Was Horus really all That BadAss...?

[karden00]

I have been in and out of the hobby for about 14 years, and back when I got started in 2nd edition, the fluff was obviously much less developed than it is now. As everything develops, and I am a fan of everything 40k being developed, I notice that with the development of each Primarch, we are lead to believe that many of them embodied the epitome of their relative trade or trait. I need not elaborate, but I will anyway: Dorn and Pertaburo both sides of the siege coin;Khan the hit and run; Kurze and Corax, the unseen killers of the night. But my question is this: As I have been trained to understand it all, Horus was the best at everything. Above and beyond the abilities of his brothers. What does this mean when it comes to just how the Prime's rank compared to the Big H? Can he out-siege the two Siegers? Can he out-blitzkrieg the Khan? Can he out-butcher Angron? Can he out scare Night Crawler, and out-psych Magnus? How do you all see it?

[Captain Semper]

I think a good answer to that would be if you read Horus' account of his suitability to become Warmaster compared to his brothers in "False Gods". He actually thought

Sanguinius

was better for the job!

 

Quite fun to read actually (excluding the dramatic context)... that'll be in chapter 10.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

To your question, no. However, just as Curze and Corax were unseen killers, Khan was the Blitzkreig and Dorn and Perturabo were seige masters, so too did Horus have his unrivalled skill.

 

His was that of a leader - of an heir to the Imperium.

 

He was Warmaster not because he could out-master his brothers in any aspect, but because his one aspect was to be master of his brothers. Despite his words to Sanguinus, he was truly his father's son - Sanguinus shared the spirit, but it was Horus who held the vision. And it was the vision that allowed the Emperor to achieve so much, for was it not his vision of the galaxy united that led to the Great Crusade?

 

Sorry, I don't get to wax poetic about Horus very often, but pre-Heresy he was one of the few truly worthy primarchs :(

[Captain Semper]

Sorry, I don't get to wax poetic about Horus very often, but pre-Heresy he was one of the few truly worthy primarchs ;)

 

Agreed! BTW Horus was so awesome that I doubt any other primarch would have what it takes to make *insert name* Heresy such a monumental and devisive event. Only Horus could actually take half the Emperor's sons away from his light! That speaks tons for the man. You see, although some other Primarchs could argue the position of the Warmaster should be theirs that would be comparably easy under the unquestionable authority of the Emperor. But convince Primarchs to turn against the Emperor? That takes an outstanding individual! with a little help of his (warp) friends :).

[Clewz]

Think in the development of the HH series Horus is the Emperors ambition

[DIDM]

Sorry, I don't get to wax poetic about Horus very often, but pre-Heresy he was one of the few truly worthy primarchs ;)

 

Agreed! BTW Horus was so awesome that I doubt any other primarch would have what it takes to make *insert name* Heresy such a monumental and devisive event. Only Horus could actually take half the Emperor's sons away from his light! That speaks tons for the man. You see, although some other Primarchs could argue the position of the Warmaster should be theirs that would be comparably easy under the unquestionable authority of the Emperor. But convince Primarchs to turn against the Emperor? That takes an outstanding individual! with a little help of his (warp) friends :).

 

 

I think everyone forgets the role of Chaos in it all. Horus was a pawn at best when it came to the Heresy, it should have been the Lorgar Heresy, but Horus sounds better. I don't think one single Primarch thought Horus best for the role, but their Father made it so, so it was.

 

What will come out in the end is The Emperor is actually another Chaos God, and this has all been his plan, causing the end of the human virus. He picked the one son some of the others liked that would fall, and put in place the events that lead us to before Horus Rising. It can be the only explanation. He is gathering immense power in his throne to walk again as a God. King of Chaos.

 

Chaos is the building block of life, No?

[Walter Payton]

it was Horus who held the vision. And it was the vision that allowed the Emperor to achieve so much, for was it not his vision of the galaxy united that led to the Great Crusade?

 

This makes sense, but there is also fluff describing Guilliman in the same terms, which seems odd. I would argue that this vision in Horus, coupled to passion, his own prodigious tactical skill (more victories than anyone else etc) and diplomatic ability gave him an edge; it would seem odd that it was only one thing that gave him an edge.

 

Sorry, I don't get to wax poetic about Horus very often, but pre-Heresy he was one of the few truly worthy primarchs :)

 

Seconded. +10 to Lupercal. ;)

[Legatus]

This makes sense, but there is also fluff describing Guilliman in the same terms, which seems odd.

Well, if there are two siege masters, two sneaky ones, etc., then perhaps there can be two allrounder visionairies who would rally half their brothers and shape their future for the following millennia. But as with the other duos, one of them would be remembered as a terrible tyrant and would be eternally infamous as a result of his actions. And the other one was Horus.

[DIDM]

This makes sense, but there is also fluff describing Guilliman in the same terms, which seems odd.

Well, if there are two siege masters, two sneaky ones, etc., then perhaps there can be two allrounder visionairies who would rally half their brothers and shape their future for the following millennia. But as with the other duos, one of them would be remembered as a terrible tyrant and would be eternally infamous as a result of his actions. And the other one was Horus.

 

 

considering that there were 20, 2 are missing, and half of the remaining "fail" I'd say each one is basically the other balancing part of their counterpoint brother. The 2 missing must have had one get into Choas pre Lorgar and have his brother chase him into the Eye, and The Emperor erased them from history. In all honesty it really can't be that hard to pull major ideas out, as they don't exactly make this stuff up. Sure parts of it, but a lot of it is borrowed from other tales.

[Gunslinger87]

Sorry, I don't get to wax poetic about Horus very often, but pre-Heresy he was one of the few truly worthy primarchs :)

 

Agreed! BTW Horus was so awesome that I doubt any other primarch would have what it takes to make *insert name* Heresy such a monumental and devisive event. Only Horus could actually take half the Emperor's sons away from his light! That speaks tons for the man. You see, although some other Primarchs could argue the position of the Warmaster should be theirs that would be comparably easy under the unquestionable authority of the Emperor. But convince Primarchs to turn against the Emperor? That takes an outstanding individual! with a little help of his (warp) friends ;).

 

 

I think everyone forgets the role of Chaos in it all. Horus was a pawn at best when it came to the Heresy, it should have been the Lorgar Heresy, but Horus sounds better.

 

Actually, it was supposed to be the Magnus Heresy :-) if you believe the ruinous powers though... they could just be saying that to everyone :-)

[Coryphaus 101]

it was Horus who held the vision. And it was the vision that allowed the Emperor to achieve so much, for was it not his vision of the galaxy united that led to the Great Crusade?

 

This makes sense, but there is also fluff describing Guilliman in the same terms, which seems odd. I would argue that this vision in Horus, coupled to passion, his own prodigious tactical skill (more victories than anyone else etc) and diplomatic ability gave him an edge; it would seem odd that it was only one thing that gave him an edge.

I remember reading somewhere that Guilliman had the tactical genius, combat prowess, leadership and vision to be the warmaster but Horus was greater than him in every way or something like that.

[Billuriye]

Guilliman was a better choice. Horus may be the most charismatic and ambitious one but he was too sentimental. Guilliman, even after his father and many of his brothers lied dead, managed to recover Imperium from shambles.

[Gunslinger87]

it was Horus who held the vision. And it was the vision that allowed the Emperor to achieve so much, for was it not his vision of the galaxy united that led to the Great Crusade?

 

This makes sense, but there is also fluff describing Guilliman in the same terms, which seems odd. I would argue that this vision in Horus, coupled to passion, his own prodigious tactical skill (more victories than anyone else etc) and diplomatic ability gave him an edge; it would seem odd that it was only one thing that gave him an edge.

I remember reading somewhere that Guilliman had the tactical genius, combat prowess, leadership and vision to be the warmaster but Horus was greater than him in every way or something like that.

 

I don't think so... that would make Guilliman obsolete, since every primarch was made with a specific reason in mind. Why would the emperor then make: a good scientist... and an amazing scientist. What specific purpose would the "good" one have. Each primarch excels in something. Or in other words, no primarch is better in everything than another. Surely that would be pointless.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

This makes sense, but there is also fluff describing Guilliman in the same terms, which seems odd.

Well, if there are two siege masters, two sneaky ones, etc., then perhaps there can be two allrounder visionairies who would rally half their brothers and shape their future for the following millennia. But as with the other duos, one of them would be remembered as a terrible tyrant and would be eternally infamous as a result of his actions. And the other one was Horus.

 

Zing! Touché

A hit, a palpable hit ;)

 

I do think they are a pairing to be honest. But Horus is the more charismatic of the two, and Guilliman is more honest and a yeoman in his approach.

 

Obviously Dorn and Perturabo are the Seige masters.

 

Sanguinius and Angron are another pair. This time, the loyalist gets to be the beautiful one, whilst Angron is 'efficient' one.

 

Then Khan and Russ are a pair. But nicely, Russ has two other buddies. The Lion and Magnus. Leman Russ, forever the obstropolous one :( Yes, WLK, I wrote that for you ;)

[Valtonis]

To your question, no. However, just as Curze and Corax were unseen killers, Khan was the Blitzkreig and Dorn and Perturabo were seige masters, so too did Horus have his unrivalled skill.

 

His was that of a leader - of an heir to the Imperium.

 

He was Warmaster not because he could out-master his brothers in any aspect, but because his one aspect was to be master of his brothers. Despite his words to Sanguinus, he was truly his father's son - Sanguinus shared the spirit, but it was Horus who held the vision. And it was the vision that allowed the Emperor to achieve so much, for was it not his vision of the galaxy united that led to the Great Crusade?

 

Sorry, I don't get to wax poetic about Horus very often, but pre-Heresy he was one of the few truly worthy primarchs :(

 

 

Horus was not THE leader his skill was not in leading, it was in being a politician.

all the Primarchs are leaders but he was the best politician among the brothers, to be able to convince his brothers that his goal and his way was the right one and to allow compromises when others might not.

to basically be a snake and hypocrite

 

 

Guilliman was a better choice. Horus may be the most charismatic and ambitious one but he was too sentimental. Guilliman, even after his father and many of his brothers lied dead, managed to recover Imperium from shambles.

 

Guilliman turned the gory that was the Imperium of man into the dying cancer that it is today, if the Ultramarines were not that numerous because of their lack of participation in the defense of Terra or the Drop site massacre. he wouldn't convince anyone to follow him

 

there was still 2 paths taht the Imperium could have gone, one to continue the glory and two, the path to ruination that Guilliaman took.

it was his hubris that made him think that he was better than the Emperor that his way is better than the path that the Emperor had wanted to take humanity

[Gunslinger87]

To your question, no. However, just as Curze and Corax were unseen killers, Khan was the Blitzkreig and Dorn and Perturabo were seige masters, so too did Horus have his unrivalled skill.

 

His was that of a leader - of an heir to the Imperium.

 

He was Warmaster not because he could out-master his brothers in any aspect, but because his one aspect was to be master of his brothers. Despite his words to Sanguinus, he was truly his father's son - Sanguinus shared the spirit, but it was Horus who held the vision. And it was the vision that allowed the Emperor to achieve so much, for was it not his vision of the galaxy united that led to the Great Crusade?

 

Sorry, I don't get to wax poetic about Horus very often, but pre-Heresy he was one of the few truly worthy primarchs :(

 

 

Horus was not THE leader his skill was not in leading, it was in being a politician.

all the Primarchs are leaders but he was the best politician among the brothers, to be able to convince his brothers that his goal and his way was the right one and to allow compromises when others might not.

to basically be a snake and hypocrite

 

 

Guilliman was a better choice. Horus may be the most charismatic and ambitious one but he was too sentimental. Guilliman, even after his father and many of his brothers lied dead, managed to recover Imperium from shambles.

 

Guilliman turned the gory that was the Imperium of man into the dying cancer that it is today, if the Ultramarines were not that numerous because of their lack of participation in the defense of Terra or the Drop site massacre. he wouldn't convince anyone to follow him

 

there was still 2 paths taht the Imperium could have gone, one to continue the glory and two, the path to ruination that Guilliaman took.

it was his hubris that made him think that he was better than the Emperor that his way is better than the path that the Emperor had wanted to take humanity

 

Well, we don't know really... I wont go into the sources that say that without him there probably wouldnt be an imperium at all. However, if it was actually his fault and not the decay and degeneration of his ideas, how in the world would you have wanted the imperium to continue on the path the Emperor wanted? At the very least, there was now an equally dangerous opposing faction to take into account. The Great Crusade would have been completely different had the Hive fleets arrived 10.000 years earlier. the state the imperium is at today can hardly be attributed to Guilliman. Thats just Ultra-hate at its extreme.

[Billuriye]

Guilliman turned the gory that was the Imperium of man into the dying cancer that it is today, if the Ultramarines were not that numerous because of their lack of participation in the defense of Terra or the Drop site massacre. he wouldn't convince anyone to follow him

 

there was still 2 paths taht the Imperium could have gone, one to continue the glory and two, the path to ruination that Guilliaman took.

it was his hubris that made him think that he was better than the Emperor that his way is better than the path that the Emperor had wanted to take humanity

 

The path to ruination was taken by Horus not Guilliman. Guilliman may have prolonged the inevitable but it was not for him Imperium would be no more. Crafting an Imperium lasting for 10k+ years is no small feat.

I don't see how hubris has to do with anything. He did exactly what would Emperor expect of him. In fact he was the only one carrying the torch while his brothers were too caught up by their hurting emotions.

[Valkyrion]

Actually, the whole Empire in ruins thing was wrought by the Alpha Legion. Or was it?

 

The Alpha Legion's bag was the maintaining of the flaws of humanity. The choice before them was to side with Horus and kill mankind within a generation, thus saving the galaxy, or to side with the Emperor and ensure ten thousand years of war. They chose Horus, but did they fail, or succeed?

 

Everything that the Imperium is now is a direct result of what the Alpha Legion did (or didn't do) during the rest of the Heresy, so if anything modern 40k is Alpharius' ideal, not Guillimans.

[MagicMan]

Horus was the Heroic Leader.

 

 

He was Richard the Lionhearted, he was Alexander the great.

 

He was a superlative warrior, a master strategist, and a superb leader of men. He inspired adoration and love, he lead by example. He would walk into the fire and his men would follow, not out of duty, but out of devotion. He used his skills to inspire and lead others, to bend others to his will when he fell to damnation, i suppose that could be called politics.

 

He was essentially unmatchable charisma, allied to a peerless battlefield leader.

 

 

 

I think Roboute is often a good ''other side of the coin'' for Horus. He lacked in charisma/passion but made up for in logic, Roboute couldn't have led a rebellion in the same way that Horus could. He could have organised it, sure, he could have fought it. But he didn't inspire that same fanatical fealty that Horus did.

 

As the Romans said, Horus had the look of Eagles.

[Valkyrion]

He looked more like Ray Winstone if The Primarchs artwork is to be believed....

[Captain Semper]

Horus was the Heroic Leader.

 

 

He was Richard the Lionhearted, he was Alexander the great.

 

He was a superlative warrior, a master strategist, and a superb leader of men. He inspired adoration and love, he lead by example. He would walk into the fire and his men would follow, not out of duty, but out of devotion. He used his skills to inspire and lead others, to bend others to his will when he fell to damnation, i suppose that could be called politics.

 

He was essentially unmatchable charisma, allied to a peerless battlefield leader.

 

 

 

I think Roboute is often a good ''other side of the coin'' for Horus. He lacked in charisma/passion but made up for in logic, Roboute couldn't have led a rebellion in the same way that Horus could. He could have organised it, sure, he could have fought it. But he didn't inspire that same fanatical fealty that Horus did.

 

As the Romans said, Horus had the look of Eagles.

 

That. Nothing more to be said.

 

BTW do all Primarchs have their "other side of the coin"? Marshal Wilhelm put forward some: Horus-Guilliman, Dorn-Perturabo, Sanguinius-Angron, Khan-Russ (although in the latter pair they are both loyalists). Who would the Lion or Lorgar pair with? (each other maybe)

 

What do you people think? Can all Primarchs be paired as two sides of the same coin? Or just some?

[Billuriye]

I agree that Horus was the best to lead and conquer but being a warmaster required more than that. We see Horus stressing under various administrative work, tax demands and bureaucratic stuff. Couple that with his frictions with his brothers, doubts about himself and Emperor, massive ego, inferiority complex and you have a "meh" warmaster.

[MagicMan]

You have a fantastic Warmaster, you just have a poor Bureaucracy master.

 

Maybe Guilliman should have been left to run that side of things, he might've relished the challenge.

[Greyall]

I don't think the Primarchs are supposed to be perfect pairs, which makes sense seeing as the universe of 40K plays with "realistic" randomness quite well. Don't forget, all Primarchs are big on strategy (well, there's Angron, you might argue, but he chose 'Pile on them!' as his strategy, and it worked), great warriors and very charismatic - humanly speaking (in this case, Perturabo might be an exception).

 

For example, I think the Alpha and Omega twins might be closer to Guilliman than to Corax, seeing as strategy is their strong point. But look at Fulgrim...he was also exceptionaly good in military strategy and troop discipline, which makes him a contender for Guilliman's "place" as well. In terms of personality, however, he would be closer to Dorn, both very close and liked by the Emperor. As was Horus. This is an opinion, of course, so it's debatable, but I think it shows some of the aforementioned realism that makes 40K so interesting.

 

Another example: Angron and Sanguinius? Sure, both of them were brutal in the melee department, but then they're so different that pairing them seems strange...Angron loved melee units and charging head-on, while Sangy was, I believe, much more tame and rational in the strategic department.

 

Each Primarch is a part of the Emperor, and that's the only pattern I think makes true sense.

 

Horus finds no real match among his brothers. The Khan was better at blietzkrieging, Corax was stealthier, Angron's guys were ferotious enough to disgust any Luna Wolf, etc. But no one surpassed him as a leader. And since the best leaders command by example, this means his real match was the Emperor, marking him as a true heir. Of course, being a Primarch, he was also an overtly egotistical, capricious guy.

[Valkyrion]

You have a fantastic Warmaster, you just have a poor Bureaucracy master.

 

Maybe Guilliman should have been left to run that side of things, he might've relished the challenge.

 

Had all gone to plan that was probably the idea. When all mankind was finally united, Dorn would have been the bodyguard, Guilliman the President, Horus the General. Its partly explains why so many were quick to join horus - in an almost war free galaxy, what does Angron do? or Lorgar?

 

I suppose the same could be said about Sanguinius, Corax and most of the loyalist primarchs too. The Emperor definitely had a plan for Magnus. Perhaps the rest of the primarchs and legions would have been used to invade the webway.

 

 

Re the two sides of the same coin thing... The Blood Angels have become loyalist World Eaters in 40k. In 30k they were nothing alike. The World Eaters are Space Wolves in 30k.