Was Horus really all That BadAss...?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Guilliman should of been the man for the job, he alone was able to forge an empire that was second only to the Luna wolves and Horus was only able to do so because he was dadies favorite, the blood angels Sanginius (although truly an awsome and epic character) was a mutant and just because he had wings and was angel like does not mean he was a suitable warmaster, the ultimate martyr yes but commander no. Horus was easily played upon by a foreign legions chaplian, granted Horus was charismatic and used this to sway others who would depose their farther but his approach was even ......well moronic at times.

 

Horus was also noble (granted he was stabbed with an interex weapon of immense power which may of been a Primarch killer and it was chaos that rejuvinated him) but he was allowed to be rejuvianted and led astray because he felt his farther was betraying mankind and trying to become a god. he opposed this blinded by chaos. but to him it must of been an epic decision, the be the beloved son of a demi god, loved more that the others, and to go to war with him none the less.

[Brother Ambroz]

Where is this fluff that Guilliman was second only to Horus' legion? I've never seen that. How was Horus able to win EVERY battle until Terra because he was "daddies" favorite? You have absolutely no way of knowing whether Guilliman may have crumbled under similar circumstances either. Who knows he might have crumbled faster?

[No Foes Remain]

It is said in fluff that the Ultramarines conqued more worlds and left them in a better state more than any other legion apart from the Luna Wolves, and thats in the SM 5th ed codex on page 13. Well something along those lines.

[Brother Ambroz]

Ok if a Ward codex is a fluff reference I'm just going to say nevermind that point, don't want to start a fire.

 

The other point though, Horus was Warmaster because he never lost (until Terra) and he was very very charasmatic.

[Brother Immolator]

Yeah Horus was that awesome in his abilities that he got puppeteered by a space marine,not a deamon not a fellow primarch but a space marine.

Horus was selected as warmaster by the boss because 1)he was his favorite,2)he was as ambitious as himself,3)he was the one that he had spend most time with and had a better bond of shorts with.Yes he was a politician supreme and a good commander but so were other primarchs.

 

Sanquinius might have been a mutant but he was the best of them all.His soul was not tarnished,he was honest and compassionate.He was not driven by personal gains but by a faith to the emperors vision and what of will become of the imperium and its people.

A good king that cares not for his subjects but expands his domains only oblivious to their plight is not a good king at all--Advice given by Diogenis when he met Alexander the Great before the starting of his conquests.That sums up sanguinious i believe and that would have happened if he was warmaster.

 

As for the deteriorating state of the imperium and guillimans part in it.Well he did started it.He broke the greatest military force in the galaxy with the toilet Dex!One fatal flaw of the Codex is the splitting up of the legions and maintaining a maximum of 1000 battle brothers at any given time, this made the Space Marines even more of a fragmented force concerned with their own agendas than a unified fighting force along with making it longer for them to rebuild and reform whenever they sustain heavy casualties after a major campaign.Not to mention that this form of administration and issolation puts them at odd not only with the administratum but with the other chapters as well.

 

And if you want to question the fact that he had ulterior motives consider this:He nearly started a second civil war before the emperors corpse grew cold!If it wasnt for Dorns stoic nature even when his ship was fired upon we would have another schism.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah Horus was that awesome in his abilities that he got puppeteered by a space marine,not a deamon not a fellow primarch but a space marine.

 

Sorry but that's so out of context. Erebus didn't start whispering in Horus' ear until after he had been mortally injured and healed by chaos. Yes the other primarchs were as well but he was the best.

[Legatus]

It is said in fluff that the Ultramarines conqued more worlds and left them in a better state more than any other legion apart from the Luna Wolves, and thats in the SM 5th ed codex on page 13. Well something along those lines.

FYI, the fluff states that Guilliman liberated more worlds than any other primarchs (including Horus). This comes originally from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines (p. 12), a lot of which had been reprinted in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. Other sources say that Horus, Jonson and Russ had the highest number of victories. That may seem to be a contradiction of sources, but then not every victory would result in a liberated world. E.g. destroying an alien fleet or an alien planet would count as a victory, but would not as a liberated world.

 

 

As for the deteriorating state of the imperium and guillimans part in it.Well he did started it.He broke the greatest military force in the galaxy with the toilet Dex!One fatal flaw of the Codex is the splitting up of the legions and maintaining a maximum of 1000 battle brothers at any given time

The decision was so bad that the Imperium has only managed to survive for 10,000 years so far. If Guilliman hadn't divided the Legion, the Imperium would have certainly survived for 100,000 years by now. Unless there had been another Heresy. That would have sucked.

[Wysten]

Yeah Horus was that awesome in his abilities that he got puppeteered by a space marine,not a deamon not a fellow primarch but a space marine.

Horus was selected as warmaster by the boss because 1)he was his favorite,2)he was as ambitious as himself,3)he was the one that he had spend most time with and had a better bond of shorts with.Yes he was a politician supreme and a good commander but so were other primarchs.

 

Sanquinius might have been a mutant but he was the best of them all.His soul was not tarnished,he was honest and compassionate.He was not driven by personal gains but by a faith to the emperors vision and what of will become of the imperium and its people.

A good king that cares not for his subjects but expands his domains only oblivious to their plight is not a good king at all--Advice given by Diogenis when he met Alexander the Great before the starting of his conquests.That sums up sanguinious i believe and that would have happened if he was warmaster.

 

As for the deteriorating state of the imperium and guillimans part in it.Well he did started it.He broke the greatest military force in the galaxy with the toilet Dex!One fatal flaw of the Codex is the splitting up of the legions and maintaining a maximum of 1000 battle brothers at any given time, this made the Space Marines even more of a fragmented force concerned with their own agendas than a unified fighting force along with making it longer for them to rebuild and reform whenever they sustain heavy casualties after a major campaign.Not to mention that this form of administration and issolation puts them at odd not only with the administratum but with the other chapters as well.

 

And if you want to question the fact that he had ulterior motives consider this:He nearly started a second civil war before the emperors corpse grew cold!If it wasnt for Dorns stoic nature even when his ship was fired upon we would have another schism.

 

 

I disagree with the statement about Guilliman. The entire reason the horus heresy occured, is was that the legions simply had too much power. This was proven, during the Horus heresy when the swaying of several primarchs, caused a gigantic cival war. It did not help that the high lords, and humanty in general feared a cival war occuring again. No one trusted the space marines and rightfully so, half of them arruptly defected and nearly destoryed the imperium in a few short years and rendered the strongest man in the imperium practically dead.

 

The action taken to spilt the legions into chapters made absolute sense. Each chapter would have the resources nessiary to complete their mission and would be guided by superiour tactians that are indifferent to the chapters cause during times of crusiade/trouble, but also make them retain their independance and effectiveness without the probablity of a second Horus heresy occuring down the line and making any fall of a chapter relatively isolated. So we only get 1000 marines falling, as aposed to entire legions.

 

It may have been more effective, just theres no true way to combat chaos, only to delay it.

[Pulse]

FYI, the fluff states that Guilliman liberated more worlds than any other primarchs (including Horus). This comes originally from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines (p. 12), a lot of which had been reprinted in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. Other sources say that Horus, Jonson and Russ had the highest number of victories. That may seem to be a contradiction of sources, but then not every victory would result in a liberated world. E.g. destroying an alien fleet or an alien planet would count as a victory, but would not as a liberated world.

History is written by the victors, not by the clean up crew.

 

If the HH hadn't happened thats all people would be talking about, how amazing Horus' victory tally was compared to the other Primarchs and Legions, not much focus on how many worlds were put into Imperial order.

[Legatus]

Guilliman having liberated the most worlds is not "all people are talking about". It is described in the sources about Roboute Guilliman. Even if the Heresy hadn't happened and Horus would still be Warmaster, sources about Roboute Guilliman would still point out that he had liberated the most worlds.

[Pulse]

Guilliman having liberated the most worlds is not "all people are talking about". It is described in the sources about Roboute Guilliman. Even if the Heresy hadn't happened and Horus would still be Warmaster, sources about Roboute Guilliman would still point out that he had liberated the most worlds.

As with warriors, reputation counts and that comes through winning battles.

 

Although Guilliman would have the tally for most worlds "liberated", Horus' reputation for victories would have made Guilliman look average on the battlefield - it is just the way of war unfortunately the bold always stand out and get the attention.

[Legatus]

But we are told that Horus had the most victories. And in a volume that is specifically about the history of the Ultramarines, we are told that Roboute Guilliman had liberated the most worlds. Nothing would be different if Horus would still be a loya Warmaster.

[Captain Semper]

Yeah Horus was that awesome in his abilities that he got puppeteered by a space marine,not a deamon not a fellow primarch but a space marine.

 

Sorry but that's so out of context. Erebus didn't start whispering in Horus' ear until after he had been mortally injured and healed by chaos. Yes the other primarchs were as well but he was the best.

 

Sorry, are you saying that Erebus did not influnece Horus before we was mortally wounded? Really? This sounds so crazy to me that I come to the conclusion that I probably misread you...

[Brother Ambroz]

No I am not. But what Erebus was doing before Horus was injured was mostly an advisory role. After is when he really turned. Trying to say anything else sounds crazy.

[Captain Semper]

No I am not.

 

Good, that's settled then.

 

But what Erebus was doing before Horus was injured was mostly an advisory role. After is when he really turned. Trying to say anything else sounds crazy.

 

This boils down to the use of the term "puppeteering". Did Erebus had a more direct control over Horus after the latter became wounded? Sure did. But Horus also acted under Erebus' influence and guidance before that. In fact it could be said that Erebus manipulated Horus as early as Davin first expedition -a good 60 years earlier than the events that led to Horus wounding... Was it subtle? Yes. But Horus did dance to Erebus tune without knowing for some time. Hence, in my view, the term "puppeteering" applies.

[Brother Immolator]

I disagree with the statement about Guilliman. The entire reason the horus heresy occured, is was that the legions simply had too much power. This was proven, during the Horus heresy when the swaying of several primarchs, caused a gigantic cival war. It did not help that the high lords, and humanty in general feared a cival war occuring again. No one trusted the space marines and rightfully so, half of them arruptly defected and nearly destoryed the imperium in a few short years and rendered the strongest man in the imperium practically dead.

 

The action taken to spilt the legions into chapters made absolute sense. Each chapter would have the resources necessary to complete their mission and would be guided by superiour tactians that are indifferent to the chapters cause during times of crusiade/trouble, but also make them retain their independance and effectiveness without the probablity of a second Horus heresy occuring down the line and making any fall of a chapter relatively isolated. So we only get 1000 marines falling, as aposed to entire legions.

 

It may have been more effective, just theres no true way to combat chaos, only to delay it.

 

 

If you consider the chapters effective consider the death toll it took them to contain and repel the ork invasions of armaggedon.Durring the crusade a single legion would conquer ork empires without problem.Now a coalition of the best known chapters with support from titan legions and the imperial guard barely won due to having the luck of been graced by the three of the most tactically adept men of the imperium.Helbrecht,Yarick,Dante and Logan.

And those victories came at a terrible cost.Prior to the heresy the legions took vaster enemies in their own turf non the less and emerged victorious.

Hell they even destroyed entire races.Now all they do is find retaliatory actions and escort the odd crusade fleet.And we see how well they did on that in the damocles gulf(yes UM i am looking at you).A fighting organization that has its assets separated into a thousand different pieces fighting a thousand different wars reporting to a thousand different commanders is a logistical and organizational nightmare.

Also the heresy didnt occur because of the SM legions,it occurred because of corruption.Before horus turned it was unthinkable for a marine to turn against his brothers and the emperor.Horus convinced them to turn because the emperor was a fool and could not perceive that his tools of war might be super humans,but were humans non the less and they had pride.Horus played with their pride just as Erebus played with his.Nothing more nothing less.

Also let me remind you that the desolation of the legions the number of chapters that have fallen are inumerable.I know at least 10 with fluff accounting for more than that.So what is the difference?

 

Sorry but that's so out of context. Erebus didn't start whispering in Horus' ear until after he had been mortally injured and healed by chaos. Yes the other primarchs were as well but he was the best.

 

Erebus was aligned to chaos long before he even met Horus.Erebus was an agent of chaos for more than a century,it was he who introduced Lorgar to the faith of chaos when he was censured by the emperor.He had been working for many many years for events to culminate on davin.Horus made the heresy but it was not the first to fall,Lorgar was.

 

the fluff states that Guilliman liberated more worlds than any other primarchs

 

Really?Does the codex space marines say so?Because codex DA says that the Lion had as many victories as Horus.I am sure that the SWs one says the same for the Big bad wolf and the BAs for the vampire angel.It was a well accepted fact that Horus was top of the primarchs in victories.

Given the nature of the primarchs to excel into a particular role then i would say that indeed the lion must be the second given that guilliman was an administrator and regent.However how did he manage to build something as inflexible as the codex i dont know or rather i know.Insert paranoia here.

 

It did not help that the high lords, and humanty in general feared a cival war occuring again. No one trusted the space marines and rightfully so, half of them arruptly defected and nearly destoryed the imperium in a few short years and rendered the strongest man in the imperium practically dead.

 

If what you say is true,then the highlords which were appointed by the emperor(and not Guilliman as the public opinion seems to hold,the emperor formed the administratum during the crusade in order to pursue his pet projects,remember Horus nagging about the administratix of earth requesting tithes from newly compliant worlds?)would put into the helm of the imperium a space marine primarch?But what am i saying....None put him in charge,he just got there with a full legion and took the throne,even going as far as ordering the navy to shoot his brothers ship.So the only way to correct the mistake was to replace one tyrant with another?And a highly incompetent one?The imperium needed unity in a time of crisis.Guilliman brandished his legions on the faces of everyone else and said:I am in charge or we get Heresy part II.

 

Very enlightened indeed!

[Brother Ambroz]

Erebus was aligned to chaos long before he even met Horus.Erebus was an agent of chaos for more than a century,it was he who introduced Lorgar to the faith of chaos when he was censured by the emperor.He had been working for many many years for events to culminate on davin.Horus made the heresy but it was not the first to fall,Lorgar was.

 

That's true but not really arguing that.

 

Really?Does the codex space marines say so?Because codex DA says that the Lion had as many victories as Horus.I am sure that the SWs one says the same for the Big bad wolf and the BAs for the vampire angel.It was a well accepted fact that Horus was top of the primarchs in victories.

Given the nature of the primarchs to excel into a particular role then i would say that indeed the lion must be the second given that guilliman was an administrator and regent.However how did he manage to build something as inflexible as the codex i dont know or rather i know.Insert paranoia here.

 

That's an excellent point though!

[Legatus]

If you consider the chapters effective consider the death toll it took them to contain and repel the ork invasions of armaggedon.

Considering the Second War for Armageddon (the first one against Ghazghkull) only required the presence of three Chapters, the third war, intended to allow players from around the world to participate with their Chapters, is a particularly bad example for how many Chapters are usually needed. Furthermore, GW had orchestrated the third war for Armageddon specifically to give the orks a 50/50 chance, and eventually have it result in a stalemate. So even if the Space Marines had still been organised into a Legion, it would have been about 20,000 Space Marines from a single Legion instead the same amount of Space Marines from several different Chapters, and the final result would have been the same. The important point is that the Third War for Armageddon turned out this way because that is specifically what GW wanted, due to it being a world wide campaign with player particiption, and not because Space Marines Chapters do not have the power to turn back a Waaagh.

 

 

Hell they even destroyed entire races.Now all they do is find retaliatory actions and escort the odd crusade fleet.And we see how well they did on that in the damocles gulf(yes UM i am looking at you).

"The Forging [ca. M32-M34]

The Golden Age of the Imperium. The Adeptus Terra begins an ambitious project to bring the most important systems in the Imperium under its direct control. Astropath choirs are established on Armageddon, Bakka, Macragge and a thousand others. Long-lost Standard Template Constructs are unearthed amid the ruins of the Cana system, slowing the decline of Imperial technology. The borders of the Imperium expand to a point almost on par with the success of the Great Crusade. Chaos Renegades and Xenos are purged from the galaxy in phenomenyl numbers, and countless rebel systems are brought to heel."

(5th Edition BRB, p. 124)

 

"The Age of Redemption [ca. M37-M38]

In which the sins of apostasy are purged in blood and tears. The Imperial cult grows in power as never before. Heretic pyres burn day and night on a thousand worlds as the populace of the Imperium mortify their sins through the flesh of others. Crusade after Crusade is launched to recapture the squandered wealth of the Imperium. The fervour peaks and thousands of worlds are left with inadequate defences as sector fleets, Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard Regiments are drawn into longer and more terrible crusades."

(5th Edition BRB, p. 125)

 

The Imperium does not lack offensive capabilities, as is aptly demonstrated with those passages. The reason why the Age of Redemption left the Imperium vulnerable is that too many forces were drawn off the defense, which would have happened with nine Legions of a combined 1,000,000 warriors just as much as with a thousand Chapters of a combined 1,000,000 warriors. That those Chapters operate independently instead of all being controlled by a single commander changes nothing. All Space Marine forces of a sector being drawn away means that all Space Marine forces in a sector are being drawn away, no matter how they are commanded.

 

 

Also the heresy didnt occur because of the SM legions,it occurred because of corruption.Before horus turned it was unthinkable for a marine to turn against his brothers and the emperor.Horus convinced them to turn because the emperor was a fool and could not perceive that his tools of war might be super humans,but were humans non the less and they had pride.Horus played with their pride just as Erebus played with his.Nothing more nothing less.

Also let me remind you that the desolation of the legions the number of chapters that have fallen are inumerable.I know at least 10 with fluff accounting for more than that.So what is the difference?

The difference is that each time a Chapter turns renegade, that is 1,000 warriors who are now turning against the Imperium, as opposed to 100,000. That was the entire point of the division into Chapters. It was not meant to make it so that no commander would ever be able to turn to Chaos. How could it? It was meant to ensure so that when a commander turned, it would not be an Imperium wide desaster of the sacel of the Horus Heresy. And since some Chapters have turned in teh past 10,000 years, that completely validates the decision to divide the Legions into Chapters.

 

 

the fluff states that Guilliman liberated more worlds than any other primarchs

Really?Does the codex space marines say so?Because codex DA says that the Lion had as many victories as Horus.I am sure that the SWs one says the same for the Big bad wolf and the BAs for the vampire angel.It was a well accepted fact that Horus was top of the primarchs in victories.

Ah, you apparently stopped reading after that first sentence. Here it is again:

 

FYI, the fluff states that Guilliman liberated more worlds than any other primarchs (including Horus). This comes originally from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines (p. 12), a lot of which had been reprinted in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. Other sources say that Horus, Jonson and Russ had the highest number of victories. That may seem to be a contradiction of sources, but then not every victory would result in a liberated world. E.g. destroying an alien fleet or an alien planet would count as a victory, but would not as a liberated world.

 

I emphasized the important bits you missed.

 

 

That's an excellent point though!

No, it's not!

[Brother Immolator]

Considering the Second War for Armageddon (the first one against Ghazghkull) only required the presence of three Chapters, the third war, intended to allow players from around the world to participate with their Chapters, is a particularly bad example for how many Chapters are usually needed. Furthermore, GW had orchestrated the third war for Armageddon specificallyto give the orks a 50/50 chance, and eventually have it result in a stalemate. So even if the Space Marines had still been organised into a Legion, it would have been about 20,000 Space Marines from a single Legion instead the same amount of Space Marines from several different Chapters, and the final result would have been the same. The important point is that the Third War for Armageddon turned out this way because that is specifically what GW wanted, due to it being a world wide campaign with player particiption, and not because Space Marines Chapters do not have the power to turn back a Waaagh.

 

Thats not a point fluff wise.By the same extent i can argue that the split of the legions was not made by guilliman by GW to boost space marine sales by not restrict players in the 20 legions.So were do that leads us?That fluff is made is according to gw needs?Yes we know that so everything is null then?

We explore the 40k universe according to the events inside the universe and not in regards to the real life factors.

And if we had 20000 marines from a single legion the other legions would have been freed to persecute campaigns elsewhere and not possibly leave other worlds to the mercy of whatever threat might arise.

 

The Forgin [ca. M32-M34]

The Golden Age of the Imperium. The Adeptus Terra begins an ambitious project to bring the most important systems in the Imperium under its direct control. Astropath choirs are established on Armageddon, Bakka, Macragge and a thousand others. Long-lost Standard Template Constructs are unearthed amid the ruins of the Cana system, slowing the decline of Imperial technology. The borders of the Imperium expand to a point almost on par with the success of the Great Crusade. Chaos Renegades and Xenos are purged from the galaxy in phenomenyl numbers, and countless rebel systems are brought to heel.

(5th Edition BRB, p. 124)

 

The Age of Redemption [ca. M37-M38]

In which the sins of apostasy are purged in blood and tears. The Imperial cult grows in power as never before. Heretic pyres burn day and night on a thousand worlds as the populace of the Imperium mortify their sins through the flesh of others. Crusade after Crusade is launched to recapture the squandered wealth of the Imperium. The fervour peaks and thousands of worlds are left with inadequate defences as sector fleets, Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard Regiments are drawn into longer and more terrible crusades

(5th Edition BRB, p. 125)

 

The Imperium does not lack offensive capabilities, as is aptly demonstrated with those passages. The reason why the Age of Redemption left the Imperium vulnerable is that too many forces were drawn off the defense, which would have happened with nine Legions of a combined 1,000,000 warriors just as much as with a thousand Chapters of a combined 1,000,000 warriors. That those Chapters operate independently instead of all being controlled by a single commander changes nothing. All Space Marine forces of a sector being drawn away means that all Space Marine forces in a sector are being drawn away, no matter how they are commanded.

 

Impressive you forgot the macharian crusade.Let me remind you that those were reclamation wars as pointed by the very text you posted.Also i bolded something in the quote.Another pro legion argument.If the chapters were adequate to reclaim worlds on their own as they were during the crusades there would be no need for serious IG support.The IG would have been relegated to its primary role:Garrison duty.And no worlds would have been left open,or need the huge tithes of imperial regiments.You yet again fail to see that chapters in essence defend swaths of space.If the 10 chapters are recalled for any reason those swaths are left defense less.If you had the legion style of organisation,each legion could brake some men from its main force and bolster the crusade.Thus still maintaining the defense and power up the offense.

 

Yes it changes a lot.They blow each other apart,their brotherhood rivalry has turned into secretive paranoia and chapters with even the same geneseed look down upon one another because of perceived and slight deviations.Call that battle coherency.Tell the templars to deploy along side a chapter that has a single librarian on its battle lines.Also a million warriors spread across thousands of battlefields.You seem to ignore that?

 

The difference is that each time a Chapter turns renegade, that is 1,000 warriors who are now turning against the Imperium, as opposed to 100,000. That was the entire point of the division into Chapters. It was not meant to make it so that no commander would ever be able to turn to Chaos. How could it? It was meant to ensure so that when a commander turned, it would not be an Imperium wide desaster of the sacel of the Horus Heresy. And since some Chapters have turned in teh past 10,000 years, that completely validates the decision to divide the Legions into Chapters.

 

No it wasnt as it was not proven during the bhadab war that was about to escalate into a second heresy....Very effective indeed.Lost only five chapters in a single blow.And required 9 more plus a subsector fleet to contain them.Very effective indeed.All the while the areas that they were supposed to protect runed the risk of external interference.

And those falls were only the recorded fact of that millenium,if you count all the chapters that have fallen since the heresy you have a list that exceeds the first fallen legions in number.

 

the fluff states that Guilliman liberated more worlds than any other primarchs

Really?Does the codex space marines say so?Because codex DA says that the Lion had as many victories as Horus.I am sure that the SWs one says the same for the Big bad wolf and the BAs for the vampire angel.It was a well accepted fact that Horus was top of the primarchs in victories.

Ah, you apparently stopped reading after that first sentence. Here it is again:

 

FYI, the fluff states that Guilliman liberated more worlds than any other primarchs (including Horus). This comes originally from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines (p. 12), a lot of which had been reprinted in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines.Other sources say that Horus, Jonson and Russ had the highest number of victories. That may seem to be a contradiction of sources, but then not every victory would result in a liberated world. E.g. destroying an alien fleet or an alien planet would count as a victory, but would not as a liberated world.

 

I emphasized the important bits you missed.

 

 

That's an excellent point though!

No, it's not!

 

 

So my current codex sources are not valid while a retconed 20 year old codex is?Ok then we may return to use boltguns into rapid firing mode regardless of range....And also a victory in a battle that doesnt play a role in the overall battle is not a victory at all.Very creative use of words but when we say victory in battles of that scale we usually mean total victory,not a victory on a back water skirmish that none remembers at all.

[Legatus]

And if we had 20000 marines from a single legion the other legions would have been freed to persecute campaigns elsewhere and not possibly leave other worlds to the mercy of whatever threat might arise.

If you remove 20,000 Marines to fight in a certain campaign, those Marines will not be available elsewhere. It makes no difference whether those 20,000 Marines all come from a Legion or whether they are from independent Chapters.

 

 

Impressive you forgot the macharian crusade.Let me remind you that those were reclamation wars as pointed by the very text you posted.Also i bolded something in the quote.Another pro legion argument.If the chapters were adequate to reclaim worlds on their own as they were during the crusades there would be no need for serious IG support.The IG would have been relegated to its primary role:Garrison duty.And no worlds would have been left open,or need the huge tithes of imperial regiments.You yet again fail to see that chapters in essence defend swaths of space.If the 10 chapters are recalled for any reason those swaths are left defense less.If you had the legion style of organisation,each legion could brake some men from its main force and bolster the crusade.Thus still maintaining the defense and power up the offense.

Please explain to me how 100,000 Marines from a Legion are different from 100,000 Marines from 100 Chapters. I fail to see why the latter could not achieve the same.

The Background mentions several large scale crusade efforts to reclaim sectors (lost in the Heresy, not just by some recent alien attacks) or even expand the borders of the Imperium. Collected Visions flat out states that one of the purposes to divide the Legions into Chapters was because Chapters would better be able to keep the Imperium from crumbling under the assaults from all directions. And then there are the instances of Chapters turning renegade. All these descriptions are either unambiguously in favour of the division into Chapters or are suggesting that Chapters are just as good in an offensive role (via crusades) as the Legions were. The fact that is usually casually overlooked by all those who claim that Legions would have still worked and could have just continued where the Great Crusade had left of is that the Imperium was in ruins after the Horus Heresy, being down to 25% or less of it's military strength (half turned, at least half died in the war), and that neither Emperor nor Primarchs would be around to lead such a crusade. It was simply not an option, and the reformation of the Imperial military has accomplished that the wounded Imperium was not going to fall, but instead endure for ten thousand years.

 

 

Also a million warriors spread across thousands of battlefields.You seem to ignore that?

That's a thousand protected worlds. Instead of ten. I'd call that a favourable statistic.

 

 

No it wasnt as it was not proven during the bhadab war that was about to escalate into a second heresy....Very effective indeed.Lost only five chapters in a single blow.And required 9 more plus a subsector fleet to contain them.Very effective indeed.

Er... how bloody would the conflict have been if 100,000 Marines would have turned?

 

A hand full of Chapters turning = Terrible!

 

A Legion turning = Game over!

 

=> Dividing the Legions = Win!

 

 

And those falls were only the recorded fact of that millenium,if you count all the chapters that have fallen since the heresy you have a list that exceeds the first fallen legions in number.

That is the point why the division was necessary!! It's purpose was not to make sure that no one could ever turn against the Imperium again. How should it have accomplished that? Make humans immune to Chaos and ambition somehow? No, the purpose was that when someone turned, the consequences would not be as dire as another Horus Heresy. The simple fact that around 50 Chapters (according to the Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 18) have turned in the past 10,000 years completely vindicates the decision to divide the Legions, for if only a single of those Chapter Masters had been a Legion commander, that would have been an entire Space Marine Legion tearing through the Imperium. 1,000 Space Marines will devastate an entire sector. 100,000 Marines would threaten an area magnitudes greater than that. That is the entire point of dividing the Space Marine Legions. So that no single man would be in command of the fearsome might of a Space Marine Legion. So that when that man turns, it is only 1,000 Space Marines against the Imperium, and not 100,000.

 

And btw. 50 Chapters turning amounts to about 50,000 traitors, whereas during the Horus Heresy it had been somewhere around 900,000. Those 900,000 turned within the time span of 200 years, whereas the 50,000 over ten thousand years amount to 1,000 per 200 years. 1,000 versus 900,000 is not a bad ratio.

 

 

So my current codex sources are not valid while a retconed 20 year old codex is?

No, you misunderstand. I refered to sources explaining that Roboute Guilliman had liberated the most worlds. I also refered to sources explaining that Horus, Jonson and Russ had the most victories. That you ignored me refering to the latter was the first reason why I pointed it out again. The other reason was to explain that "x amount of victories" and "x amount of liberated worlds" are two different things, and are not identical.

 

E.g.

 

Horus, during year 137 of the Great Crusade: 7 Xeno fleets destroyed, 13 Xeno worlds destroyed, 17 worlds liberated.

Total victories: 37

Total worlds liberated: 17

 

Guilliman, during year 137 of the Great Crusade: 3 Xeno fleets destroyed, 8 xeno worlds destroyed, 21 worlds liberated.

Total victories: 32

Total worlds liberated: 21

 

I.e. Horus had more victories, Guilliman had liberated more worlds.

 

 

And also a victory in a battle that doesnt play a role in the overall battle is not a victory at all.Very creative use of words but when we say victory in battles of that scale we usually mean total victory,not a victory on a back water skirmish that none remembers at all.

I am sure wiping out an alien race is an achievement worth remembering. And one that would have contributed no human worlds brought back into the Imperium.

[Brother Immolator]

And if we had 20000 marines from a single legion the other legions would have been freed to persecute campaigns elsewhere and not possibly leave other worlds to the mercy of whatever threat might arise.

If you remove 20,000 Marines to fight in a certain campaign, those Marines will not be available elsewhere. It makes no difference whether those 20,000 Marines all come from a Legion or whether they are from independent Chapters.

 

It makes a huge difference you dont abandon an entire front.You redeploy your back up troops,not your entire battle formation.

 

 

Impressive you forgot the macharian crusade.Let me remind you that those were reclamation wars as pointed by the very text you posted.Also i bolded something in the quote.Another pro legion argument.If the chapters were adequate to reclaim worlds on their own as they were during the crusades there would be no need for serious IG support.The IG would have been relegated to its primary role:Garrison duty.And no worlds would have been left open,or need the huge tithes of imperial regiments.You yet again fail to see that chapters in essence defend swaths of space.If the 10 chapters are recalled for any reason those swaths are left defense less.If you had the legion style of organisation,each legion could brake some men from its main force and bolster the crusade.Thus still maintaining the defense and power up the offense.

Please explain to me how 100,000 Marines from a Legion are different from 100,000 Marines from 100 Chapters. I fail to see why the latter could not achieve the same.

The Background mentions several large scale crusade efforts to reclaim sectors (lost in the Heresy, not just by some recent alien attacks) or even expand the borders of the Imperium. Collected Visions flat out states that one of the purposes to divide the Legions into Chapters was because Chapters would better be able to keep the Imperium from crumbling under the assaults from all directions. And then there are the instances of Chapters turning renegade. All these descriptions are either unambiguously in favour of the division into Chapters or are suggesting that Chapters are just as good in an offensive role (via crusades) as the Legions were. The fact that is usually casually overlooked by all those who claim that Legions would have still worked and could have just continued where the Great Crusade had left of is that the Imperium was in ruins after the Horus Heresy, being down to 25% or less of it's military strength (half turned, at least half died in the war), and that neither Emperor nor Primarchs would be around to lead such a crusade. It was simply not an option, and the reformation of the Imperial military has accomplished that the wounded Imperium was not going to fall, but instead endure for ten thousand years.

 

The legions could have been rebuild in due time and while campaigning as they have always been doing during the great crusade.Also building more of them would not be an issue.It would just need more time than raising a small chapter.On the other hand raising 1000 marines and give them cart blank on their numbers you

and you have a new legion within the span of a few centuries.You seem to ignore the fact that guillimans reforms nearly started a second war.

The templars and the angels effectively are now the last two remaining legions.I wont speak for the DA cause it might seem biased but the last time i checked the BT were the most succesfull chapter of the imperium.It has the numbers of a small legion,they operation in many warzones but under the scrutiny of centralized command that allows them to be efficient.Unlike a thousand other chapters that after a protracted deployment they need centuries to rebuild.Throw a chapter into a protracted engagement and if it survives it needs centuries to rebuild.But i guess central command,recuperation times and combat effectiveness,reserves and things like that are small potatoes to some.

 

Also a million warriors spread across thousands of battlefields.You seem to ignore that?

That's a thousand protected worlds. Instead of ten. I'd call that a favourable statistic.

 

Yes i saw that on ultramar and quite possibly ill see it on bhaal in the next edition.If there were not some segmentum fleets,successor and non successor chapters and hundreds of imperial guard regiments,the entire sector would have been so saved...Even now it was saved on the brink with enitre UM companies all but wiped out effectively rendering the chapter inoperable.But we can ignore this again on the notion that a chapter is capable of protecting the imperium...while unable to protect its own world...

 

No it wasnt as it was not proven during the bhadab war that was about to escalate into a second heresy....Very effective indeed.Lost only five chapters in a single blow.And required 9 more plus a subsector fleet to contain them.Very effective indeed.

Er... how bloody would the conflict have been if 100,000 Marines would have turned?

 

A hand full of Chapters turning = Terrible!

 

A Legion turning = Game over!

 

=> Dividing the Legions = Win!

 

A hand full of Chapters turning = Terrible!----->Marines lost to the imperium or occupied during the war ---->15000---->Legion size

So

 

Committing nine chapters to comply said chapter and an assortment of subsector fleets = Triple terrible!

 

Thus a legion defecting=Terrible

Sending another legion to stop them while leaving a single are of space undefended instead of 15 = Better

 

====>Keeping the legions = GOLDEN WIN!

 

 

And those falls were only the recorded fact of that millenium,if you count all the chapters that have fallen since the heresy you have a list that exceeds the first fallen legions in number.

That is the point why the division was necessary!! It's purpose was not to make sure that no one could ever turn against the Imperium again. How should it have accomplished that? Make humans immune to Chaos and ambition somehow? No, the purpose was that when someone turned, the consequences would not be as dire as another Horus Heresy. The simple fact that around 50 Chapters (according to the Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 18) have turned in the past 10,000 years completely vindicates the decision to divide the Legions, for if only a single of those Chapter Masters had been a Legion commander, that would have been an entire Space Marine Legion tearing through the Imperium. 1,000 Space Marines will devastate an entire sector. 100,000 Marines would threaten an area magnitudes greater than that. That is the entire point of dividing the Space Marine Legions. So that no single man would be in command of the fearsome might of a Space Marine Legion. So that when that man turns, it is only 1,000 Space Marines against the Imperium, and not 100,000.

 

By the numbers if a space marine legion turns on its own it has an undisclosed number of other legions to fight.So in essence the rates are the same.It would do damage but so can a chapter.

 

And btw. 50 Chapters turning amounts to about 50,000 traitors, whereas during the Horus Heresy it had been somewhere around 900,000. Those 900,000 turned within the time span of 200 years, whereas the 50,000 over ten thousand years amount to 1,000 per 200 years. 1,000 versus 900,000 is not a bad ratio.

 

I dont have the numbers but i believe they were not that much,i believe all in all the traitors were around 350k but ill have to dig that out.

 

So my current codex sources are not valid while a retconed 20 year old codex is?

No, you misunderstand. I refered to sources explaining that Roboute Guilliman had liberated the most worlds. I also refered to sources explaining that Horus, Jonson and Russ had the most victories. That you ignored me refering to the latter was the first reason why I pointed it out again. The other reason was to explain that "x amount of victories" and "x amount of liberated worlds" are two different things, and are not identical.

 

E.g.

 

Horus, during year 137 of the Great Crusade: 7 Xeno fleets destroyed, 13 Xeno worlds destroyed, 17 worlds liberated.

Total victories: 37

Total worlds liberated: 17

 

Guilliman, during year 137 of the Great Crusade: 3 Xeno fleets destroyed, 8 xeno worlds destroyed, 21 worlds liberated.

Total victories: 32

Total worlds liberated: 21

 

I.e. Horus had more victories, Guilliman had liberated more worlds.

 

State source of those.

 

And also a victory in a battle that doesnt play a role in the overall battle is not a victory at all.Very creative use of words but when we say victory in battles of that scale we usually mean total victory,not a victory on a back water skirmish that none remembers at all.

I am sure wiping out an alien race is an achievement worth remembering. And one that would have contributed no human worlds brought back into the Imperium.

 

Some editing issues but my answers are clear i believe.

[Brother Immolator]

And if we had 20000 marines from a single legion the other legions would have been freed to persecute campaigns elsewhere and not possibly leave other worlds to the mercy of whatever threat might arise.

If you remove 20,000 Marines to fight in a certain campaign, those Marines will not be available elsewhere. It makes no difference whether those 20,000 Marines all come from a Legion or whether they are from independent Chapters.

 

It makes a huge difference you dont abandon an entire front.You redeploy your back up troops,not your entire battle formation.

 

 

Impressive you forgot the macharian crusade.Let me remind you that those were reclamation wars as pointed by the very text you posted.Also i bolded something in the quote.Another pro legion argument.If the chapters were adequate to reclaim worlds on their own as they were during the crusades there would be no need for serious IG support.The IG would have been relegated to its primary role:Garrison duty.And no worlds would have been left open,or need the huge tithes of imperial regiments.You yet again fail to see that chapters in essence defend swaths of space.If the 10 chapters are recalled for any reason those swaths are left defense less.If you had the legion style of organisation,each legion could brake some men from its main force and bolster the crusade.Thus still maintaining the defense and power up the offense.

Please explain to me how 100,000 Marines from a Legion are different from 100,000 Marines from 100 Chapters. I fail to see why the latter could not achieve the same.

The Background mentions several large scale crusade efforts to reclaim sectors (lost in the Heresy, not just by some recent alien attacks) or even expand the borders of the Imperium. Collected Visions flat out states that one of the purposes to divide the Legions into Chapters was because Chapters would better be able to keep the Imperium from crumbling under the assaults from all directions. And then there are the instances of Chapters turning renegade. All these descriptions are either unambiguously in favour of the division into Chapters or are suggesting that Chapters are just as good in an offensive role (via crusades) as the Legions were. The fact that is usually casually overlooked by all those who claim that Legions would have still worked and could have just continued where the Great Crusade had left of is that the Imperium was in ruins after the Horus Heresy, being down to 25% or less of it's military strength (half turned, at least half died in the war), and that neither Emperor nor Primarchs would be around to lead such a crusade. It was simply not an option, and the reformation of the Imperial military has accomplished that the wounded Imperium was not going to fall, but instead endure for ten thousand years.

 

The legions could have been rebuild in due time and while campaigning as they have always been doing during the great crusade.Also building more of them would not be an issue.It would just need more time than raising a small chapter.On the other hand raising 1000 marines and give them cart blank on their numbers you

and you have a new legion within the span of a few centuries.You seem to ignore the fact that guillimans reforms nearly started a second war.

The templars and the angels effectively are now the last two remaining legions.I wont speak for the DA cause it might seem biased but the last time i checked the BT were the most succesfull chapter of the imperium.It has the numbers of a small legion,they operation in many warzones but under the scrutiny of centralized command that allows them to be efficient.Unlike a thousand other chapters that after a protracted deployment they need centuries to rebuild.Throw a chapter into a protracted engagement and if it survives it needs centuries to rebuild.But i guess central command,recuperation times and combat effectiveness,reserves and things like that are small potatoes to some.

 

Also a million warriors spread across thousands of battlefields.You seem to ignore that?

That's a thousand protected worlds. Instead of ten. I'd call that a favourable statistic.

 

Yes i saw that on ultramar and quite possibly ill see it on bhaal in the next edition.If there were not some segmentum fleets,successor and non successor chapters and hundreds of imperial guard regiments,the entire sector would have been so saved...Even now it was saved on the brink with enitre UM companies all but wiped out effectively rendering the chapter inoperable.But we can ignore this again on the notion that a chapter is capable of protecting the imperium...while unable to protect its own world...

 

No it wasnt as it was not proven during the bhadab war that was about to escalate into a second heresy....Very effective indeed.Lost only five chapters in a single blow.And required 9 more plus a subsector fleet to contain them.Very effective indeed.

Er... how bloody would the conflict have been if 100,000 Marines would have turned?

 

A hand full of Chapters turning = Terrible!

 

A Legion turning = Game over!

 

=> Dividing the Legions = Win!

 

A hand full of Chapters turning = Terrible!----->Marines lost to the imperium or occupied during the war ---->15000---->Legion size

So

 

Committing nine chapters to comply said chapter and an assortment of subsector fleets = Triple terrible!

 

Thus a legion defecting=Terrible

Sending another legion to stop them while leaving a single are of space undefended instead of 15 = Better

 

====>Keeping the legions = GOLDEN WIN!

 

 

And how bloody it would be?Since when did the imperium counted casualties?The problem of the imperium is not casualties in the human population or even in its armies.The problem of the imperium is to hold ground,and as you can see year by year the the borders are been pushed towards terra more and more.

Ill say this again for the last time:This inflexibility calls for the imperium to fight a war on a thousand fronts.Individually this wars will eventually be won but think this on map:You suddenly loose 18 provinces in one stroke:Now you can deploy forces to reclaim 15 of them.You reclaim them.Now all the while you make those preparations you loose another 20.You react to that loss and reclaim 15 back,and then you have another incursion.At this rate you mount losses and you dont have the speed to counter those losses.You have the space marines who must happen to be near a zone to give assistance,it must obliged,you must with their current agenda you must not have any forces that they dont like and a thousand other variables.Talk about flexibility.

 

 

 

And those falls were only the recorded fact of that millenium,if you count all the chapters that have fallen since the heresy you have a list that exceeds the first fallen legions in number.

That is the point why the division was necessary!! It's purpose was not to make sure that no one could ever turn against the Imperium again. How should it have accomplished that? Make humans immune to Chaos and ambition somehow? No, the purpose was that when someone turned, the consequences would not be as dire as another Horus Heresy. The simple fact that around 50 Chapters (according to the Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 18) have turned in the past 10,000 years completely vindicates the decision to divide the Legions, for if only a single of those Chapter Masters had been a Legion commander, that would have been an entire Space Marine Legion tearing through the Imperium. 1,000 Space Marines will devastate an entire sector. 100,000 Marines would threaten an area magnitudes greater than that. That is the entire point of dividing the Space Marine Legions. So that no single man would be in command of the fearsome might of a Space Marine Legion. So that when that man turns, it is only 1,000 Space Marines against the Imperium, and not 100,000.

 

By the numbers if a space marine legion turns on its own it has an undisclosed number of other legions to fight.So in essence the rates are the same.It would do damage but so can a chapter.

 

And btw. 50 Chapters turning amounts to about 50,000 traitors, whereas during the Horus Heresy it had been somewhere around 900,000. Those 900,000 turned within the time span of 200 years, whereas the 50,000 over ten thousand years amount to 1,000 per 200 years. 1,000 versus 900,000 is not a bad ratio.

 

I dont have the numbers but i believe they were not that much,i believe all in all the traitors were around 350k but ill have to dig that out.

 

So my current codex sources are not valid while a retconed 20 year old codex is?

No, you misunderstand. I refered to sources explaining that Roboute Guilliman had liberated the most worlds. I also refered to sources explaining that Horus, Jonson and Russ had the most victories. That you ignored me refering to the latter was the first reason why I pointed it out again. The other reason was to explain that "x amount of victories" and "x amount of liberated worlds" are two different things, and are not identical.

 

E.g.

 

Horus, during year 137 of the Great Crusade: 7 Xeno fleets destroyed, 13 Xeno worlds destroyed, 17 worlds liberated.

Total victories: 37

Total worlds liberated: 17

 

Guilliman, during year 137 of the Great Crusade: 3 Xeno fleets destroyed, 8 xeno worlds destroyed, 21 worlds liberated.

Total victories: 32

Total worlds liberated: 21

 

I.e. Horus had more victories, Guilliman had liberated more worlds.

 

State source of those.

 

And also a victory in a battle that doesnt play a role in the overall battle is not a victory at all.Very creative use of words but when we say victory in battles of that scale we usually mean total victory,not a victory on a back water skirmish that none remembers at all.

I am sure wiping out an alien race is an achievement worth remembering. And one that would have contributed no human worlds brought back into the Imperium.

 

Some editing issues but my answers are clear i believe.In the end i cant understand what is your problem with the legions?The supposed lack of protection against chaos or strategic things?

 

Oh and something else:Suppose another legion turns renegade.As we know chaos is a fickle mistress,they will brake up and kill one another as did the rest of them and seize to be an effective fighting force.The only thing that united them is abbadon and that happenes only once in a while.Its another win for the imperium since her own legions are united and not disorganized bickering fighting forces.

[MagicMan]

@Wall of text + Topic question

 

 

 

 

Short Answer: Yes.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Alright guys, settle down, settle down, and please cut down your posts so that other people might have an inclination to read them :)

[Legatus]

It makes a huge difference you dont abandon an entire front.You redeploy your back up troops,not your entire battle formation.

If you remove 1,000 Marines from 20 different sectors each, then you now have 20 sectors without Marine presence. It doesn't matter one bit to those sectors whether those 1,000 Marines had been an independent Chapter or a large detachment of a Legion. If you send 20,000 Marines to one engagement, then those 20,000 Marines will not be someplace else. It would make a difference if you assumed that the Marines of a Legion wouldn't be spread all over the galaxy to fend off the myriad threats, but then the Imperium would be done by now, basically.

 

 

The legions could have been rebuild in due time and while campaigning as they have always been doing during the great crusade.

No, because the Primarchs were largely gone, because there now was a massive new threat in the form of the Chaos Legions, because the Emperor was gone, because the Imperium was almost completely destroyed, because the military forces were down to a fraction of it's strength during the Great Crusade, and because the Aliens and Heretics rose up all over the galaxy to attack the wounded Imperium. The background is pretty unambiguous in that the Imperium and the Space Marines could not just have dusted off and rebuilt the Legions and then continued as if nothing had happened. Things would never be the same again, and the Imperium would have fallen, had the High Lords not taken controll and consolidated the Imperial forces and established a structure that would allow the Imperium to function without the Emperor.

 

The Age of Rebirth

The Imperium arises from the ashes of the Horus Heresy. The Codex Astartes and other doctrines are drawn up and implemented, in the hope that large-scale rebellion will never again be possible.

(5th Ed. BRB, p. 124)

 

As if the traitors were not enough for the badly mauled Imperium to deal with, this time [after the Heresy] also marked the rise of the aliens. With so much of its strength siphoned off to fight the civil war, humanity found itself at the mercy of a new wave of aggressive xenos races. Sensing that the Imeprium was weak, a plethora of alien races appeared or returned to plague the worlds of mankind. (...) all now preyed upon a shattered mankind. Humanity become ever more strident in its xeno-phobia as tales of the horrors these aliens inflicted upon mankind percolated around the Imperium.

During this period the hierarchy of the Imperium underwent fundamental changes. (...) The Council of Terra was reformed and became the 'High Lords of Terra', who spoke for the Emperor and whose word was law. New Imperial organisations were created to govern the Imperium and combat the ever-present threat of Chaos. The Space Marine Legions under the guidance of Roboute Guilliman were restructured into smaller, more flexible 'Chapters' to better combat the myriad threats to the Imperium - the legendary 'Second Founding' of the Space Marines.

(Collected Visions, p 370)

 

"By the end of the Horus Heresy the galaxy was in turmoil once more. The armies of the Imperium were destroyed or scattered. Thousands of spacecraft had been lost in the conflict. Worse of all, the Emperor was gone. Though not actually dead he was lost to the living world and his spirit cast into the vortex of Chaos. The guidance which the Emperor had given the Imperium for hundreds of years was suddenly absent. Such was the power and influence of the Emperor that it was impossible to imagine a single successor inheriting his mantle. For a while it seemed as if the Imperium would surely break apart: that the Cult Mechanicus and the workshops of Mars would divorce themselves from the Imperium, that Primarchs and Space Marines would establish their own empires in the depths of space.

What happened next is the tribute to the skill and foresight of a very few powerful men, not least to the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman. A council was formed of the twelve most powerful individuals in the Imperium. They called themselves the High Lords of Terra, and their self-proclaimed role was to rule the Imperium on behalf of the Emperor. (...)

The High Lords established the divisions of the Imperium that remain familiar to this day. It was they who formalised the title of Adeptus which is used by all who are servants of the Emperor. The first High Lords laid the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary Lords. One of the most important of their accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium's armies. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the fleet and the Space Marines."

(2nd Ed. Codex Ultramarines, p. 8)

 

 

So, no, the Imperium could not just have continued the Great Crusade as it had done before. It was politically unthinkable, as no longer should one single man have the power over an entire Legion, it was economically impossible, as the Imperium lay in ruins, and it was strategically inviable, since the Imperium was attacked from all sides.

 

I was going to say that any claims of that nature ("the Imperium should have kept the Legions continued with the Great Crusade") sound terribly uninformed, but then not a lot of sources describe the exact situation after the Scouring and the rise of the Adeptus Terra in great detail, and especially the Collected Visions and the Codex Ultramarines are not really common sources. So I guess I cannot hold it against someone if he is not neccessarily familiar with all of that background.

 

 

You seem to ignore the fact that guillimans reforms nearly started a second war.

I am not ignoring that fact. It merley had no relevance to the issues at hand.

 

 

The templars and the angels effectively are now the last two remaining legions.

Well... when Legions were still assumed to have been 10,000 strong, the Black Templars were at least the size of half a Legion. Unfortunately now it seems Legions are supposed to have been 100,000 strong on average. I prefer the original, smaller sizes myself, but I think GW wants to go with the bigger ones.

The Dark Angels and their successors are not really a united force. They merely coordinate their efforts concerning the hunt for the fallen. The Grand Master of the Dark Angels is in charge of that effort, and he will tell the other unforgiven where to look, and tehy will report any findings back to him. But that is not the same as him being in command over all of those Chapters. The Ultramarines, similarly, are said to coordinate their efforts with their immediate successors. That still does not make it a Legion. When the Ultramarines are in danger, successors will come to their aid. The same is true for any other Chapter. (Except for the Iron Hands perhaps...)

 

 

Yes i saw that on ultramar and quite possibly ill see it on bhaal in the next edition.If there were not some segmentum fleets,successor and non successor chapters and hundreds of imperial guard regiments,the entire sector would have been so saved...Even now it was saved on the brink with enitre UM companies all but wiped out effectively rendering the chapter inoperable.But we can ignore this again on the notion that a chapter is capable of protecting the imperium...while unable to protect its own world...

Here are some stats:

 

1,000 Chapters protecting 1,000 sectors. 500 sectors are attacked, 50 are attacked more heavily than expected.

==> 450 sectors are successfully defended, while 50 sectors are lost.

 

9 Legions protecting 9 sectors. 500 sectors are attacked, 50 are attacked more heavily than expected.

==> 9 sectors are successfully defendes, while 491 sectors are lost.

 

But those are just some very simplistic figures for "concentrated Legions" vs "spread Chapters". In reality, the Imperium is well capable to respond to larger threats with the consolidation of several Chapters and other Imperial Forces as needed. Also in reality, the Legions would not operate as a large force, but would instead spread their Chapters/Grand Companies over the entire galaxy to fight where needed, rendering the discussion about Legion vs Chapter effectiveness largely moot, were it not for the background in the Collected Visions book explaining that the division into Chapters was expected to better allow them to fight the myriad threats to the Imperium.

 

 

Committing nine chapters to comply said chapter and an assortment of subsector fleets = Triple terrible!

 

Thus a legion defecting=Terrible

Sending another legion to stop them while leaving a single are of space undefended instead of 15 = Better

First, if you are commiting an entire Legion to fighting another Legion then your are now lacking 10,000 Space Marines that cannot fight somewhere else. You are not just leaving "a single area of space" undefended.

Second, Two Legions fighting across a sector or even multiple sectors is a lot more bloody than a hand ful of Chapters on each side.

And now imagine that we were talking about the new 100,000 strong Legions, and not just the 10,000 strong ones.

 

 

Ill say this again for the last time:This inflexibility calls for the imperium to fight a war on a thousand fronts.

The Imperium fights on a thousand fronts because it is attacked on a thousand fronts. It is not because the Imperium just arbitrarily chose to spread its forces and wait for the aliens to attack at those positions. When was the last time you read about a Chapter that was stationed at a quiet sector and never got to fight anything? There was no last time you read that, because that doesn't happen. If their own sector is secure, Chapters actually go out there with their cruisers and barges and actively seek trouble. You wont have Chapters that don't fight, and they will allways find an enemy.

 

 

Individually this wars will eventually be won but think this on map:You suddenly loose 18 provinces in one stroke:Now you can deploy forces to reclaim 15 of them.You reclaim them.Now all the while you make those preparations you loose another 20.You react to that loss and reclaim 15 back,and then you have another incursion.At this rate you mount losses and you dont have the speed to counter those losses.You have the space marines who must happen to be near a zone to give assistance,it must obliged,you must with their current agenda you must not have any forces that they dont like and a thousand other variables.Talk about flexibility.

And why would nine Legions be better than a thousand Chapters in such a situation? A thousand Chapters can defend a thousand places. Nine Legions cannot do that. Or they split up into a thousand pieces. Then you wouldn't need the Legions in the first place. If Chapters come accross opposition that is too much for a single Chapter, they call for other Chapters for backup.

 

 

E.g.

 

Horus, during year 137 of the Great Crusade: 7 Xeno fleets destroyed, 13 Xeno worlds destroyed, 17 worlds liberated.

Total victories: 37

Total worlds liberated: 17

 

Guilliman, during year 137 of the Great Crusade: 3 Xeno fleets destroyed, 8 xeno worlds destroyed, 21 worlds liberated.

Total victories: 32

Total worlds liberated: 21

 

I.e. Horus had more victories, Guilliman had liberated more worlds.

State source of those.

Those were examples to demonstrate the concept of "victories" vs "liberated worlds".

 

 

In the end i cant understand what is your problem with the legions?

I have nothing against the Legions. The Legions are cool. And they make for an awesome "ancient history lore" of the 40K universe. And key element of that ancient lore is that half of those Legions turned against the Emperor and almost destroyed the entire Imperium. That is also part of what makes it so cool. A tragic betrayal on an epic scale.

What I don't like are assertions that the reorganisation of the Imperium after the Scouring was somehow a bad move, in particular since such claims are usually intended to blame Guilliman. The background describes that as one of his achievements, and we wouldn't be able to play Black Templars, Flesh Tearers, DIY, etc. if it would still be the original Legions. The Imperium should be grateful since it was allowed to continue to exist, and players should be thankful that they can play one of many different Chapters. The only reason why this issue is brought up and criticised at all is just because people don't like Guilliman and want to poo poo anything he has done.