Was Horus really all That BadAss...?

[Walter Payton]

Guilliman was a better choice. Horus may be the most charismatic and ambitious one but he was too sentimental. Guilliman, even after his father and many of his brothers lied dead, managed to recover Imperium from shambles.

 

I'm not sure that is fair. Guilliman might not have fallen for exactly the same reason as Horus (had he been in Horus's shoes), but that isn't to say he might not have fallen for some other reason.

 

He might not even have fallen to Chaos, but simply, like Caesar, crossed the Rubicon.

 

massive ego, inferiority complex

 

Wait, what? :P

 

I don't think it was the bureacracy that got to Horus; he could have delegated or ignored that. What got to him was the enormity of the task he had been given, coupled to the Emperor's (perceived or actual, let's not start another debate) indifference towards him and inscrutability. Perhaps this might have broken Guilliman too; we cannot know for certain because it didn't happen.

 

-------------------------

 

@Valkyrion

 

An ideal Imperial cabinet, I imagine, would be:

 

Emperor - The Emperor

 

Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer - Guilliman

 

Minister of War - Horus

 

Minister for the Elderley - Malcador the Sigillite

 

Minister of the Interior and Public Works - Rogal Dorn

 

Minister of Education - Kelbor-Hal

 

Minister without Portfolio - Alpharius Omegon

 

-------------------------

 

MagicMan got it right. Horus indeed had the look of Eagles.

 

He was a close combat boss too, or course. He did strangle Sanguinius with his bare hands and crush the Emperor's spine, although he did have unholy assistance.

[Mac the knife]

Horus from what i understood was the charismatic leader and his legion excelled at what Astartes do best. They found and chopped off the head of the enemy letting the body die.

 

Guilliman was the logistician of the primarchs. Efficient, humble and did what was asked.

 

World Eaters and Space Wolves aren't imho the same in 30k. Both were ferocious but while the WE were raving lunatics on the battle field mowing down entire armies. the Space Wolves were the Emperor's sanction. Psychic resistent, fierce and viewed as barbaric (IE simple minded) which gave them an advantage because they used their enemies underestimation against them.

 

Blood Angels and Emperor's Children are the mirrors of each other pre heresy in my opinion. though we'll see more when the BA get some attention in the HH. I always saw the two as that appreciated and valued civilization and artistic expression.

 

Corax and the Night Haunter might be mirrors of one another but each have their own take on stealth. haven't seen enough of either during the heresy to say for sure.

 

I won't speak to the others until there is more written about each of them.

[Billuriye]

I'm not sure that is fair. Guilliman might not have fallen for exactly the same reason as Horus (had he been in Horus's shoes), but that isn't to say he might not have fallen for some other reason.

 

He might not even have fallen to Chaos, but simply, like Caesar, crossed the Rubicon.

 

Wait, what?

 

I don't think it was the bureacracy that got to Horus; he could have delegated or ignored that. What got to him was the enormity of the task he had been given, coupled to the Emperor's (perceived or actual, let's not start another debate) indifference towards him and inscrutability. Perhaps this might have broken Guilliman too; we cannot know for certain because it didn't happen.

 

Well, that makes sense actually.

[Legatus]

Actually Guilliman did have a similar position and responsibility as Horus at some point. During the scouring he acted as the overall commander of the imperial armed forces. It did not seem to trouble him, though you could say that after having just suffered through the Horus Heresy it was now extremely unlikely that Chaos would get to him or any of the remaining loyal Primarchs. For that reason the situation can not quite be compared to when Horus was made Warmaster.

 

In "Angels of Darkness" Astelan claims that Horus was better than Guilliman in all respects (which was probably the passage Saa was remembering) but that Guilliman is still remembered ten thousand years later as the shining example of a Primarch because other than Horus he had learned incorruptability during his upbringing. Now, that was a "Fallen Angel" claiming that, but at least he himself was convinced of what he had said, and it was not some deceptive ploy. He could still be wrong or have only a limited perspective, of course. For example, he is entirely incorrect and misjudging about what he had heard about Jonson.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

This makes sense, but there is also fluff describing Guilliman in the same terms, which seems odd.

Well, if there are two siege masters, two sneaky ones, etc., then perhaps there can be two allrounder visionairies who would rally half their brothers and shape their future for the following millennia. But as with the other duos, one of them would be remembered as a terrible tyrant and would be eternally infamous as a result of his actions. And the other one was Horus.

 

Zing! Touché

A hit, a palpable hit :huh:

 

I do think they are a pairing to be honest. But Horus is the more charismatic of the two, and Guilliman is more honest and a yeoman in his approach.

 

Obviously Dorn and Perturabo are the Seige masters.

 

Sanguinius and Angron are another pair. This time, the loyalist gets to be the beautiful one, whilst Angron is 'efficient' one.

 

Then Khan and Russ are a pair. But nicely, Russ has two other buddies. The Lion and Magnus. Leman Russ, forever the obstropolous one :) Yes, WLK, I wrote that for you B)

 

your a mess.

 

WLK

[karden00]

The way I always saw things was that Horus was simply the best. If Khan was master of blitz, Horus could do it too, but with at least an ounce of betterness. If Dorn and Pertaburo got buddy buddy and built a tree fort, Horus could find a way to knock it down. You get my point. I get the sense though that as current canon would have it, each of the Primarchs, IF they were noted to have a specialty in a particular aspect of warfare, were unsurpassed in this respect? Even including Horus? So, is that the right or it, as you guys see it, or was Horus top dog in everything?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Woah, didn't mean to spark that :) As Magicman said, Horus was a better leader than Guillemann, but Guillemann was a much better organiser. The two of them together could run the Imperium much better than either by themselves, at least, IMHO.

[MagicMan]

The way I always saw things was that Horus was simply the best. If Khan was master of blitz, Horus could do it too, but with at least an ounce of betterness. If Dorn and Pertaburo got buddy buddy and built a tree fort, Horus could find a way to knock it down. You get my point. I get the sense though that as current canon would have it, each of the Primarchs, IF they were noted to have a specialty in a particular aspect of warfare, were unsurpassed in this respect? Even including Horus? So, is that the right or it, as you guys see it, or was Horus top dog in everything?

 

 

 

 

Im thinking Horus scores an average 9 across the board, with a 10 in heroic leadership.

 

 

 

Its possible that the other guys score the same, with a 10 in their prefferred field. But i think their scores would vary.

 

 

Anyway, point being, the Khan probably could out-blitz Horus, but Horus would match or outdo him in most other aspects of being a warrior/general. He was the first Primarch for a reason.

[Tezzy]

All these theories would work if all of the Primarchs had left earth at once with their legions and had not been whisked away.

 

Horus was found first remember? There was a spell of crusading which included just the Emperor and our Lupercal as they began the great ambition for humanity.

 

Of course if this was say Lorgar or Night Haunter then it may not have been them to be the Warmaster due to their specific make up but to have one of the big leader-Primarchs (Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius,) be there from the start then he will be the one as revered, the first amongst Primarchs.

 

Horus was a leader, a politician and a hero, as were all the Primarchs in their own way but none had the kind of X-Factor that Horus had because he was the Emperor's chosen son.

 

The Emperor had plans for all of them remember, Magnus and Horus especially, he would have taken the Great Crusade into it's second phase from the Golden Throne had Chaos not ruined everything by corrupting the human aspect of each traitor Primarch's character.

[The Emperor's Champion]

(speaking in relative Primarch terms) Horus wasn't particularly uber at anything except being a charismatic leader who people were willing to follow. In all other aspects he seems to have been somewhere in the better than average range.

Speaking in human terms, yes, he was awesome at everything.

 

As far as I can tell, Horus and Guilliman were only a few degrees different, to be honest.

Horus was a supreme leader through charisma, with people admiring and worshiping him as a hero, and willing to follow him into any battle. Guilliman was a supreme leader by being incredibly diplomatic and by being a tactical and logistical genius.

In everything else, both were good at what they did, but a couple notches down from the best.

 

They'd be better than most Primarchs in a siege, but not as good as Dorn or Perturabo.

They'd be better than most Primarchs at hit and run night fighting, but not as good as Corax or Curze.

They'd be better than most Primarchs in a melee, but not as good as Russ, Angron, Sanguinius or Fulgrim.

etc

etc

[MagicMan]

I think TEC has the right idea, besides the Melee, Horus is stated numerous times to be up there with Sanguinius on the top pedestal.

 

 

It doesn't mean he'd wipe the floor with other Primarchs or that he'd win every time, but he is one of the melee monsters.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I think TEC has the right idea, besides the Melee, Horus is stated numerous times to be up there with Sanguinius on the top pedestal.

 

 

It doesn't mean he'd wipe the floor with other Primarchs or that he'd win every time, but he is one of the melee monsters.

I don't think so. He wasn't much better than Alpharius, and Alpharius seems to have been on the low end. And actually, I can't think of a single instance in which Horus was said to be a combat monster, aside from at the end when he was possessed by the 4 Chaos Gods and murdered Sanguinius and fought The Emperor, but that wasn't really Horus.

[karden00]

I believe in the Index Astartes it states how Sanguinius, even at the peak of his abilities, would be no match for Horus (granted, he is Chaos augmented at this point) and that by the time he found the Big H on his battle barge, weakened as he was by fighting his way there, he simply had no chance. But he fought anyway. I always did take it that Sanguinius was the top dog in a fight, which is why it took Horus to beat him.

[MagicMan]

I can't remember a single quote that placed him on par with Alpharius...?

 

 

 

 

If you're read any of the Horus Heresy books you'll find many instances where Horus is shown to be a superlative warrior.

 

Im not going to go through and fish out all the quotes for the sake of this discussion but :

 

The war on Murder

The fight aboard Eugan Temba's flagship

The battle with the Interex

 

That aside, Horus was the Primarch of the strongest Legion. To be an adequate soldier amongst the Luna Wolves was to be exemplary in any other Legion. It stands to reason that, moulded in his image, their Primarch would bear these qualities. First amongst primarchs for a reason, and a real charmer with the ladies... Its a mans life in the Emperor's Legions.

[Billuriye]

I don't think so. He wasn't much better than Alpharius, and Alpharius seems to have been on the low end. And actually, I can't think of a single instance in which Horus was said to be a combat monster, aside from at the end when he was possessed by the 4 Chaos Gods and murdered Sanguinius and fought The Emperor, but that wasn't really Horus.

 

Nope. Corax said Horus, Sanguinius, Angron are top tier fighters. Albeit indirectly. Though psyker primarchs seem to have upper hand against non psyker ones. So Sanguinius is probably > Horus.

[Legatus]

I distinctly remember Horus being said to be the best strategist, tactician and fighter, but I could not find it in any of the Chaos Codices and IA articles I looked, so perhaps I misemembered or got that mixed up somewhere.

[MagicMan]

There was a quote somewhere about his knowledge of peoples characters enabling him to use each legion like a lesser commander uses squads under his command.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I distinctly remember Horus being said to be the best strategist, tactician and fighter, but I could not find it in any of the Chaos Codices and IA articles I looked, so perhaps I misemembered or got that mixed up somewhere.

 

I'm thinking it would be before the IA articles, and after the Seige of Terra piece written by William King. So that is only over 100 White Dwarfs to trawl through :P

[Heru2012]

I always believed that the Primarchs are kind of twinned up, but some had different tweaks to them. Kind of like their respective counterpart but with an added flaw. If you look at the list below it kind of shows:

 

Corax/Night Haunter: Both masters of subtlety but Conrad believed you needed them to fear you, so he became a weapon of savage fear.

 

Sanguinius/Fulgrim: Both of them were extreme patrons of civilisation and the artistic, whilst Sanguisnius was humble, Fulgrim was full of pride and consumed by frustration when he was lacking.

 

Dorn/Perturabo: Both masters of seige, but where Dorn saw it as an honour to make the Emperors palace unbreakable, Peturabo is apathetic, seeing himself as being treated like a guard, smashing down peoples castles to show he could, nothing more.

 

This one people may not agree with me on, but if we go by flaws it works.

 

Horus/Jonson: Both master strategists and logistical gods, but whereas Horus is an ultimately empathic leader, reading people to use his charisma to get them to do things they think they want to do, Jonson, as shown in the DA books, is the least empathic or charismatic of all. Jonson is almost bordering on/well past the point of autism. He is tricked by people just by them saying "I'm your friend" (Peturabo), doesn't like talking, in his own words can calculate hyperspace doo das and whatnots in milleseconds, but is just oblivious to the human condition.

 

Guilliman/Alpharius & Omegon: Guilliman was an amazing tactician, he wrote the codex, he was a mini Emperor, but he was the equivalent of a General in a modern army. But whilst he was the hammer, Alpharius/Omegon were the smoke. They were the essence of unconventional warfare, special forces, infiltration. Guilliman was a great tactician but he just didn't think outside of the box, which probably kept him loyal, whilst A/O were just sneaky. Where Guilliman would defend a world because it's what he'd do, because it has lots of resources, armies etc, A/O would infiltrate a minor world with no protection because it didn't warrant it, only to produce pawns for later use. Like I said, its like using a hammer to hit smoke.

 

Magnus/Russ: I know, maybe clutching at straws on this one but hear me out. Magnus was eveything Russ wasn't. Magnus was a scholar, a dreamer, a warrior of finesse. Russ was a warrior of superstition, ferocity and hard facts. Look at the mirrors of their homeworlds. Prospero, extremely hostile except for Tzisca, with psychic creatures hostile to life outside its golden walls, but inside a shining beacon of knowledge, grand libraries and magic. Fenris, hostile to human life except in the Fang, a dark cavernous mountain of caves, darkness, no written word, just storytellers regailing sagas of lost heroes and villains. Last of all, no magic, as magic is warp based, they use runes and superstitions. Magnus would question, which you would think would be good but left him in the end up the creek without a paddle, while Russ was the Emperors right hand, he would follow orders with extreme prejudice. (Maybe due to the wolf thing, the Emperor beating him when he met proved he was not the alpha, and because of that he did what he was told. Horus had no control because Russ knew who the boss was.)

 

As for the others, I'm tired, I may post later but if someone else wants to have a go that's cool!

 

Oh and as my first I offer thee greetings and hope to be involved in many discussions to come.

 

Edited because after reading this morning I found I had the spelling of a 5 year old due to sleepy tiredness.

[Arkangilos]

I always believed that the Primarchs are kind of twinned up, but some had different tweaks to them. Kind of like their respective counterpart but with an added flaw. If you look at the list below it kind of shows:

 

Corax/Night Haunter: Both masters of subtlety but Conrad believed you needed them to fear you, so he became o weapon as heck savage fear.

 

Sanguinius/Fulgrim: Both of them were extreme patrons of civilisation and the artistic, whilst Sanguisnius was humble, Fulgrim was full of pride and consumed by frustration when he was lacking.

 

Dorn/Perturabo: Both masters of seige, but where Dorn saw it as an honour to make the Emperors palace unbreakable, Peturabo is apathetic, seeing himself as being treated like a guard, smashing down people castle to show he could, nothing more.

 

This one people may not agree with me on, but if we go by flaws it works.

 

Horus/Jonson: Both master strategists and logistical gods, but whereas Horus is an ultimately empathic leader, reading people to use his charisma to get them to do things they think they want to do, Jonson, as shown in the DA books, is the least empathic or charismatic of all. Jonson is almost bordering on/well past the point of autism. He is tricked by people just by them saying "I'm your friend" (Peturabo), doesn't like talking, in his own words can calculate hyperspace doo das and whatnots in milleseconds, but is just oblivious to the human condition.

 

Guilliman/Alpharius & Omegon: Guilliman was an amazing tactician, he wrote the codex, he was a mini Emperor, but he was the equivalent of a General in a modern army. But whilst he was the hammer, Alpharius/Omegon were the smoke. They were the essence of unconventional warfare, special forces, infiltration. Guilliman was a great tactician but he just didn't think outside of the box, which probably kept him loyal, whilst A/O were just sneaky. Where Guilliman would defend a world because it's what he'd do, because it has lots of resources, armies etc, A/O would infiltrate a minor world with no protection because it didn't warrant it, only to produce pawns for later use. Like I said, its like using a hammer to hit smoke.

 

Magnus/Russ: I know, maybe clutching at straws on this one but hear me out. Magnus was eveything Russ wasn't. Magnus was a scholar, a dreamer, a warrior of finesse. Russ was a warrior of superstition, ferocity and hard facts. Look at the mirrors of their homeworlds. Prospero, extremely hostile except for Tzisca, with psychic creatures hostile to life outside its golden walls, but inside a shining beacon of knowledge, grand libraries and magic. Fenris, hostile to human life except in the Fang, a dark cavernous mountain of caves, darkness, no written word, just storytellers regailing sagas of lost heroes and villains. Last of all, no magic, as magic is warp based, they use runes and superstitions. Magnus would question, which you would think would be good but left him in the end up the creek without a paddle, while Russ was the Emperors right hand, he would follow orders with extreme prejudice. (Maybe due to the wolf thing, the Emperor beating him when he met proved he was not the alpha, and because of that he did what he was told. Horus had no control because Russ knew who the boss was.)

 

As for the others, I'm tired, I may post later but if someone else wants to have a go that's cool!

 

Oh and as my first I offer thee greetings and hope to be involved in many discussions to come.

 

^ This.

 

Also, I remember a quote from somewhere saying that the Luna Wolves were the best offense, and if he were to attack Dorn, they would be locked in an eternal stalemate.

I also remember a quote from somewhere that the only primarchs that could beat Angron would be Sanguinius and Horus.

[Brother Ambroz]

The quote didn't say beat Angron merely on the same level. That's from the Raven's Flight by the way.

[Sons of Horus]

Is Horus awesome? OF COURSE HE IS!! :tu:

 

I pretty much agree with TEC except Horus was actually a close combat monster. Every piece of fluff about him says so.

[Pulse]

Horus was a supreme leader through charisma, with people admiring and worshiping him as a hero, and willing to follow him into any battle. Guilliman was a supreme leader by being incredibly diplomatic and by being a tactical and logistical genius.

All of the Primarchs were tacitcal genius' according to fluff...

 

All of the Primarchs would be good at logistics, wouldn't have got far without it.

 

Guilliman was better at organisation, or i should say he paid more heed to organisation than the other Primarchs.

[Billuriye]

Mantle of tactical genius is tossed around amongst Lion, Guilliman, Horus and even Dorn (Maybe Alpharius too). I think it belongs to Lion though. The guy gotta have something. Being broody, secretive and knighty does not cut it.

[Captain Semper]

I'm afraid there is no exclusitivity on the "who's the best strategist" niche. Guilliman? The Lion? Horus? Dorn? Alpharius? Everybody else? The answer is that the tactical/strategic genious is a shared attribute among all Primarchs, they just each have a preferred style. In fact a lot of niches are overlapping: who's the best in melee? Every single Primarch is known to be an expert either through brutal force or elegant swordfighting - or anything between the two.

 

Now the Lion may have an edge on strategic genous IF you measure it with the ratio (campaigns won)/(time the Primarch is active). But it is a matter of definition really because there could be qualitative elements that the above ratio does not capture. If you say that all campaigns of all Primarchs average out to a certain average difficulty then this is a valid way to look at things. If however a Primarch has consistently won more "difficult" campaigns then this ratio is meaningless. Then again how could one assign a difficulty level on a campaign? Ask the Wolves and you're in for the saga of your life!

 

Anyway for me, best strategist: THE LION!