Chaos codex

[helghyst]

Is it just me or do we need more codices for the chaos marines? I have wanted for some time to make an iron warrior army but using the current codex nerfs all that i originally thought was cool about them (using siege weapons), you could do a specific codex per heretic legion ala: thousand sons, world eaters, death guard, iron warriors, emperors children, night lords, word bearers and alpha legion. also new sculpts for each would be appreciated( i personally don't like the horned helmets) and some variety in heads and armor like we have seen in the space wolves box.

 

I can't be the only one who thinks this way, any thoughts? :)

[Hellios]

Is it just me or do we need more codices for the chaos marines? I have wanted for some time to make an iron warrior army but using the current codex nerfs all that i originally thought was cool about them (using siege weapons), you could do a specific codex per heretic legion ala: thousand sons, world eaters, death guard, iron warriors, emperors children, night lords, word bearers and alpha legion. also new sculpts for each would be appreciated( i personally don't like the horned helmets) and some variety in heads and armor like we have seen in the space wolves box.

 

I can't be the only one who thinks this way, any thoughts? :cuss

 

This topic might be better suited for the Chaos board :D

 

That aside, yes our current codex is rubbish but I would not say more codices is the answer... loyalists have too many :S

[jimmimellows]

There are a couple of other posts already discussing our need for a new codex/new codex wishlist in the chaos forums!

I personally feel that we could do with a new codex not written by an utter cretin!

[Saa]

There are a couple of other posts already discussing our need for a new codex/new codex wishlist in the chaos forums!

I personally feel that we could do with a new codex not written by an utter cretin!

 

Well if the rumours are true then you'll get your wish. Phil Kelly writes a good codex

 

Saa

[helghyst]

Sorry i didn't look far enough to see the other threads.

I would love not only a new revamped codex but more for the traitors, the damned loyalist chapters have what something like seven!

and barring the ones like the black templar and grey knight each are based on one of the primarchs. chaos could use this option IMHO. if more codices are not the answer then one huge codex with all of the traitor chapter with special rules for each just like the space marine codex has when you add a special character. I would rather use the blood angel or space wolves codex for a world eater army and black templar for the word bearers, blood angels again for a night lord army and the standard space marine codex for an iron warrior army any of these are far better then the chaos codex fluff wise.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

This is better off in the Chaos forums. Topic moved.

 

Also. This thread will not devolve into a 'why the current Chaos Codex sucks thread', or it will be closed, we've had enough of those already.

[Brother Ambroz]

Considering fully half the emperor's chosen (Astartes) turned to chaos I do agree that it is strange that we only have one dex. Granted, the imperium has more chapters now but we also have chapters turned renegade/to chaos. Who knows why they decided to go with only one dex.

[helghyst]

I don't think the codex sucks i just think it is geared more towards the black legion or vanilla chaos legions like the space marine codex is geared towards vanilla space marines. I would and have fielded a chaos legion from the black legion and have enjoyed doing so, but i would enjoy some specialist army type that's all.

[Dammeron]

Nah, it'd be clunky and unnecessary to produce multiple chaos codicies. It'sentirely possible to create a single, mutable army list from which all legions, any number of renegade variations, and even daemons and cultists can be represented. How?:

 

- Introduce gradations of H.Q. character: Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes are the Big Bosses. any army led by them may take Traitor Legionnaries (a replacement for Chosen representing the ancient, hideously skilled, equipped and blessed warriors of Chaos from before the heresy who are evil on the battlefield but few in number owing to a suitably unpleasant points cost) as troops. Otherwise, they count as elites. Traitor Legionnary units have augmented stats (WS and I 5, Ld 10), are Fearless, have access to a wider variety of equipment etc etc. Armies led by Daemon Princes may also take daemonic units as troops, elites or H.Q.s, depending on the appropriate slot. Armies led by other characters (some form of lieutenant, Exalted Champions, Pirate Captains or whatever) can only take Traitor Legionnaries as elites. The troops slots must be filled out with Renegades or more standard troop selections (Chaos Cultists etc).

- H.Q.s have access to abilities and/or equipment redolent of particular Traitor Legions that change the dynamics or the armies they lead. Only one such option may be taken per army. Some are redolent of the established legions, some are entirely new, etc. Alternatively, you could have the system I much prefer: There are established lists of Chaos Rewards/Daemonic Gifts/whatever that Independent Characters/Models in units with a particular Mark of Chaos can take for a suitable points cost per model. These allow standard units with the appropriate Mark to be upgraded to the appropriate "cult" units, which would then occupy Elites slots unless the leader of the army bears the same Mark (for example, units/models with the Mark of Nurgle would be able to purchase a Gift that upgrades them to Plague Marines, as well as a few other less traditional Nurgle Gifts so that players could effectively create their own Chaos Cults). Similarly, there would be a list of Gifts available to units with the Mark of Chaos Undivided, each of which would reflect the dynamics of traditional Traitor Legions (for example, units could be upgraded to Night Stalkers, in which instance they gain the Stealth USR and impose a -1 modifier to Ld on any unit they successfully assault). In this manner, you could create an entire army of Night Lords via a mechanic that is within the army list itself, very easy to apply (little different from applying wargear), and could also mix and match "Gifts" throughout the army if you wanted a more unique or rag tag Renegade force.

[helghyst]

So you want a new codex or an updated one.

[darknightdrako]

Too bad GW couldnt put up some simple online rules/datasheets for Legion rules that adds on to the current 4th ed CSM dex. Couple examples:

 

Iron Warriors:

- In order to use IW Special rules, the army must be lead by a Warsmith.

- If the HS slot is full an extra Defiler or Vindicator may be taken at the expense of 2 FA slots.

- Any Infantry type that has a flamer can replace it for a heavy bolter, a melta gun can be replace for a rocket launcher and a plasma gun can be replace by a Lascannon. (A maximum of 1 Chosen Space Marine can replace their flamer/melta gun/plasma gun. This rule does not apply to Plauge Marines)

- Special character: Warsmith

 

World Eaters:

- In order to use WE special rules the HQ choice must have a MoK.

- The entire army cannot have Icons and Marks of the other three gods.

- Icons/Mok are free

- Any unit that is composed of 8 models can replace one model to be an aspiring chamion for free.

- Khorne berserkers cost 16 pts each.

- Special character: Greater daemon of Khorne

- Special unit: Blood Letters

[helghyst]

I like the idea of the data sheets, so you could use an apocalypse style one to make some up (so long as you play at 3k plus point games or you don't mind playing with home brew rules)

[Kristoff]

Honestly, the only reason I would not want multiple Chaos Marine codecies is that there are already too many Loyalist ones. There should be one Loyalist, one Chaos, and one Grey Knights (they are too different to not have their own codex, that whole Inquisition thing). They then should let Forgeworld create books to do all the variants from Alpha Legion to Space Wolves. That would be simplest practice, to be honest.

[Antarius]

Honestly, the only reason I would not want multiple Chaos Marine codecies is that there are already too many Loyalist ones. There should be one Loyalist, one Chaos, and one Grey Knights (they are too different to not have their own codex, that whole Inquisition thing). They then should let Forgeworld create books to do all the variants from Alpha Legion to Space Wolves. That would be simplest practice, to be honest.

Honestly, if we want to cut it down that much, Grey Knights should just plain not have a codex.

 

Anyways, I think it's a good thing that there are a lot of codexes, if only they were balanced a bit better (internally and externally) they would provide us with a lot of diversity and characterful armies. Which would be good.

[Bearingtheword]

I guess I am one of the few that will never understand that opinion....

 

It's like going to restaurant and saying, "Well, we have soup, and we have bread and we have water. Even though we talk about steak and potatoes and lobster, that's just too many choices to put on a menu so we don't need them. Who cares if some of our customers want more than soup, bread and water." (Flawed metaphor I know but it's late and I'm tired.)

 

More books is an opportunity for GW to make more $$$, which as a business that has to be one of their primary goals. Some may argue that all that's really needed can be fit into one book. If that were true than people wouldn't be pissed off at the lack of current options in the current one. I, and many I have talked with, like the fact that there are different books for different loyalist chapters. We love the background and the fluff contained within them. We would certainly welcome the improved fluff and expanded backgrounds that could done if the were to produce a handful of new books on the Chaos legions as well. It'd be a great opportunity for them to be flushed out and updated. I would certainly spend my cash on them, and I would think they would also be a great way to attract more players to playing CSM.

 

I just think that Chaos Legions deserve an expanded pallette, or at the absolute very least a combined "legions" 'dex.

 

~BtW

[Kristoff]

I guess I am one of the few that will never understand that opinion....

 

It's like going to restaurant and saying, "Well, we have soup, and we have bread and we have water. Even though we talk about steak and potatoes and lobster, that's just too many choices to put on a menu so we don't need them. Who cares if some of our customers want more than soup, bread and water." (Flawed metaphor I know but it's late and I'm tired.)

 

Except in this case it's "Well, we have one soup, we have water, we have 15 different types of chicken, but only one cut of beef, and one type fish for seafood, and just brown bread."

 

I am a big fan of variety, but right now all the variety is concentrated in one specific area.

 

If their system could handle more codecies properly, I would be in favor of expanding all aspects of every army, but right now, it is just far too clunky for them to manage. So we have 5 different Loyalist Marine Chapters, 1 Chaos, and 1 Inquisition (and 1 Xenos if you consider Necron MEQ), and so many different Xenos and Imperial codecies that could use an update, but probably won't before the next edition comes.

[darth_giles]

Well, I wouldn't mind having multiple Chaos codices- one for cult lists, one for the undivided legions, and maybe one for renegades and traitors. With Daemons folded into all three as an integral part of the relevant lists. The trick will be putting a sock into all the facerollers who will start complaining that there needs to be more her-a-derp randomness because "chaos is chaos and chaos is random!" and all that nonsense.

 

As it is, I'd suggest having fun with choices the IW wouldn't normally take, and make the best of our current situation. That's what I plan on doing with my Word Bearers.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I guess I am one of the few that will never understand that opinion....

 

It's like going to restaurant and saying, "Well, we have soup, and we have bread and we have water. Even though we talk about steak and potatoes and lobster, that's just too many choices to put on a menu so we don't need them. Who cares if some of our customers want more than soup, bread and water." (Flawed metaphor I know but it's late and I'm tired.)

 

Except in this case it's "Well, we have one soup, we have water, we have 15 different types of chicken, but only one cut of beef, and one type fish for seafood, and just brown bread."

 

I am a big fan of variety, but right now all the variety is concentrated in one specific area.

Oooooorrrr GW could just expand itself to handle 15 types of everything :D

[Kristoff]

I guess I am one of the few that will never understand that opinion....

 

It's like going to restaurant and saying, "Well, we have soup, and we have bread and we have water. Even though we talk about steak and potatoes and lobster, that's just too many choices to put on a menu so we don't need them. Who cares if some of our customers want more than soup, bread and water." (Flawed metaphor I know but it's late and I'm tired.)

 

Except in this case it's "Well, we have one soup, we have water, we have 15 different types of chicken, but only one cut of beef, and one type fish for seafood, and just brown bread."

 

I am a big fan of variety, but right now all the variety is concentrated in one specific area.

Oooooorrrr GW could just expand itself to handle 15 types of everything ;)

 

I've already acknowledged that as an option, but it's GW who denies it as a possibility with their own release schedule. They're the ones who only release a codex when they have enough new models (completely new, not just new versions of old models) to justify a release. The old IAs in WD were a good example how you could have the 15 of all varieties out on the field. But it was the GW Tournament Organizers who helped put the kibosh on that concept by not allowing them to be run competitively (same with ForgeWorld).

 

But even at that point, we're still looking at the unnecessary GAME need for full codecies for most of the Space Marine armies (fluff is an entirely different story).

[Bearingtheword]

That's kind of the reason I am leaning toward starting to play all my games as Apoc games....Sick of the damned limitations.... Just have to wait and see what is going to happen with the new

dex I guess....but that won't stop me from having fun and painting up new minis in the meantime ;)

 

~BtW

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

I do understand a lot of the points here but I am against EACH traitor legion having it's own Codex.

 

As things stand, we are told that those legions that broke away during HH are warbands of varying sizes, who come together for mutual goals at varying times and then go on their merry way or they fight among themselves for sppils at the end of battle. To have each legion with it's own 'dex would make GW more money but they also have to take in to consideration how they are packaging the game and it's fluff. It's the same reason why they will probably never do the Eldar in multiple codex for each Craftworld.

 

it would then imply that each legion is now the size of each loyalist chapter and that they are fully self sufficient unless you were to look at an Apocolypse sized battle. Which, would rewrite what we know of the traitors currently, which isn't beyond the style of GW in the case of making money, but I still feel that there is something that sits discretely wrong with me anyway... I felt the 3.5 dex was a fine example of how one book could work for all chapters but it didn't give much for the abilities of cross-pollenation of a warband.

[alphariusomegon20]

Honestly, the only reason I would not want multiple Chaos Marine codecies is that there are already too many Loyalist ones. There should be one Loyalist, one Chaos, and one Grey Knights (they are too different to not have their own codex, that whole Inquisition thing). They then should let Forgeworld create books to do all the variants from Alpha Legion to Space Wolves. That would be simplest practice, to be honest.

Honestly, if we want to cut it down that much, Grey Knights should just plain not have a codex.

 

Anyways, I think it's a good thing that there are a lot of codexes, if only they were balanced a bit better (internally and externally) they would provide us with a lot of diversity and characterful armies. Which would be good.

 

Agreed, they were a specialist squad that could be taken as an ally and were never meant to have their own book or be a full army.

[Saa]

From a fluff perspective I'd love seperate codecies for every Traitor and Renegade legion. However in actuality I think its an unnecessary exercise to produce them. A few pages of special rules for each legion in a single codex keeps the rules fairly concise, easily accessible and simplifies the problem.

 

Saa

[Lord_Caerolion]

I guess I am one of the few that will never understand that opinion....

 

It's like going to restaurant and saying, "Well, we have soup, and we have bread and we have water. Even though we talk about steak and potatoes and lobster, that's just too many choices to put on a menu so we don't need them. Who cares if some of our customers want more than soup, bread and water." (Flawed metaphor I know but it's late and I'm tired.)

 

At least it's better than saying "Well, we've got 20 sorts of soup, chicken, beef, pork, vegetables, fish and sides, but we've only got 3 chefs, so your meal will arrive in approximately 3 months".

 

As they said at the Games Day, they've already got too many books to keep updated without adding more. They just don't have the time to do justice to any more books. Hell, even at the moment, it took around what, a decade, for Dark Eldar to get an update? How long have Necrons been waiting? How long until SoBs get their actual book, or the DA get a new one? Even with what they've currently got, they can't give everything the attention it deserves. To suggest that they make another 8 books (one for each Legion other than the Black Legion), or even just another 4 (each Cult), is too much strain on an already strained system.

[Panda_]

This is why they should be rebuilding our codex. Every legions and renegades in the same book.

 

This is why they should be merging every loyalist (BA, BT, DA, UM, SW) codecii into the another book.

 

Each side needs his book (one to rule them all). It might be a bigger one, with specific pages. But they can't have so much codecii. 8 years to get a new codex ? No thanks.