Was Horus really all That BadAss...?

[Coryphaus 101]

I don't get thus whole legion vs chapter debate. It just doesn't make sense. I mean the Legions split up during the Great Crusade anyway, sending these marines to help this expedition force and the rest of them continue to the next world on their list. Really, the Chapters didn't do anything except make the division clear and permanent. Sure, this means you don't a large fighting force coordinated by one group, which could cause a problem of you had to organize a large campaign but there weren't many people left that could coordinate a force as big as a legion.

[karden00]

Legatus, noble brother, you seem to me to be the prevailing sense of logic and tactical know-how in your dispute (May father Guilliman and He on Terra smile upon you). But I sense that this thread nears its end, as our good moderators may perhaps detect some antagonism here. So Ill put it forward one final time to my goodly battle brothers: at the end of the day, is Horus top dog? My own sense is that he is. Though my loyalty hardly permits me to say it, Horus, like Satan, was created in a teir above his brothers, and to me, unless it is VERY explicitly stated otherwise, he owns mastery in all aspects. The only notable exception that comes to mind is that he would not be able to match Magnus in psionics. I can see him beating down Anger-on. I can see him out brawling Russ (that Russ got the better of him once, in controlled circumstances, as I recall it, does not mean absolutely that it would happen again, or in perpetuity) Sanguinius, as far as I can reckon, stood the best chance in a fight, but we all know what happened there.

 

Courage and Honor!

[Brother Immolator]

Indeed this has gone far enough and since its tiring ill drop it.

 

Legatus if you want to continue this my inbox is empty fill free to drop in.

 

And BTW because i dont share guillimans views and dont play UM doesnt mean i dont know anything about tactics or logic.

[Valkyrion]

A loyal legion is a hundred times better than a loyal chapter.

A disloyal legion is a hundred time worse than a disloyal chapter.

 

Risk vs reward. The reward of 950 loyal chapters is greater than the risk of one disloyal legion.

 

I don't want to speak on his behalf but that seems to be the crux of Legatus' point, and it's difficult to argue with really. IMO, of course.

[Grimdarkness]

It is said in fluff that the Ultramarines conqued more worlds and left them in a better state more than any other legion apart from the Luna Wolves, and thats in the SM 5th ed codex on page 13. Well something along those lines.

 

I call Bull on this it has been stated in a couple of places that the luna wolfs where first (only because they claimed victory when other legions did most of the hard work including the Ultras)

Dark Angel's next the lion was a tactical and strategtic master. (which has yet to be shown in the HH books bit of a :P off more so then robute only robbie wrote a book and "lived" longer then his brother.)

The space wolfs are next much to russ's dismay.

 

Horus I see as a political master he pushed both the world eaters and blood angels to greater acts by always passing alone the glories won buy the others. He has the wolf's and dark angles fighting together thus pushing each other he sent the U.M off to the far end of the galaxy. He was a master at mennipulation.(sp)

[Brother Immolator]

A loyal legion is a hundred times better than a loyal chapter.

A disloyal legion is a hundred time worse than a disloyal chapter.

 

Risk vs reward. The reward of 950 loyal chapters is greater than the risk of one disloyal legion.

 

I don't want to speak on his behalf but that seems to be the crux of Legatus' point, and it's difficult to argue with really. IMO, of course.

 

I can argue the point but at this rate and style of argument/counter argument/ignore counter argument/next argument and so on,the debate degenerates into a foul circle that either one of us will get frustrated and drop it or will continue to annoy others to infinity.We need a thread of our own.

And already people grew tired so lets just live it at that.As i said everyone who feels to discuss this either open a new thread or PM i am happy to oblige.

[The Emperor's Champion]

It is said in fluff that the Ultramarines conqued more worlds and left them in a better state more than any other legion apart from the Luna Wolves, and thats in the SM 5th ed codex on page 13. Well something along those lines.

 

I call Bull on this it has been stated in a couple of places that the luna wolfs where first (only because they claimed victory when other legions did most of the hard work including the Ultras)

Nope, he's right. ...sort of. It IS something along those lines.

The Ultramarines took more worlds for the Imperium and did it faster and more efficiently than anyone else.

That's the thing, the Ultramarines DIDN'T conquer more worlds. They didn't have to conquer all the worlds they took. Through conquering, diplomacy, etc they have the best record in the Great Crusade.

 

Moreover, a lot of the worlds the Luna Wolves and friends "conquered" rebelled shortly thereafter and had to be sorted back out by the Ultramarines (who weren't impressed with the sloppy "conquering").

[Legatus]

I call Bull on this it has been stated in a couple of places that the luna wolfs where first (only because they claimed victory when other legions did most of the hard work including the Ultras)

Dark Angel's next the lion was a tactical and strategtic master. (which has yet to be shown in the HH books bit of a censored.gif off more so then robute only robbie wrote a book and "lived" longer then his brother.)

The space wolfs are next much to russ's dismay.

The Index Astartes Luna Wolves does indeed say that the Luna Wolves "brought the most worlds in to the Imperial fold", but that singular source stands against a 2nd Edition Codex and a 5th Edition Codex claiming specifically that Roboute Guilliman liberated more worlds than any other Primarch. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines even specifically explains the method that allowed the Ultramarines to make such fast progress, lending it a lot of weight.

There are other sources explaining that Horus, Jonson and Russ (in that order) had the highest number of victories, but as I have tried to explain a few times already, "number of victories" is not identical with "number of conquered worlds".

 

 

Edit: Some references:

 

2nd Edition

 

"[Guilliman's] chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and soon he led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. He succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skill and passion for efficient government. Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set up a self-supporting defence system. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people. In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12)

 

"If Jonson was quiet he was also brave and a mighty leader of men. During the Great Crusade only he and Horus had achieved a greater tally of victories than Russ. Russ, ever concerned with his honour and good name, and ever keen to tell the noble saga of his deeds, found this exasperating."

(2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death, p. 67, "The Lion and the Wolf")

 

3rd Edition

 

"As the Space Marine Legions pushed back the frontiers of the Imperium, each Primarch strove to excel in the eyes of the Emperor and none more so than Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves. Only Horus and Lion El'Jonson could claim more victories than Russ and this was a constant frustration to him."

(3rd Edition Index Astartes Dark Angels, Index Astartes I, p. 20, "The Lion and the Wolf")

 

"The overriding belief of the [Luna Wolves] Legion prior to the Warmaster's demise was in the ultimate superiority of Horus and themselves. In continually seeking to prove themselves as the greatest Legion, they did indeed achieve most in terms of sheer numbers of worlds brought into the Imperial fold prior to the Heresy."

(Index astartes Luna Wolves, "Beliefs")

 

4th Edition

 

"As the Space Marine Legions pushed forward the frontiers of the Imperium, each Primarch strove to excel in the eyes of the Emperor and none more so than the bombastic Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves. Only Horus and Lion El'Jonson could claim more victories than Russ and this was a constant frustration to him."

(4th Edition Codex Dark Angels, p. 20, "The Lion and the Wolf")

 

5th Edition

 

"Guilliman's chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and he led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. He succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skill and passion for efficient government. Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from tyranny, his first priority was to set up a self-supporting defence system. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading roiutes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people."

(5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 13)

 

 

As you can see, while there are many sources, they mostly just repeat the original passages. The account about Horus, Jonson and Russ having the highest tally of victories originally comes from the 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death, and is then reprinted in the 3rd Edition Index Astartes Dark Angels and the 4th Edition Codex Dark Angels. The account about Guilliman having liberated more worlds than any other Primarch originally comes from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, and was then reprinted in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines (which unfortunately omits the note that the described procedures allowed the Ultramarines to conquer worlds faster than other Legions). Only the 3rd Edition Index Astartes Luna Wolves stands in direct contradiction to the Ultramarines' claim, stating that it had been the Luna Wolves that had brought the most worlds into the Imperial fold.

 

I am naturally biased, since the Ultramarines are my favourite Chapter/Legion, but I would say that the two Codices have more weight than the single Luna Wolves Index Astartes article. Not just because a Codex in itself should carry more weight than a White Dwarf article, but also because the Codex Ultramarines had specifically described his methods and processes which had supposedly allowed him to be so successful, and did not merely assert that he was.

 

As I have said, I don't think that the Ultramarines account and the Dark Angels account are neccessarily contradictory, since one is refering to liberated worlds and the other to victories in general. However, if one considered these to be contradictory, I would once again be of course biased. But also once again I would say that the Ultramarines account should carry more weight, since that was a deliberate description of the Ultramarines' approach and their successes, while the Dark Angels account merely uses the assertion that only Horus and Jonson had more victories than Leman Russ simply as a means to justify Russ having a beef with Jonson. The Space Wolves sources, in turn, do not mention the number of victories at all, and instead claim that the feud between Jonson and Russ began because the Dark Angels had left the flanks of the Space Wolves unprotected and had caused them significant casualties.

 

I.e., to paraphrase the statements of the Ultramarines vs. the Dark Angels accounts:

 

"The Ultramarines used a very specific approach to their conquests, which allowed them to liberate the most worlds." (UM account)

 

"Russ did not really like Jonson, since only Horus and Jonson had more victories than him." (DA account)

 

One is a specific description of achievements, including an explanation for the success, while the other merely throws the assertion of achievement in there to justify the relation between two characters.

 

But, as I said, I am also biased. And I do still think that "number of victories" and "number of liberated worlds" are not identical and that thus both the Dark Angels account and the Ultramarines account can both be accurate.

[Gree]

Please explain to me how 100,000 Marines from a Legion are different from 100,000 Marines from 100 Chapters. I fail to see why the latter could not achieve the same.

 

Perhaps not the point you are looking for, but a Legion would have integrated Imperial Army assets and Navy assets, including ships built specially for ship-to-ship combat instead of planetary assault. (And depending on what fluff source you take as canon, robot manipals as well).

 

The Chapters do not have that.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I call Bull on this it has been stated in a couple of places that the luna wolfs where first (only because they claimed victory when other legions did most of the hard work including the Ultras)

Dark Angel's next the lion was a tactical and strategtic master. (which has yet to be shown in the HH books bit of a censored.gif off more so then robute only robbie wrote a book and "lived" longer then his brother.)

The space wolfs are next much to russ's dismay.

The Index Astartes Luna Wolves does indeed say that the Luna Wolves "brought the most worlds in to the Imperial fold", but that singular source stands against a 2nd Edition Codex and a 5th Edition Codex claiming specifically that Roboute Guilliman liberated more worlds than any other Primarch. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines even specifically explains the method that allowed the Ultramarines to make such fast progress, lending it a lot of weight.

There are other sources explaining that Horus, Jonson and Russ (in that order) had the highest number of victories, but as I have tried to explain a few times already, "number of victories" is not identical with "number of conquered worlds".

I'll let Legatus handle this one. He's our specialist in the "nailing down the exact wording" department.

[MagicMan]

So the prevailing argument is that yes Horus was first amongst Primarchs.... Except for Guilliman?

 

I think some people might have sliggghtly biased views.

[eyeslikethunder]

Both lunar wolves bringing more planets into the fold and UM liberating worlds could be true.

 

They dont have the same meaning.

Liberating does suggest a existing population . maybe the UM were sent to human worlds(it would suit their nature). While others were sent to alien worlds where diplomacy was less required

 

As there are quotes suggesting many of the legions had the highest totals they all could be lies of a lost time 10000 years ago.

[Brother Immolator]

So the prevailing argument is that yes Horus was first amongst Primarchs.... Except for Guilliman?

 

I think some people might have sliggghtly biased views.

 

Why oh why would you think that?

 

Perhaps not the point you are looking for, but a Legion would have integrated Imperial Army assets and Navy assets, including ships built specially for ship-to-ship combat instead of planetary assault. (And depending on what fluff source you take as canon, robot manipals as well).

 

The Chapters do not have that.

 

And thats only the surface of it.

[Legatus]

Of course I could not have hoped to edit in a "wall of text" into my post and not expect several replies being made...

 

I had added a lengthy discussion of the sources claiming "victories" and "liberated worlds" to my previous post. Including the relevant sources I am aware of. (It should be easy to spot when you scroll up. It's the one with the wall of text.)

 

 

So the prevailing argument is that yes Horus was first amongst Primarchs.... Except for Guilliman?

Not really. Horus was the greatest of the Primarchs during the Great Crusade. That's not what the debate is about.

Edit: Well, that is what the thread is about. The discussion from the previous page was about a different tangent, though.

[Grimdarkness]

"[Guilliman's] chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and soon he led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. He succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skill and passion for efficient government. Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set up a self-supporting defence system. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people. In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12)

 

 

Off topic but makes me wonder why he was chosen to chastise Lorgar. Seems this would take some time to complete in itself.

[Ubermensch Commander]

"[Guilliman's] chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and soon he led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. He succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skill and passion for efficient government. Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set up a self-supporting defence system. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people. In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12)

 

 

Off topic but makes me wonder why he was chosen to chastise Lorgar. Seems this would take some time to complete in itself.

 

While it was not included in The First Heretic, since the exact events of Lorgar's chastising changed, an explanation was given in the big ol' Visions of *fill in blank* books.

In essence, The Emperor needed an epitome of Imperial loyalty and efficiency. Guilliman fit the bill better than any other. Look at the other largest Legion out there and seek to emulate them. Quit mucking around!

I belive this rationale may be carried over to The First Heretic though it is not explicitly stated.

Guilliman had done so much so efficiently, not only did he serve as a paragon to hold up, he had such success he could be drawn back to help with the Word Bearers, what with all those worlds under his belt. Besides, Guilliman also had the added benefit of self control and even temperament. Sinc Russ' suggestion had been "Kill 'em" when the Emperor asked the Primarch's for advice on what to do about Lorgar's faith and snail's pace conquest, we can see a calmer mind may have been necessary.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

if they listened to russ a few problems may have been avoided...

 

i kid, i kid!

 

WLK

[Legatus]

Off topic but makes me wonder why he was chosen to chastise Lorgar. Seems this would take some time to complete in itself.

Guilliman was chosen for the simple reason that Lorgar needed a justification to be angry at Guilliman. It had long been established that the Word Bearers had attacked Calth, and it had been stated in the Index Astartes Word Bearers that Lorgar had been envious of Guilliman. In "The First Heretic", A D-B set out to flesh out Lorgars motivations a bit more, including giving him more of a reason to hate him. Thus he had the Emperor send Guilliman to destroy one of Lorgar's proud cities. I was not too happy about that choice, but what can you do.

 

In terms of in-universe circumstances, Lorgar had been dropping behind in successes because he had the populations of the worlds he conquered erect massive monuments and temples to the Emperor. Guilliman on the other hand was making sure the worlds he had conquered were protected. The quote does point out that this allowed him to conquer worlds faster than other Legions did, and I have allways taken that as refering to the long run. Guilliman never had to stop to wait for reinforcements, as he had carefully set up supply lines (safe space travel routes and protected bases all along the way, and constant upply fromMacragge), and he never had to double back to defend a conquered worlds from alien attacks or newly rising rebellion, since the worlds were left well protected and in a good state.

See the Index Astartes Luna Wolves for a counter example. The Luna Wolves were often immediately moving on to the next planet once they had destroyed the opposition on one world. That left the worlds unprotected and sometimes in an uncontent state, and it is said that on several occasions new rebellions had flared up after the Luna Wolves had left. For a period of time the Luna Wolves had repeatedly had the Iron Warriors and the Ultramarines stay behind to mop up the final pockets of resistance on the worlds the Luna Wolves had just liberated.

 

E.g. imagine one of the Legions going about their Crusade efforts. The Legion conquers 8 worlds within a couple of week. After those conquests, they are left with 86% of their strength (and their Army support force is even more depleted). So they have to wait a bit/turn back to a nearest outpost, to receive new supples, which takes a few days. As they are about to continue, they receive a distress call from one of the worlds they had just liberated. The world is attacked by Ork raiders. So now they double back to not let that world fall to aliens again. This takes another week or two, after which the Legion can finally continue with their conquests.

All the while, the Ultramarines Legion had been constantly supplied and never needed to wait for reinforcements, and they also never had to rush to the protection of one of their worlds. So in the same time the Legion above had liberated 8 worlds, the Ultramarines had liberated 11, since they were not slowed down or delayed.

In a way, Guilliman was mostly so successful not because his Legion was particularly stronger in combat, but mainly because he had set up the entire operation to run smoothly and without complications.

[Coryphaus 101]

Perhaps not the point you are looking for, but a Legion would have integrated Imperial Army assets and Navy assets, including ships built specially for ship-to-ship combat instead of planetary assault. (And depending on what fluff source you take as canon, robot manipals as well).

 

The Chapters do not have that.

Incorrect. The Legions themselves didn't have attendant imperial army and navy troops/ships. The Legions simply joined expeditions that had said imperial army and navy troops/ships. The only difference between a legion and a 100 chapters is that 100 chapters don't all answer to one guy. And as I've said, there weren't many guys left capable of managing that many Space Marines.

 

Back to the original topic of this thread. Horus is so badass that the 13th Company dream if being as badass as him. He's so badass, no one can stand behind him (sorry, really bad pun). So yeah, he's more than just 'that badass'.

[Gree]

Incorrect. The Legions themselves didn't have attendant imperial army and navy troops/ships. The Legions simply joined expeditions that had said imperial army and navy troops/ships. The only difference between a legion and a 100 chapters is that 100 chapters don't all answer to one guy. And as I've said, there weren't many guys left capable of managing that many Space Marines.

 

Actually I'm quite correct. Read the 3.5 Guard Codex, Collected Visions and Battlefleet Gothic. Legiones Astartes had a chain of command over Imperial Army and Navy. They could give orders as superior officers and command specialized ship-to-ship warfare. It's noted in the 3.5 that Guard do not answer to Astartes as commanders like they did in the Great Crusade. Collected Visions flat out says that the Imperial Army fell under the Astartes command structure.

[Coryphaus 101]

Really? I knew that Space Marines had authority over inperial army/navy in the great crusade but I'm surprised to learn that still doesn't happen in the 41st millennium. Anyway, that's not an argument against chapters, it's simply a complaint against the way are run now.

[Brother Immolator]

Really? I knew that Space Marines had authority over inperial army/navy in the great crusade but I'm surprised to learn that still doesn't happen in the 41st millennium. Anyway, that's not an argument against chapters, it's simply a complaint against the way are run now.

 

Indeed they did.But those contingents were attached to the legions and fought as a secondary force in support of the astartes or preforming garrison duties.

Remember the war of horus versus the technocracy(cant remember the name in the end of the second book).The byzant Janissars were in honor regalia and all they did was march upon the ashes of the enemy after the luna wolves utterly crushed all resistance.

 

The problems that arose with space marines commanding 'mortal troops' was that the marine officers ordered them to actions one would expect from astartes.The officers were unable to comprehend that their troops were not marines as themselves and pushed them to their limits.After said observation it was decreed that no marine officers will be acting as commanders of army regiments.

[Brother Dakath]

Sinc Russ' suggestion had been "Kill 'em" when the Emperor asked the Primarch's for advice on what to do about Lorgar's faith and snail's pace conquest, we can see a calmer mind may have been necessary.

 

Actually in The First Heretic IIRC Magnus tells Lorgar that Russ had been on Lorgar's side due to the fact that Fenris is a very spiritual world, not religious but spiritual, ie. making the eye of aversion on walls and a Thousand Sons armor as well (see Prospero Burns) Magnus mentions that this was the one issue of import that he and Russ had ever agreed on.

 

Edit: A few grammatical errors.

[A D-B]

Off topic but makes me wonder why he was chosen to chastise Lorgar. Seems this would take some time to complete in itself.

Guilliman was chosen for the simple reason that Lorgar needed a justification to be angry at Guilliman. It had long been established that the Word Bearers had attacked Calth, and it had been stated in the Index Astartes Word Bearers that Lorgar had been envious of Guilliman. In "The First Heretic", A D-B set out to flesh out Lorgars motivations a bit more, including giving him more of a reason to hate him. Thus he had the Emperor send Guilliman to destroy one of Lorgar's proud cities. I was not too happy about that choice, but what can you do.

 

Joking aside, I'm not that shallow. Guilliman made the most sense for a chastisement. He had the only Legion larger than the Word Bearers; he was the one with the great and grand perfect mini-empire that served as a model of compliance; he was the one who Lorgar could (should?) have most emulated, without something as blatantly silly as "Try to be a pounding badass like your brother Horus", which would've been patently impossible for Lorgar at that stage. Guilliman was, in all ways, an example of what the Emperor wanted from Lorgar.

[MagicMan]

"Try to be a pounding badass like your brother Horus"

 

 

 

And there you have it guys, Horus was a badass. ^_^