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Was Horus really all That BadAss...?


karden00

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Interesting thread! I think its very simple-

 

most victories (meaning battles won!)-horus, the lion, russ.

 

most liberated worlds (meaning conquered worlds, not battles won!)-Guilliman.

 

Regarding horus, he was the emperors warmaster, he was a brilliant leader, motivator and diplomat. A great warrior and generally the best of all the primarchs-thats why his fall was so tragic. If horus was just average then his fall would be nowhere near as tragic in my opinion.

 

However, the Emperor is coming across as a very poor judge of character too-he has made a lot of very silly decisions in the fluff that i have read.

 

just my thoughts on the matter...

 

@ADB-nearly finished the first heretic-brilliant book! (i know you probably get this all the time). I love the emotional depth given to lorgar and the primarhs. I stopped reading BL books for a while as it all seemed to be "bolter-porn". It was nice to read something with depth...thank you. :)

Guilliman made the most sense for a chastisement. He had the only Legion larger than the Word Bearers;

That makes it sound as if Lorgar somehow had to be forced into compliance. As opposed to simply his father and Emperor telling him that he was not satisfied with his performance. An act which one can assume would have carried enough gravitas without a present threat of force. And in the Index Astartes and the Collected Visions, that is pretty much how it had been described (but of course that could have been interpreted as the extremely condensed version).

That the Emperor had Lorgar and his Legion kneel before the successful brother who had been ordered to destroy one of Lorgars cities to make a point, as opposed to simply telling Lorgar himself, also served to further cement the notion of an Emperor who didn't really have a clue about how to handle his Primarchs. A notion which had first slowly developed after the Index Astartes articles and has gained popularity with the Horus Heresy series.

In the Index Astartes and Collected Visions, the Emperor refers Lorgar to Guilliman and tells him to take him as an example. He didn't have Guilliman kick down Lorgar's sand castle, then have Lorgar kneel before Guilliman, and then told him to see Guilliman as an example. I think that was perhaps pushing it a little far.

I think you're looking too far into it. The emperor for all his great achievements, was human. Before he created his Primarchs, were there ever any beings like them to compare to? He created them yes..... but I don't really think he himself knew what to do with them sometimes.
Off topic but makes me wonder why he was chosen to chastise Lorgar. Seems this would take some time to complete in itself.

Guilliman was chosen for the simple reason that Lorgar needed a justification to be angry at Guilliman. It had long been established that the Word Bearers had attacked Calth, and it had been stated in the Index Astartes Word Bearers that Lorgar had been envious of Guilliman. In "The First Heretic", A D-B set out to flesh out Lorgars motivations a bit more, including giving him more of a reason to hate him. Thus he had the Emperor send Guilliman to destroy one of Lorgar's proud cities. I was not too happy about that choice, but what can you do.

 

Joking aside, I'm not that shallow. Guilliman made the most sense for a chastisement. He had the only Legion larger than the Word Bearers; he was the one with the great and grand perfect mini-empire that served as a model of compliance; he was the one who Lorgar could (should?) have most emulated, without something as blatantly silly as "Try to be a pounding badass like your brother Horus", which would've been patently impossible for Lorgar at that stage. Guilliman was, in all ways, an example of what the Emperor wanted from Lorgar.

/debates about how the Black Templar are supposedly doing it the way The Emperor would've wanted

 

"Try to be a pounding badass like your brother Horus"

 

 

 

And there you have it guys, Horus was a badass. :)

/thread :D

/debates about how the Black Templar are supposedly doing it the way The Emperor would've wanted

 

Every legion needs its self delusions. SW being supposed executioners, NL being bringers of justice, Ultras being exemplary legion etc.

At least one of those has the preponderance of evidence. ;)

/debates about how the Black Templar are supposedly doing it the way The Emperor would've wanted

 

Every legion needs its self delusions. SW being supposed executioners, NL being bringers of justice, Ultras being exemplary legion etc.

At least one of those has the preponderance of evidence. :(

You're right of course. Night Lords do bring justice. The others are just illusions :P

/debates about how the Black Templar are supposedly doing it the way The Emperor would've wanted

 

Every legion needs its self delusions. SW being supposed executioners, NL being bringers of justice, Ultras being exemplary legion etc.

At least one of those has the preponderance of evidence. ;)

You're right of course. Night Lords do bring justice. The others are just illusions :yes:

 

Hahahahaha! Typical Chaos, as delusional as Lorgar... ;)

You want REAL difference between Roboute and Horus?

 

Horus: "Ok World Eaters will assault that citadel, while Iron Warriors will provide covering fire. Alpha Legion agents already sabotaged citadels gates so it shouldnt be so hard. White Scars will delay their reinforcements with hit and run attacks, until Imperial Fists establish defensive line against counter-attack.

Roboute: "We will be attacking that citadel, you have to read this book and and follow its instructions to the letter."

 

(Sorry I couldnt resist :rolleyes: )

 

Edit: Spelling.

You want REAL difference between Roboute and Horus?

 

Horus: "Ok World Eaters will assault that citadel, while Iron Warriors will provide covering fire. Alpha Legion agents already sabotaged citadels gates so it shouldnt be so hard. White Scars will delay their reinforcements with hit and run attacks, until Imperial Fists establish defensive line against counter-attack.

Roboute: "We will be attacking that citadel, first with a rapid strike force, then with a prolonged siege, and after that it will be firefights within the citadel. Read this book, it contains Corax' doctrines on rapid deployment, Russ' doctrines on striking vital positions of the enemy, Perturabo's siege doctrines and Vulkan's doctrines for short range fights in enclosed spaces. That way you all have the proper tools for the job."

Fixed.

You want REAL difference between Roboute and Horus?

 

Horus: "Ok World Eaters will assault that citadel, while Iron Warriors will provide covering fire. Alpha Legion agents already sabotaged citadels gates so it shouldnt be so hard. White Scars will delay their reinforcements with hit and run attacks, until Imperial Fists establish defensive line against counter-attack.

Roboute: "We will be attacking that citadel, first with a rapid strike force, then with a prolonged siege, and after that it will be firefights within the citadel. Read this book, it contains Corax' doctrines on rapid deployment, Russ' doctrines on striking vital positions of the enemy, Perturabo's siege doctrines and Vulkan's doctrines for short range fights in enclosed spaces. That way you all have the proper tools for the job."

Fixed.

 

Captain Honoria: ‘’Alright Venatus, I have conducted the siege so far, and it’s going good. However I am confused by this manuver. It makes little sense to move the troops here.’’

 

Captain Venatus: ‘’Follow it. Question my orders and you question the Primarch.’’

 

Captain Honoria :‘’Well can you at least give me an explanation as to why this is happening? So I can understand the tactical theory at least.’’

 

Captain Venatus: ‘’No.’’

 

Captain Honoria: ‘’So let me get this straight, you want us to perform a maneuver without understanding the tactical theory behind that?’’

 

Captain Venatus: ‘’Yes.’’

 

Captain Honoria: *Takes in a deep breath and counts to ten.* ‘’Remus it’s basic military officer training to at least understand tactics before applying them in the field.’

 

Captain Venatus : ’’Yes, but we will follow the Codex on this.’’

 

Captain Honoria: ‘’Well can I at least split up Squad Primus into combat squads then?’’

 

Captain Venatus: ‘’No you may not.’’

 

Captain Honoria. ‘’Why not?’’

 

Captain Venatus: ‘’Squad Primus is still understrength at only nine Astartes from our last battle. The Codex is clear on this. Only ten man squads may be split up into combat squads.’’

 

Captain Honoria : ‘’Dude, seriously?’’

 

Captain Venatus: ‘’Yes seriously, if you can’t play by the man’s rules then you don’t have any place in the Ultramarines. We don't need any shady characters in this outfit.’’

 

Captain Honoria: ‘’I don’t know, that seems to be needlessly petty and restrictive to me.’’

 

Roboute Guilliman: ‘’Well you aren’t supposed to follow the Codex literally. You have to use your instincts. Because some elements might seem petty and restrictive, unworthy of the mind of a Primarch, so you have to learn to ignore them.’’

 

Venatus and Honoria: *together* ‘’Now we know.’’

 

Guilliman: *smiles and nods.* ‘’And knowing is half the battle.’’

i have called miss cleo, and have predicted Legatus's answer:

 

These guidelines have [i]evolved over the centuries[/i], and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history

 

This implies that people have added to the Codex Astartes, and any notion of pettiness have come from them. Nothing unperfect ever came from Guilliman, who emitted sunbeams from his eyes and a fresh, cool breeze from his ass. Humanity would be at peace if they could only emulate the perfectness of Guilliman and his Ultramarines.

 

end answer.

 

WLK

i have called miss cleo, and have predicted Legatus's answer:

 

These guidelines have [i]evolved over the centuries[/i], and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history

 

This implies that people have added to the Codex Astartes, and any notion of pettiness have come from them. Nothing unperfect ever came from Guilliman, who emitted sunbeams from his eyes and a fresh, cool breeze from his ass. Humanity would be at peace if they could only emulate the perfectness of Guilliman and his Ultramarines.

 

end answer.

 

WLK

 

Somehow I think you might be right.

 

Of course, when one complains about the modern treatment of the Codex in the 41st millennium. (Like for example Ventris) one must always remember back to that little quote I posted. No matter how some certain posters may wish to pretend otherwise, the Codex Astartes does contain petty and restrictive elements.

i have called miss cleo, and have predicted Legatus's answer:

Holy moly, you're right.

 

 

The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch. Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day. As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Let's look closer.

 

Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch.

And now let's back off just a little bit:

 

"These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch."

 

The problem with Ultramarine lore is that the exact nature of the Codex is rarely described, and Ultramarine doctrine is only briefly described as "they follow the Codex to the letter".

So what if the venerated Admiral Kerfuffle had been honoured in 951.M41 to have his battle report and extensive analysis implemented into the Codex Astartes? That was only 48 years ago. Would the Ultramarines feel bound to follow all of Admiral Kerfuffle's suggestions to the letter, as they would follow the texts of their Primarch? If you just took the brief description of "the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter", then you would probably say yes. But if you thought about it for a minute, it would probably seem a little odd to you. Perhaps all those countless battle reports and analyses that have been added over the past millennia aren't seen as mandatory, and merely serve to educate? Perhaps, as I would assume, the Codex contains the "doctrines", which had largely been established in M31 and include the tactics of the Primarchs, and are only rarely added to when a new threat such as the Tyranids are encountered. And then it contains the "battle reports", which have been added from all kinds of sources (not just Astartes, but also Guard and Navy), and are meant to grant the Marines insight into encountered foes, and examples of tactics that worked well, or not so well. So when the description states that they "follow the Codex to the letter", that refers to the combat doctrines, as set up by Roboute Guilliman, and composed of the best tactics of all the Primarchs, but not so much that they feel the need to follow every general or admiral's advice he may have given in his battle reports, no matter how gifted or venerated that general or admiral had been (after all, his treatise had been included in the Codex.)

 

Here are a few quotes of the Ultramarines' adherence to the Codex:

 

"They are an extremely disciplined Chapter, and stick religiously to the rules for uniform markings and organisation laid down thousands of years ago by the Emperor."

("Ultra Marines" Boardgame, Ultramarine Scout Squad card)

 

"The Ultramarines however have retained every detail of the Codex Astartes intact and have become famous for their rigid adherance to its ancient orthodoxy."

(Armies of the Imperium, p. 8)

 

"Not all Chapters follow the strict organisdational and tactical guidelines of the Codex Astartes. Those that do are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters. These Space Marines adhere to the Codex as the model for their organisation and identification markings. Of all the Codex Chapter the oldest and most famous is the Ultramarines, the Chapter of Roboute Guilliman himself."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 10)

 

"Other Chapters may freely interpret the words of Guilliman but, to the Ultramarines, such deviation is unthinkable."

(3rd Edition Index Astartes Ultramarines, 'Combat Doctrine')

 

"In battle, the Ultramarines follow the teachings of Guilliman, fighting with all the strength and ferocity of their legendary Primarch."

(3rd Edition Index Astartes Ultramarines, 'Beliefs')

 

"The Ultramarines are the epitome of a Codex Chapter, following the letter of their Primarch's holy tome, the Codex Astartes"

(4th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 74)

 

 

The first two quotes (from "Ultra Marines" and "Armies of the Imperium") are "pre Codex Ultramarines", where the Codex had not yet been attributed to Roboute Guilliman. But those two quoted refer to "ancient orthodoxy" and "rules laid down thousands of years ago". The two quotes from the Ultramarines Index Astartes are perhaps the most specific, stating that the Ultramarines strictly follow the "words of Guilliman" and the "teachings of Guilliman".

The quote from the Codex Ultramarines is less specific, but it refers specifically to adherence to "organisational and tactical guidelines". If these had all mainly been laid down ten thousand years ago by Roboute Guilliman, and all the battle reports are not seen as strictly binding, then it would perhaps match the other quotes above.

The quote from the 4th Edition Codex Space Marines is the most broad, stating that they follow "the Codex" to the letter. This would suggest that they would feel bound to follow the suggestions of anyone who had subsequently added material to the Codex. However, most of the other quotes seem to support that the Ultramarines would specifically adhere to the material established by Roboute Guilliman, and would then perhaps not feel quite as attached to material that had been added later.

It has long been my assumption that new organisational and tactical doctrines would not really be added to the Codex Astartes that often anyway, since that had all pretty much been established by Roboute Guilliman ten thousand years ago. His words are not altered, as that would be sacrilegious, and what has been mainly added over the past millennia are probably battle reports and analyses.

If you just took the brief description of "the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter", then you would probably say yes.

 

It's not just a brief description but the entire point of their chapter.

 

*Stuff I already know*

 

So as far as I understand you are trying to say that the Ultramarines might not nessecarily follow the elements that are not by Guilliman to the letter then?

 

However we have a solid quote on that some of the elements are petty and restrictive. If those parts came from the Non-Guilliman sources then by your logic they would be more like guidelines and not restrictive at all. But we have restrictive elements in the codex. Therefore I have to assume that Guilliman included elements that would seem outdated and restrictive to the modern day officer, or even an Ultramairnes officer of the Heresy era.

However we have a solid quote on that some of the elements are petty and restrictive. If those parts came from the Non-Guilliman sources then by your logic they would be more like guidelines and not restrictive at all.

The tactical doctrines are described as "guidelines" anyway ("These guidelines have evolved over the centuries..."), but we can assume that the Ultramarines follow all the suggestions. At least those from Guilliman. Guidelines can be phrased restrictive, but can then be ignored.

However we have a solid quote on that some of the elements are petty and restrictive. If those parts came from the Non-Guilliman sources then by your logic they would be more like guidelines and not restrictive at all.

The tactical doctrines are described as "guidelines" anyway ("These guidelines have evolved over the centuries..."), but we can assume that the Ultramarines follow all the suggestions. At least those from Guilliman. Guidelines can be phrased restrictive, but can then be ignored.

 

If they can be ignored then they obviously are not restrictive then.

 

A guideline is not a strict rule and thus can't really be restrictive.

A google search for "restrictive guidelines" will turn up quite some results. *shrug*

 

I did that and got a bunch of stuff about Ob-gyns and their conduct. I had no idea Guilliman performed work on women. He truly is a good multitasker.

 

A search on the defintions of restrictions and guidelines also turned up more interesting results.

 

Of course we still have the whole petty issue on top of that.

 

You would agree that guidelines can be ignored correct?

 

So then, one would be fine with Tyranid Hunters then.

The problem with Ultramarine lore is that the exact nature of the Codex is rarely described, and Ultramarine doctrine is only briefly described as "they follow the Codex to the letter".

So what if the venerated Admiral Kerfuffle had been honoured in 951.M41 to have his battle report and extensive analysis implemented into the Codex Astartes? That was only 48 years ago. Would the Ultramarines feel bound to follow all of Admiral Kerfuffle's suggestions to the letter, as they would follow the texts of their Primarch? If you just took the brief description of "the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter", then you would probably say yes. But if you thought about it for a minute, it would probably seem a little odd to you. Perhaps all those countless battle reports and analyses that have been added over the past millennia aren't seen as mandatory, and merely serve to educate? Perhaps, as I would assume, the Codex contains the "doctrines", which had largely been established in M31 and include the tactics of the Primarchs, and are only rarely added to when a new threat such as the Tyranids are encountered. And then it contains the "battle reports", which have been added from all kinds of sources (not just Astartes, but also Guard and Navy), and are meant to grant the Marines insight into encountered foes, and examples of tactics that worked well, or not so well. So when the description states that they "follow the Codex to the letter", that refers to the combat doctrines, as set up by Roboute Guilliman, and composed of the best tactics of all the Primarchs, but not so much that they feel the need to follow every general or admiral's advice he may have given in his battle reports, no matter how gifted or venerated that general or admiral had been (after all, his treatise had been included in the Codex.)

 

Here are a few quotes of the Ultramarines' adherence to the Codex:

 

"They are an extremely disciplined Chapter, and stick religiously to the rules for uniform markings and organisation laid down thousands of years ago by the Emperor."

("Ultra Marines" Boardgame, Ultramarine Scout Squad card)

 

"The Ultramarines however have retained every detail of the Codex Astartes intact and have become famous for their rigid adherance to its ancient orthodoxy."

(Armies of the Imperium, p. 8)

 

"Not all Chapters follow the strict organisdational and tactical guidelines of the Codex Astartes. Those that do are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters. These Space Marines adhere to the Codex as the model for their organisation and identification markings. Of all the Codex Chapter the oldest and most famous is the Ultramarines, the Chapter of Roboute Guilliman himself."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 10)

 

"Other Chapters may freely interpret the words of Guilliman but, to the Ultramarines, such deviation is unthinkable."

(3rd Edition Index Astartes Ultramarines, 'Combat Doctrine')

 

"In battle, the Ultramarines follow the teachings of Guilliman, fighting with all the strength and ferocity of their legendary Primarch."

(3rd Edition Index Astartes Ultramarines, 'Beliefs')

 

"The Ultramarines are the epitome of a Codex Chapter, following the letter of their Primarch's holy tome, the Codex Astartes"

(4th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 74)

 

The first two quotes (from "Ultra Marines" and "Armies of the Imperium") are "pre Codex Ultramarines", where the Codex had not yet been attributed to Roboute Guilliman. But those two quoted refer to "ancient orthodoxy" and "rules laid down thousands of years ago". The two quotes from the Ultramarines Index Astartes are perhaps the most specific, stating that the Ultramarines strictly follow the "words of Guilliman" and the "teachings of Guilliman".

The quote from the Codex Ultramarines is less specific, but it refers specifically to adherence to "organisational and tactical guidelines". If these had all mainly been laid down ten thousand years ago by Roboute Guilliman, and all the battle reports are not seen as strictly binding, then it would perhaps match the other quotes above.

The quote from the 4th Edition Codex Space Marines is the most broad, stating that they follow "the Codex" to the letter. This would suggest that they would feel bound to follow the suggestions of anyone who had subsequently added material to the Codex. However, most of the other quotes seem to support that the Ultramarines would specifically adhere to the material established by Roboute Guilliman, and would then perhaps not feel quite as attached to material that had been added later.

It has long been my assumption that new organisational and tactical doctrines would not really be added to the Codex Astartes that often anyway, since that had all pretty much been established by Roboute Guilliman ten thousand years ago. His words are not altered, as that would be sacrilegious, and what has been mainly added over the past millennia are probably battle reports and analyses.

 

 

Whilst your point about not-Primarchs entries into the Codex is fine with me, something that is odd is this:

The Codex is this supreme book of military wisdom and it gives freedom to those who follow it. Right?

 

So all the language GW uses in the Ultramarines employing that wisdom and freedom is odd and backwards. I am not trying to make a point about the UM and their fighting prowess as a result of following the Codex.

 

My point is, if something is freeing, you don't "follow the strict organisational and tactical guidelines of the Codex Astartes."

 

If something gets you away from the "inherent stubborness" of Imperial Fists, pre-Codex, you don't then write this: "Other Chapters may freely interpret the words of Guilliman but, to the Ultramarines, such deviation is unthinkable"

How can you not freely interpret something, yet not be stubborn?

 

"The Ultramarines are the epitome of a Codex Chapter, following the letter of their Primarch's holy tome, the Codex Astartes"

How can you follow something to the letter, yet not be lawyeristic or 'religious' about it?

 

GW confuses the issue with odd word choices, imo.

 

If they'd said "fully embrace the wisdom" that would make sense.

If they'd said "meticulously study and meditate on the principles and teachings" that would work too.

 

But the language they use is of slavishness to it, which seems highly odd when talking about wisdom, freedom of tactical thinking, etc.

 

Thoughts?

 

And I'm not talking about McNeill's books either :D

You would agree that guidelines can be ignored correct?

I qould probably make a distinction between "guidelines by Roboute Guilliman" and "guidelines by some Lord General who had added his accounts to the Codex".

 

That is not what I am asking. You would agree that guidelines are not really actual rules but are to be followed at the user's discretion? If one wants to a guideline can be ignored?

 

You have seen

right?

Marshal Wilhelm:

Whilst your point about not-Primarchs entries into the Codex is fine with me, something that is odd is this:

The Codex is this supreme book of military wisdom and it gives freedom to those who follow it. Right?

 

So all the language GW uses in the Ultramarines employing that wisdom and freedom is odd and backwards. I am not trying to make a point about the UM and their fighting prowess as a result of following the Codex.

 

My point is, if something is freeing, you don't "follow the strict organisational and tactical guidelines of the Codex Astartes."

You are of course correct in that GW does not allways give the most unambiguous descriptions. The quotes about the Ultramarines' doctrine is testament to that. "They follow the words of Guilliman" and "they follow the Codex" (to which others have contributed long after Guilliman's demise) are not fully equivalent, and one will lead to different interpretations than the other.

 

But let me give an example about the dichotomy of "strictness" and "flexibility" in the Codex: A Battle Company has a mix of units, focusing mainly on the versatile Tactical squads and including a few of the two specialised squads. That set up is intended to allow a single Battle Company to deal competently with any kind of threat. However, the set up of a Battle Company is strictly specified in the Codex Astartes, and requires that it consist of the six Tactical squads and two of each specialised squad. The doctrine is "restrictive", since it dictates a specific organization, but it also gives the force flexibility, by being intent on allowing the force to deal with all kinds of situations.

 

Or take this simple phrase as an example: "In each encounter, allways use the tactic that is most suitable." The phrase is strict, as it is plainly instructive ("allways use X..."), but what it instructs is to use any kind of tactic, as long as it is suitable. A Commander in 100 encounters could employ 100 different tactics. But he would not be free to use any tactic he wanted, he would have to use the optimal tactic. He would not be free, for example, to use a lot of bikes simply because he liked the use of bikes, if that situation would not really be suitable for it.

 

In other words, if the "restriction" of the Codex Astartes is that unfavourable approaches cannot be used, and if the "strict dictates" are to use the most suitable approaches, then the "strict Codex" will still allow for a wide variety of tactical approaches. Virtually each situation would call for a different approach, after all.

 

A Codex Captain is not at liberty to change the layout of his company. But the layout is supposed to offer the greatest amount of versatility.

 

A specific situation does not allow for any arbitrary tactical approach. The Codex will suggest a (or perhaps give multiple) suitable approach. But that approach is supposed to be the most effective and statistically most advantageous for the current situation.

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