Gunslinger87 Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I've just been re-reading A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns and now in PB there are two cases where the falling of Horus is predicted and Leman Russ actually knows about Magnus' prediction. What I'd find interesting would be the internal struggle of those that were warned and didn't act. Leman Russ will probably feel extremely guilty for breaking Magnus' back when he realizes Magnus was right. Obviously he will still find plenty of reasons why it must have been done (Maleficarum etc) but still... Something similar happens elsewhere in the series. I'm just wondering if anyone else has been pondering what happened to those that completely wiped the possibility from the table or even condemned those that made the claim... and then it happened. PS Also, did anyone also find it strange that in Horus Rising, the thought of even hurting another marine is almost unthinkable and Loken can't do it even though its blatantly obvious he must. And then (which would have also been at a time before any divide was made and basically the same situation) other legions threaten each other or even have no problem attacking and destroying another legion? Not that it is a problem, I never noticed it on my first reading, but putting all of the books in chronological order shows that perhaps in the first novel they tried very hard to make it look like something completely unthinkable, but then that was far too hard to work with. Just a thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 i doubt russ will feel guilty over magnus, or not in the way you imply. if anything, russ will feel guilty that magnus escaped justice. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2893466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I bet if anything, Russ would feel guilty that he didn't heed the warning and take off to fight the strongest opponent he'd ever faced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2893473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I bet if anything, Russ would feel guilty that he didn't heed the warning and take off to fight the strongest opponent he'd ever faced. Heresy! Russ faced the emperor before swearing loyalty to him. are you saying magnus is more powerful than the Emperor? ;) and Russ brought the SoS and the Adeptus Custodes to Prospero...what more could he bring? (other than titans) WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2893480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 You know what's even more heretical than my post? When you mention the Emprah, I realized I completely forgot about him. Like, didn't even know he existed. I mean honestly, how could I forget when the Master of Mankind punched out Russ over tea on Russ' own table? Lame. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2893524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 You know what's even more heretical than my post? When you mention the Emprah, I realized I completely forgot about him. Like, didn't even know he existed. I mean honestly, how could I forget when the Master of Mankind punched out Russ over tea on Russ' own table? Lame. ... *looks around, finds bolt pistol* For the crimes you have admitted to today *BLAM* WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2893541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I bet if anything, Russ would feel guilty that he didn't heed the warning and take off to fight the strongest opponent he'd ever faced. Heresy! Russ faced the emperor before swearing loyalty to him. are you saying magnus is more powerful than the Emperor? :P and Russ brought the SoS and the Adeptus Custodes to Prospero...what more could he bring? (other than titans) WLK I think he was talking about Horus ;) Actually, it's funny because c-wrex is right. Russ is probably going to feel more guilty about not fighting Horus personally when he had the chance rather than destroying Prospero. I know he is one of the best fighters of the Primarchs and all, and I know almost all of the primarchs were very arrogant, but out of all the loyalist primarchs only Russ would have that reaction - all the rest would regret having destroyed the Thousand Sons much, much more. Even if some of them only regretted it for the extra Legion that could have been on their side, they would still much rather have the Thousand Sons with them. Only Russ would regret not facing Horus more - if he regretted destroying them at all :( Sorry, WLK, but that is one of your primarch's major flaws - he prides himself on destroying his very brothers, simply because they don't see things the way he and the Emperor do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2893559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 ... *looks around, finds bolt pistol* For the crimes you have admitted to today *BLAM* WLK Luckily, my Internet Sarcasm save is a 2+, and I survived that blast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2893577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 @DAT: You call that a flaw, his desire to purge any that defy the Emperor, but i see that as the core difference between Russ and the other CC monster Primarch (angron). We are unleashed on a specific foe for a specific cause when even space marines might falter, do the deed, then continue to next target. Angron is unleashed to keep the sheep in line. The amount of carnage was so great even Guilliman found it distasteful. Angron is when you need to kill everything breathing on a planet with no regard for rebuilding. While the Wolves do some crazy things to drop a foe, they stay in the rules. Angron has no rules. Russ vs Horus...i am told by more experienced lore masters (Legatus and Beef) that Russ was the only person to take Horus in a duel. Now chaos enhaunced Horus wold wipe the floor with Russ, i have no doubt about that. I love my primarch but try not to be a fanboy. But Russ would sure as hell do more then chink Horus's armor (as some sources say Sangy did, leaving a weakness for the emperor to exploit) and i got that after i posted, but was busy painting for the first time in days and didnt feel like editing. i figured i would respond again in this thread and could make corrections if needed. @c-rex: i thought your thick head would have deflected the shot... WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2893600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 I was talking specifically about the fact that Russ was warned twice that Horus was corrupt and that was Magnus' message to the emperor, yet he completely dismissed the possibility. (but had no problem assuming the same or similar for Magnus btw) So what will he do when he soon finds out Horus actually is corrupt... and exactly how Magnus said. He seemed reluctant to do so (when he makes the plea via Hawser to his brother to surrender), so I think you are (in a way) demeaning your primarch when you think he wont mourn his brother, or at least regret what happened. Obviously the hate between the two legions remains afterwards, but that shouldnt stop him regretting the fact that he may have had a big role in that outcome. Its all much less black and white :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2893725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikt208 Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I think Russ would regret attacking Magnus, however he is a pragmatist, and realises what's done is done, you can't go back in time so let's rethink our next step and learn from this. As for Russ and his much debated role as executioners, this is subjective, and ultimately its what the Wolves believe of themselves, not necessarily what the other legions do. Russ vs. Horus? I have been led to believe that the only primarch that COULD stand toe to toe with Horus was Sanguinius, the fact he only chinked his armour is meant to underline just how powerful Horus had become, not slight Sanguinius' ablilty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2893731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broker Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 @DAT: You call that a flaw, his desire to purge any that defy the Emperor, but i see that as the core difference between Russ and the other CC monster Primarch (angron). We are unleashed on a specific foe for a specific cause when even space marines might falter, do the deed, then continue to next target. Angron is unleashed to keep the sheep in line. The amount of carnage was so great even Guilliman found it distasteful. Angron is when you need to kill everything breathing on a planet with no regard for rebuilding. While the Wolves do some crazy things to drop a foe, they stay in the rules. Angron has no rules. ;) I imagined Guilliman would regret ever having to take a planet by force. Guilliman always struck me as a character who understood the glory of war, and was very good at it, but would regret when it spilt over and affected a non-compliant world's populace. Much like how Argel Tal and Occuli Imperator feel in The First Heretic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2894173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 @DAT: You call that a flaw, his desire to purge any that defy the Emperor, but i see that as the core difference between Russ and the other CC monster Primarch (angron). We are unleashed on a specific foe for a specific cause when even space marines might falter, do the deed, then continue to next target. Angron is unleashed to keep the sheep in line. The amount of carnage was so great even Guilliman found it distasteful. Angron is when you need to kill everything breathing on a planet with no regard for rebuilding. While the Wolves do some crazy things to drop a foe, they stay in the rules. Angron has no rules. :) I imagined Guilliman would regret ever having to take a planet by force. Guilliman always struck me as a character who understood the glory of war, and was very good at it, but would regret when it spilt over and affected a non-compliant world's populace. Much like how Argel Tal and Occuli Imperator feel in The First Heretic. i was referencing Guilliman's reaction to th Cleansing of Ariggatta after seeing the handiwork of the world eaters. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2894200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 @DAT: You call that a flaw, his desire to purge any that defy the Emperor, but i see that as the core difference between Russ and the other CC monster Primarch (angron). We are unleashed on a specific foe for a specific cause when even space marines might falter, do the deed, then continue to next target. Angron is unleashed to keep the sheep in line. The amount of carnage was so great even Guilliman found it distasteful. Angron is when you need to kill everything breathing on a planet with no regard for rebuilding. While the Wolves do some crazy things to drop a foe, they stay in the rules. Angron has no rules. Which had nothing to do at all with what I said :) Russ vs Horus...i am told by more experienced lore masters (Legatus and Beef) that Russ was the only person to take Horus in a duel. Now chaos enhaunced Horus wold wipe the floor with Russ, i have no doubt about that. I love my primarch but try not to be a fanboy. But Russ would sure as hell do more then chink Horus's armor (as some sources say Sangy did, leaving a weakness for the emperor to exploit) and i got that after i posted, but was busy painting for the first time in days and didnt feel like editing. i figured i would respond again in this thread and could make corrections if needed. WLK And I also said nothing about the combat abilities of Russ, besides acknowledging he was one of the better fighters among the primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2894322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Sorry, WLK, but that is one of your primarch's major flaws - he prides himself on destroying his very brothers, simply because they don't see things the way he and the Emperor do. Responding to this. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2894329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Sorry, WLK, but that is one of your primarch's major flaws - he prides himself on destroying his very brothers, simply because they don't see things the way he and the Emperor do. Responding to this. WLK You talked about how Russ was a terrible opponent to fight because he'd do anything. I commented on him destroying his brothers, and taking pride in it. Two different things there, at least, that's what I'm seeing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2894403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 fair enough. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/239819-wondering-what-will-happen-post-heresy-or-even/#findComment-2894968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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