Tybrus Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 So I got the new Forgeworld book in the mail yesterday and was reading up on the contemptor dred trying to figure what to paint mine and it dawned on me. The fluff says that the contemptor were standard durning the crusade, and used by all legions. Now then I know that Borjorn was entombed later then the crusade BUT why was he not enturned in one when it became open? My only thoughts on why are 1) By the time he was enturned the ability to bound a host with a contemptor had already been lost. However, if that were the case then all contemptor would be older then Borjorn and fluff says that is not true... 2) No Contemptor has come open since he was enturned However, the odds of that are slim indeed, as we know they still see combat, and as they are not older then Borjorn some must have been lost since he was enturned 3) Moving him from his current body to that of a contemptor would cause to much trauma, or the newer sarcophagus is incompatible with the contemptor This one makes the most sense to me, mostly that the sarcophagus he was enturned into was the newer style, and he could never be removed from that tomb to be moved into a contemptor one... 4) GW messed you fluff once more and there is no reason This is most likely the truth of the matter, but lets just pretend there is a real fluff reason and look at the 3 above (or any I missed) So those are my thoughts ... PS: Note that my sig is a contemptor dred funny that it was made back in 2007-2008 by an amazing artist on the boards, back before they had a name for them LOL just funny to notice that.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 BJORN was placed in a beter version and newer than the contemptor, the fact that they are still used doesn't reduct to Bjorn's fluff as there are older dreads about but he is the oldest pilot in a dread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2892763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 BJORN was placed in a beter version and newer than the contemptor, the fact that they are still used doesn't reduct to Bjorn's fluff as there are older dreads about but he is the oldest pilot in a dread. Yeah, that spelling was driving me nuts, but not used nearly as often as "enturned"... No such word exists, but I'll assume you meant either "interred" or "entombed". Anyway, not sure if this was the direction Max was going, but another option is that the initial interment of Bjorn's body was in a contemptor, but like any battle, it likely took damage, and over time, took enough damage to necessitate transplanting Bjorn into newer models. This plays well with his special rule of becoming a mission objective upon being destroyed. Likely, when he's recovered, the sarcophagus is too badly damaged and Bjorn gets a brand new one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2892768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonGuard Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Just as well, those Contemptor models are ugly anyway Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2892825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Do we know how long Bjorn was great wolf for after Russ left for the Fang, it could be that the time he was entombed into a Dreadnought as that was the only available one to place him into Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2892833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Do we know how long Bjorn was great wolf for after Russ left for the Fang, it could be that the time he was entombed into a Dreadnought as that was the only available one to place him into "When Bjorn suffered mortal wounds during the Proxima Rebellion he was incarcerated in the Dreadnought which still bears his remains. though rebuilt and maintained by generations of Iron Priests, his sarcophagus remains essentially the same. He is armed with an assault cannon and a unique weapon, a single Lightning Claw, which was his favourite armament when truly alive." Additionally, "within his metal cask Bjorn went to fight further battles over many centuries. Eventually his mind began to drift into unending sleep, for even mortal flesh and metal cannot live forever." However, at some point it became clear that a new leader for the Space Wolves would be required, and it was at this point that the current tradition began. - 2nd Edition Codex. We know that Leman Russ departed the Space Wolves during the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension in the year 197 after the Emperor was incarcerated within his Golden Throne, with all of his personal retainers except for Bjorn. We also know that exactly 7 years after the disapperance of Leman Russ, Bjorn was awarded the title "Great Wolf", and he announced and launched the first "Great Hunt" to go seek out their Primarch. We know that he lead the Space Wolves for some period of time, but don't have the date (at least I don't remember it ever being referenced) for the Proxima Rebellion. Despite his incarceration within a Dreadnought's sarcophagus, he continued to fight, and I assume lead, for many centuries. -------------------------- The simple fact of the matter is that Bjorn was invented about 20 years before these new-fangled Contemptor Dreadnoughts, so it's a little silly trying to figure out the "fluff-justification" for why he isn't in one, when we have the obvious "real-world" reason. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2893247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 As far as I know, Bjorn is one of the few Dreadnoughts with a built-in invulnerable save. ;) And he can more easily get a cover save than a Contemptor while still having comparable armor and fire-power. He's a bamf, make no mistake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2893274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_starrise Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 We know Bjorn is the oldest living dreadnought but not that he has the oldest dreadnought chassis, as has already been pointed out. As such, what's to say that he's not simply in this sarcophagi as it's easier to maintain & repair/re-arm than a contemptor & so in all the years he's been fighting a contemptor chasis wore out & this is what he has now BECAUSE it's so easy to keep up on? That makes sense from a fluff perspective to me. IRL GW, as always, muffed the fluff by retconning something instead of making the AdMech less Nazi-ish w/ machinery & actually releasing something NEW. Because, you know, it would be just HORRIBLE to say, for example: "The thunderwolf is the new result of a gene-splicing/breeding program to produce even more massive fenrisian wolves in captivity by the Wolf Priests & Iron Priest of the Fang." As opposed to saying basically "The Thunderwolf has been there all along, you knew that, right?" Just an example, not actually the topic itself, obviously. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2893303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 the TH where there all alonge they were also made smaller . in the 2ed dex the bigger ones were said to be the size of rhinos . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2893583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_starrise Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 the TH where there all alonge they were also made smaller . in the 2ed dex the bigger ones were said to be the size of rhinos . I'm guessing you mean TWC? And yes, there were Fenrisian wolves always mentioned including some giant ones in the 2ed Codex, however, the use of them as combat mounts is a new thing that's been turned into a thing that was there all along it feels. My point really (as you seem to have missed) is that instead of actually introducing something new as such, GW likes to make it something old that we should have known about all along but just didn't. Except for the Stormraven which is actually mentioned as new. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2894063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Lord Mjolnir Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 If you read the fluff about the space wolf contemptor you'll see that space wolves never really trusted the contemptor chassis as they believed they were barely in control of the power they could wield. Only the most bloody warriors were incarcerated into them which kind of led to a self fulfilling cycle. Bjorn was a Great Wolf and a mighty hero so I doubt the Iron Priests would have wanted him in a contemptor. I love this new fluff as it ties in with Space Wolf superstitions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2894185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 My point really (as you seem to have missed) is that instead of actually introducing something new as such, GW likes to make it something old that we should have known about all along but just didn't and how are they suppose to do stuff different when the storyline never progresses ? Russ had two TWC as pets , but then again he was a primarch , so probably bigger then a space marine[save for that one SW dude]. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2894439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 My point really (as you seem to have missed) is that instead of actually introducing something new as such, GW likes to make it something old that we should have known about all along but just didn't and how are they suppose to do stuff different when the storyline never progresses ? Russ had two TWC as pets , but then again he was a primarch , so probably bigger then a space marine[save for that one SW dude]. I think that might be what you're getting confused about. You keep saying TWC, as in Thunderwolf Cavalry. Red_starisse is comparing the differences in lore releases between Thunderwolves and FENRISIAN wolves. Also, point in fact, Leman Russ' wolves, Freki and Geri, were Fenrisian wolves (which have been in the codex since 2E, or earlier?) and NOT Thunderwolves. ...oh, and this is off topic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2894459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Considering their size in the stories they couldnt have been normal wolf [and no I dont mean the fluff about Russ beating all the wolf princes to obey/fear him , because that may as well be a story about russ beating clan leaders changed after time . just like killing a dragon or demon/god demon was offten put in place of a story of killing/destroying a nation/warlord etc] they are half his size and Russ had no man taller then him save that one WG dude . unless GW changed the size of Russ lately then his wolfs couldnt have been smaller . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2894802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Considering their size in the stories they couldnt have been normal wolf [and no I dont mean the fluff about Russ beating all the wolf princes to obey/fear him , because that may as well be a story about russ beating clan leaders changed after time . just like killing a dragon or demon/god demon was offten put in place of a story of killing/destroying a nation/warlord etc] they are half his size and Russ had no man taller then him save that one WG dude . unless GW changed the size of Russ lately then his wolfs couldnt have been smaller . Sorry, they were Fenrisian wolves.. always have been. Another thing you might be misconstruing is that, despite most gamers' efforts, there is no model for Fenrisian wolves by GW, so all these conversions or proxies (aka chaos warhounds/goblin wolf mounts/lotr wargs) could quite easily be smaller than what Fenrisian wolves are intended to be. Not to mention that you keep saying "normal" wolves. Fenrisian wolves are not your average Grey Wolf encountered in the mountain ranges of Canada or something. They're meant to be atleast double that. However, GW often flakes on their own fluff, and have too many inaccuracies to count, such as Space Marines are suppose to tower over humans, yet put one next to an IG model... in regard to this debate, this image illustrates it better (only one I could google quickly): http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p63/commissar_will/IMG_0078.jpg Note that those are the wolves that came with Leman Russ prior to 2nd edition. And the model itself is about a head shorter than the Ragnar model. What does this mean? That this debate is pointless and off topic. Go back to Bjorn and contemptors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2894996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsterofFenris Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 I'm not sure if this has been said, but in BOTF bjorn gets the pooped kicked out of him, so maybe he once was a contemptor and after fistfighting magnus got put in a more "standardised" dread? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2895145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironwulf Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 I'm not sure if this has been said, but in BOTF bjorn gets the pooped kicked out of him, so maybe he once was a contemptor and after fistfighting magnus got put in a more "standardised" dread? I dunno. I just finished BOTF last night, and I thought it sounded like Bjorn was already encased in a "standard pattern" boxy Dread. A contemptor-pattern Dred would have the head that is still "helmet-like", and it seemed relevant to the story that it was not the way Bjorn was interred. To me, BOTF made Bjorn even MORE of a bad-ass, just proving his reputation. Just my 2 creds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2895162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillen Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Or maybe just maybe there is no Contemptor Dread cause there were no Contemptor dreads for Bjorn. The old metal dread kit was not liked. And so they made a new kit that looked way better and then they converted it to plastic and then Forge world decided to try and make a new dread based off the old dread metal kit and they made it. And it's ok in looks but nothing to write home about and then they give it over powered rules so it's bad ass and all the little children will rush off and buy it. Well make mommy and daddy buy it as a High School kid could hardly afford these models now aaaahh days. So the real reason that bjorn is in the current marine dread is??? That is right, we just had someone make up these new dread bodies. Come on people. It's not brian surgery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2895166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tybrus Posted October 8, 2011 Author Share Posted October 8, 2011 Or maybe just maybe there is no Contemptor Dread cause there were no Contemptor dreads for Bjorn. The old metal dread kit was not liked. And so they made a new kit that looked way better and then they converted it to plastic and then Forge world decided to try and make a new dread based off the old dread metal kit and they made it. And it's ok in looks but nothing to write home about and then they give it over powered rules so it's bad ass and all the little children will rush off and buy it. Well make mommy and daddy buy it as a High School kid could hardly afford these models now aaaahh days. So the real reason that bjorn is in the current marine dread is??? That is right, we just had someone make up these new dread bodies. Come on people. It's not brian surgery. Hey read the whole string (IE see my #4), and stop growling at your wolf brothers, least you get your ears nipped.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2895265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Who is Brian and why is he in surgery? Derp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2895286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tybrus Posted October 8, 2011 Author Share Posted October 8, 2011 Who is Brian and why is he in surgery? Derp. Umm right... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2895296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Who is Brian and why is he in surgery? Derp. Umm right... I find it comical when people fly off, spouting snide and pointless remarks, yet do not bother glancing at spelling errors for situationally ironic phrases such as "brian surgery". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239771-bjorn-2ed-rate/#findComment-2895320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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