc . Proxing is when you use a model of different size and/or a non legal model[other company] and/or when you dont follow WYSIWYG [and that can be followed even by using same colored stones ] .

 

Oddly enough I have never seen a dude in US or euro zone who would end up with a bad dex and had problems with using counts as . It is only those who had dex with tons of options for builds that "oppose" it [even when GW fully supports it]. No idea why , they do that.

[Legatus]

bull :cuss . counts as is a fully supported mechanic by GW . It is not proxing . If someone makes and orc army with IG rules , its fully legal not a proxy.

"Proxy" doesn't mean "against the rules". It means you are using different rules for your models than the ones they are officially associated with.

 

 

Proxing is when you use a model of different size and/or a non legal model[other company] and/or when you dont follow WYSIWYG [and that can be followed even by using same colored stones ] .

Proxying is also when rules are associated with specific models (or even a colour scheme) but you are using different models with those rules, or you use those specific models with other rules.

 

E.g. Fielding Blood Angels models, but not using the Blood Angels rules would be proxying. Fielding non-Blood Angels* but using the Blood Angels rules would be proxying.

 

*Specifically Marines that are recognisable as not being a Blood Angels Successor Chapter. Known or DIY Blood Angels Successors are of course also associated with the Blood Angels rules.

 

 

Every time a player would associate certain rules with certain models, but the proper rules are not used with the proper models, that's proxying. E.g. Blood Angels are associated with the rules from the Codex Blood Angels. Chaos Space Marines are associated with the rules from Codex Chaos Space Marines.

[Saa]

'Supported by GW' and 'acceptable by your gaming community' are often very different things in my experience.

 

Proxying armies and using other codecis for your existing army is hugely frowned upon amongst my peers. With the only exception of "hey guys I'm considering starting X army, mind if I dummy up a list before committing a shed load of cash to it?" (something I personally did before starting my UM project).

 

Ultimatley it's your call. Can you live with the shame of playing a chaos force with C:SM rules and will your group mock you incessantly for it? If you can answer positively to both of those questions then I say fill your boots. It's your army.

 

Saa

[Lord_Caerolion]

So what's Counts As then, Legatus? Hell, technically even converted models are proxies, by that definition.

[darknightdrako]

In the end do what ever makes you happy because its your hobby, so play the rules you like with the models you love. :(

[Lady_Canoness]

It is a sad state of affairs since I think the Chaos Marines have a lot more bite than a loyalist book.

 

As for the 'counts-as' and 'proxies' debate, I think it can be summed up like this:

 

A proxie is a model that stands in for another model without attempting to represent said model, i.e. a tactical marine could be a proxie for a Dark Eldar Kabalite, while an assault marine could proxie for a hellion. The models stand in, but do not accurately reflect the rules. An empty base is also a proxie.

 

A counts-as model is any model other than the GW standard model that 'accurately'(this being the linch-pin) represents a certain minature. A home-made Khârn that wields an axe that fits the description of Gore-Child, a plasma pistol, and looks like a maddened maniac in power armour is an accurate portrayal of Khârn and therefore a proper 'counts-as' - a model with Terminator armour and a hammer would not be. My rule of thumb is that the 'count-as' model must look more like the model it is intending to represent than what it originally was. For example, a 'counts-as' Chaos Marine made from Tactical Marine parts must look more like a Chaos Marine than a Tactical Marine: the check being that someone would look at the count-as model and say 'that is a chaos marine'. A guard player who uses necron models for his guard would be using proxies - not counts-as. Likewise, a space marine player using space marines as necrons would be proxying.

 

As a Chaos player using a Loyalist book, I would say that you have the unenviable task of having to make your models look more like the units they are representing (i.e. Loyalists) than the models they actually are in order to fall into the counts-as (assault cannons must me assault cannons, for example, or something that cannot be mistaken as another weapon.)

Otherwise you'd be proxying in my books.

[Legatus]

So what's Counts As then, Legatus? Hell, technically even converted models are proxies, by that definition.

If your converted model is not recognisable as a Chaos Marine, and you want to use it as a Chaos Marine, then that can be seen as proxying. If it is recogniseable, then it is an appropriate model, and not proxying.

 

'WYSIWYG', 'proxying' and 'counts-as' all basically refer to the same principle: Using the right or wrong models for your army. WYSIWYG is commonly associated with weapons in particular (even though the term has a much broader meaning. A player can "see" a Blood Angels Tactical Marine, but if the opposing player uses a different Codex, that's not what he is getting.) 'Counts-as' as described in Tournament guides mostly refers to using outdated models or models that have no rules representation (like Space Crusade Dreadnoughts, or Space Crusade Tactical Marines with assault cannons) and applying some of the official rules to them (e.g. Space Crusade Dreadnought = Chaos Dreadnought, Tactical assault cannon = heavy bolter), although it is also sometimes used to use a model type you do not wish to use in your army and use the models to represent a different unit. 'Proxying' simply refers to using models other than the official and expected ones. This could be for a single model or unit, but could even apply to the entire army (whereas 'counts-as' is intended for specific instances where the army list would not cover a few models you want to use). A blatant example of proxying would be to use lego minies for your Space Marines, but another example would be to use Chaos Space Marine models for a Space Wolves army.

 

 

Edit: Lady_Canoness: An interresting definition. However, the Tournament rules often give 'counts-as' examples where a certain weapon type or model type is used to stand in for other weapons or units, as long as that replacement is consistent. E.g. if you want a heavy bolter to count as a laser cannon, then all heavy bolters in your army now must count as laser cannons.

 

 

I would classify the three terms like this:

 

Proxy: Broad term. Using models other than the officially intended ones. (Scratch built models that are recogniseable as models of the official faction are permissible.)

 

Count-as: Using a particular model type with different rules. Specifically used to allow the use of outdated models or models that would otherwise have no rule representation.

 

WYSIWYG: Refers to the opponent's ability to recognise what models are being used against him. Slight violation of WYSIWYG: The opponent does not recognise what a model is supposed to represent (e.g. Space Crusade Dreadnought). Serious violation of WYSIWYG: The opponent would assume that the model has different rules than the one you are using (e.g. using Orks as IG Veterans, or using Chaos Space Marines as Blood Angels or Space Wolves).

[theOutcasts]

Loyalist book for renegades is an interesting idea. I read this post and realized its just the angle I have been looking for.

Now I can custom my space marine models, use the same codex, but call them renegades. I was going to build a chaos marine army, but found that my favorite options are redundant with Codex space marines and I am not a demon lover or a worshiper of the dark gods.

 

Enter the Outcasts. Fallen Angels exiled from their original chapters, but refusing to embrace the Chaos legions and their dark gods.

 

Thanks for the inspiration.

[Vincent Black Shadow]

I am strongly in the camp of allowing players to play the game however they want to play it. If anyone raises beef about it outside of a tournament setting, they should lighten up. It's a game and should be played for fun. If someone wants to use a peanut as their monopoly piece, are you going to tell them that they can't play? Do you refuse to let a kid play catcher in a pickup game of baseball if he doesn't have a catcher's mitt? Of course not.

 

What it all hinges upon, according to the rulebook, is that anything and everything goes as long as both players agree to it. If you can't find someone to agree to let you play a different army list with your models, then you need new gaming friends. But ask the people you usually play with before buying a bunch of models, just to be sure.

 

Of course, in a tournament setting I would have a different opinion, but that's not what we're talking about here, right?

[darknightdrako]

Here you go: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/...p?aId=16800105a

 

Even a GW is fine using count as. As long as you buy their models and rules I'm sure they dont mind one bit. :)

[Lord_Caerolion]

So what's Counts As then, Legatus? Hell, technically even converted models are proxies, by that definition.

If your converted model is not recognisable as a Chaos Marine, and you want to use it as a Chaos Marine, then that can be seen as proxying. If it is recogniseable, then it is an appropriate model, and not proxying.

 

What does a Chaos Marine look like though? After all, the Astral Claws were Chaos Marines, and even now they're not completely mutated and chaotic. What does a Loyalist look like? The Soul Drinkers believe they're loyalists, and fight for the Emperor, yet they're mutated to hell. Can I not have pelt-wearing Codex-adherents? After all, are they closer to White Scars or Space Wolves in appearance, so which codex am I looking like? What about crusading, knightly Imperial Fist successor? Are they simply proxied Black Templar models painted the wrong colour? What about "Chaos" Marines who don't worship Chaos? Am I proxying just because I don't have tentacles coming off every model? What's the visual difference between a Blood Angel successor and an Ultramarine successor?

 

There are so many Marine books that the lines between their appearances are completely blurred. To even try and pretend there are distinct guidlines of hard-and-fast rules of what each should look like is absurd, as even GW itself promotes creativity and customisation. Why the hell do you think all Marine parts are interchangeable? Marines are already at such a state of universality in appearance that expecting to be able to tell what's what with a quick glance is foolish.

[the jeske]

even spikes arent chaos sm . what was that loyalist chapter that had those assault sm with fully functional bone blades growing out of their hands ?

[Liba terminatus]

even spikes arent chaos sm . what was that loyalist chapter that had those assault sm with fully functional bone blades growing out of their hands ?

 

I think the blades comes out of their forearm? Anyways the chapter is the black dragons of the cursed 21st founding

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yep, the Black Dragons had ossified growths come from their arms and heads, which they either remove or sharpen and plate in adamantium. There's also the Flame Falcons, the Loyalist Chapter which spntaneously combusted, yet survived inside the fire, taking it as a sign of the Emperors favour (sadly, the GK disagreed with their interpretation). So, we can add "spikes" and "covered in searing flames" to the list of things that don't technically make you non-Loyalist. Surely though, using one of those armies using a Loyalist book (which GW encouraged, even writing rules for them using the Loyalist book) would be illegal, as they obviously look like Chaos Marines ! :cuss

 

And hey, good find, Drako, we've got an actual Studio member using a Space Wolf army, yet every model is covered in Khornate and Chaos iconography!

[Emperors Immortals]

You can use any model youfeel like.

 

It used to be there were two rules

 

1.The Rule of Cool - always model the coolest option first;

 

and

 

2.Dont be beardy - Dont use the above rule to unfair advantage.

 

And that covers every situation ive ever encountered.

 

 

 

Have a black legion army you want to run as Loyalist dogs? Fine, im unliky to confuse the you for an ultramarine half way through the game.

 

I run my World Eaters as BA most of the time (i have a BA army as well and i love the dex), and no one has got confused.

 

So if anyone tries to tell you to stick to your own book, smack them upside the head with both codex's and ask them to tell you which one is which - as they should be able to if there was such a huge difference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*above post is designed to be provocative, but not trolling*

[Legatus]

What does a Chaos Marine look like though?

In general, Chaos Space Marine armour will be decorated with characteristic "arrowhead" markings. The exhausts of their back packs are also generally enlarged, compared to loyalist back packs. They might also have Chaos icons or horns on their armour, though not neccessarily. Their helmets will usually be mean looking, not straight up MK7 helmets (though since 3rd Edition GW has unfortunately started to move towards MK7 helmets for Chaos Marines). And of course the traitor Legions and the known renegade Chapters are recogniseable by their colour scheme and their icons.

 

In general, a player of only casual experience should be capable to distinguish between a Chaos Space Marine and a loyal Space Marine, even if he was not familiar with their particular colour scheme.

 

 

What does a Loyalist look like? The Soul Drinkers believe they're loyalists, and fight for the Emperor, yet they're mutated to hell.

Loyalist armour, in comparison with Chaos armour, is much cleaner and less detailed. They rarely have accentuated borders on the individual armour elements, except for their shoulder pads, whereas traitor armour elements will often have borders, usually including the sharp "arrowheads", and studs.

 

The peculiar thing about the Sould Drinkers is that they just turned, so they did not have a lot of time to adjust their armour. (out of neccessity and environment, not deliberately for turning.) Give them a few decades in the Maelstrom or the Eye of Terror and their armour would surely start looking like those of other renegades.

 

 

Can I not have pelt-wearing Codex-adherents? After all, are they closer to White Scars or Space Wolves in appearance, so which codex am I looking like?

Assuming they do not look like Space Wolves or White Scars (which are recogniseable by their colours and symbols more than by their armour decoration), then players will not associate a particular rule set with them. For your DIY you can pick one of the existing rule sets to use. This would only lead to issues if your Chapter's colour scheme looked a lot like that of an existing Chapter.

 

 

What about crusading, knightly Imperial Fist successor? Are they simply proxied Black Templar models painted the wrong colour?

If they do not look like the Imperial Fists or the Black Templars, then the opponent will not associate a particular rule set with them.

 

 

What about "Chaos" Marines who don't worship Chaos? Am I proxying just because I don't have tentacles coming off every model?

"Chaos" is identified first and foremost by their particular armour design. Mutations are not required. How much your renegades worship Chaos is entirely up to you and your armies fluff. Models should only be required to have mutations if they are supposed to represent possessed Chaos Space Marines.

 

 

What's the visual difference between a Blood Angel successor and an Ultramarine successor?

Chapters are identified by their armour colours and by their icon. If your DIY successor does not look like one of the known Chapters, the opponent will not associate a particular rule set with them.

[Antarius]

Yep, the Black Dragons had ossified growths come from their arms and heads, which they either remove or sharpen and plate in adamantium. There's also the Flame Falcons, the Loyalist Chapter which spntaneously combusted, yet survived inside the fire, taking it as a sign of the Emperors favour (sadly, the GK disagreed with their interpretation). So, we can add "spikes" and "covered in searing flames" to the list of things that don't technically make you non-Loyalist. Surely though, using one of those armies using a Loyalist book (which GW encouraged, even writing rules for them using the Loyalist book) would be illegal, as they obviously look like Chaos Marines !

 

And hey, good find, Drako, we've got an actual Studio member using a Space Wolf army, yet every model is covered in Khornate and Chaos iconography!

There's also the current "demonic" version of the Salamanders to consider.

 

Anyways, I've tried looking for alternate rules for my Night Lords (since I'd like to run them without demons, cult troops and obliterators, leaving my range of selections a bit slim). My gaming group was pretty averse to the idea though, leading me to think "oh sod it, I'll just wait for a new codex and play my Black Legion and Ultramarine guys until then.

[Son of Rawl]

End of the day it is your game just as much as it is others, it's always been alright with me I just want to have fun

[Rayray]

Legatus, you really need to lighten up. As far as this guy is concerned, so long as his opponent is informed and his games are enjoyable, not a word spoken to him in a condescending tone matters. As mentioned by other players, while he plays using gw rules and gw models, it is his game.

[Legatus]

No, I don't think I need to lighten up... ^_^

 

As I said in my initial post, a lot of people do not have a problem with proxying. But other people do. The rest of my sposts were discussing what would technically constitute or not constitute "proxying".

[Saa]

Legatus, you really need to lighten up. As far as this guy is concerned, so long as his opponent is informed and his games are enjoyable, not a word spoken to him in a condescending tone matters. As mentioned by other players, while he plays using gw rules and gw models, it is his game.

 

Lol. The OP asked a question.....people answered and offered opinions....Legatus had the decency to extrapolate in depth regarding 'his' perspective..... Maybe you need to lighten up as there's always going to be people with opinions that differ to yours :)

 

Saa