Was Horus really all That BadAss...?

[Legatus]

That is not what I am asking. You would agree that guidelines are not really actual rules but are to be followed at the user's discretion? If one wants to a guideline can be ignored?

Yes, I would agree to that.

 

And the tactical and organisational guidelines in the Codex Astartes are indeed not described as mandatory in the Codex Ultramarines. Only the decrees (such as Chapter size and recruitment procedures) are mandatory. However, those Chapters described as "Codex Chapters" generally do follow all the guidelines, and the Ultramarines in particular are said to do so.

[Gree]

That is not what I am asking. You would agree that guidelines are not really actual rules but are to be followed at the user's discretion? If one wants to a guideline can be ignored?

Yes, I would agree to that.

 

And the tactical and organisational guidelines in the Codex Astartes are indeed not described as mandatory in the Codex Ultramarines. Only the decrees (such as Chapter size and recruitment procedures) are mandatory. However, those Chapters described as "Codex Chapters" generally do follow all the guidelines, and the Ultramarines in particular are said to do so.

 

I see then, according to your logic a Captain would be able to change the layout of his company then just fine.

 

A Codex Captain is not at liberty to change the layout of his company. But the layout is supposed to offer the greatest amount of versatility.

 

After all, they are just guidelines. If said Captain really wanted to the Codex would give him advice not to change the company but he would if he really wanted to then right?

 

And you would of course have no objection to the existance of Tyranid Hunters right? As Guilliman's dicates are only guidelines that can be ignored by the Ultramarines as needed.

 

And of course we run into the contridiction of guidelines being restrictive. Since we have both agreed that guidelines can be ignored they really can't be restrictive then now can they?

[Legatus]

I see then, according to your logic a Captain would be able to change the layout of his company then just fine.

I believe that's what the Iron Hands and the Salamanders are doing.

 

 

After all, they are just guidelines. If said Captain really wanted to the Codex would give him advice not to change the company but he would if he really wanted to then right?

If the Captain decided to not follow the guidelines, then he could absolutely do that.

 

 

And you would of course have no objection to the existance of Tyranid Hunters right? As Guilliman's dicates are only guidelines that can be ignored by the Ultramarines as needed.

The Ultramarines are a Codex Chapter, which is defined as those Chapters who are strictly following the guidelines. The Ultramarines in particular are said to be very strict about it.

 

 

And of course we run into the contridiction of guidelines being restrictive. Since we have both agreed that guidelines can be ignored they really can't be restrictive then now can they?

"If an Ork charges you, shoot him with your boltgun."

 

"If an Ork charges you, shooting him is a good idea. But other actions might work too."

 

One of those guidelines is restrictive, the other is not.

[Gree]

I believe that's what the Iron Hands and the Salamanders are doing.

 

And yet you just stated that they.......can't.

 

Odd.

 

If the Captain decided to not follow the guidelines, then he could absolutely do that.

 

Then you should have no problems with the existance of the Tyranid Hunters then or the actions of Uriel Ventris? Going by your own logic.

 

But then again we have the whole contridiction of guidelines and restrictions. If someone puts a restriction on me then I can't just ignore that can I? Rules are meant to be folllowed right?

[Legatus]

See the Edits to my previous post.

 

Edit:

"Not all Chapters follow the strict organisational and tactical guidelines of the Codex Astartes. Those that do are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters. These Space Marines adhere to the Codex as the model for their organisation and identification markings. Of all the Codex Chapters the oldest and most famous is the Ultramarines, the Chapter of the Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 10)

 

That should answer all your questions regarding Tyranid Hunters.

 

Of cours eI know that you knew this. I am merely quoting it so other people can read it too.

[Gree]

The Ultramarines are a Codex Chapter, which is defined as those Chapters who are strictly following the guidelines. The Ultramarines in particular are said to be very strict about it.

 

That does not answer my question. Since a Codex Chapter consists of guidelines that can be ignored at the Ultramairnes discretion (as we have both ageed on) then the existance of the Tyranid Hunters should not be a problem at all then.

 

"If an Ork charges you, shoot him with your boltgun."

 

"If an Ork charges you, shooting him is a good idea. But other actions might work too."

 

One of those guidelines is restrictive, the other is not.

 

No, one of those is a rule and leaves no room for interpretation. The other is a guideline which offers room to ignore it if nessecary.

[Legatus]

The Ultramarines are a Codex Chapter, which is defined as those Chapters who are strictly following the guidelines. The Ultramarines in particular are said to be very strict about it.

That does not answer my question. Since a Codex Chapter consists of guidelines that can be ignored at the Ultramairnes discretion (as we have both ageed on) then the existance of the Tyranid Hunters should not be a problem at all then.

I agreed that guidelines can be ignored. Whether Ultramarines ignore guidelines is a different matter. And according to the definition of Codex Chapters, they don't. So, yes, that actually answers your question. Tyranid Hunters are a problem because the Ultramarines are said to strictly follow the organisational guidelines of the Codex. Guidelines which other, non-Codex Chapters are at liberty to ignore.

 

 

"If an Ork charges you, shoot him with your boltgun."

 

"If an Ork charges you, shooting him is a good idea. But other actions might work too."

 

One of those guidelines is restrictive, the other is not.

No, one of those is a rule and leaves no room for interpretation. The other is a guideline which offers room to ignore it if nessecary.

Write a thousand of such "guidelines" and see how long you can keep up writing "it is generally best to..." or "if at all possible, try to...". You will very quickly fall into a pattern of "if X, do Y", with a note in the introduction that these are all suggestions and guidelines.

[Gree]

I agreed that guidelines can be ignored. Whether Ultramarines ignore guidelines is a different matter. And according to the definition of Codex Chapters, they don't. So, yes, that actually answers your question. Tyranid Hunters are a problem because the Ultramarines are said to strictly follow the organisational guidelines of the Codex. Guidelines which other, non-Codex Chapters are at liberty to ignore.

 

Unfortunately that is a contradiction in terms. If guidelines cannot be ignored then they are no longer guidelines but rules.

 

Guidelines, if needed, can be ignored. We have agreed on that. If the Ultramarines cannot ignore guidelines then they are obviously no longer cannotlines and are now rules. If the Ultramarines are not following rules and are just following guideliens then the Tyranid Hunters are not a problem.

 

Write a thousand of such "guidelines" and see how long you can keep up writing "it is generally best to..." or "if at all possible, try to...". You will very quickly fall into a pattern of "if X, do Y", with a note in the introduction that these are all suggestions and guidelines.

 

That can be ignored. But wait, the Ultramarines can't ignore those things. Thus if they run into a problem that the Codex does not cover......well I guess those things are petty and restrictive now aren’t they?

 

There is no point in putting them as suggestions and guidelines if said suggestions and guidelines cannot be ignored.

[Legatus]

Unfortunately that is a contradiction in terms. If guidelines cannot be ignored then they are no longer guidelines but rules.

They can be. But they aren't.

 

There are Chapters that aren't strictly following the guidelines. Those Chapters that do follow them are referred to as "Codex Chapters". I am sure you have heard the term before.

 

"Not all Chapters follow the strict organisational and tactical guidelines of the Codex Astartes. Those that do are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters. These Space Marines adhere to the Codex as the model for their organisation and identification markings. Of all the Codex Chapters the oldest and most famous is the Ultramarines, the Chapter of the Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 10)

 

Of course you knew that. It's just for the benefit of the casual reader.

 

 

That can be ignored. But wait, the Ultramarines can't ignore those things.

They don't ignore those things. That is not the same as "can't". The Ultramarines do not strictly adhere to the teachings of Guilliman because someone forces or mandates them to. They follow them because it's from their own Primarch.

 

 

Thus if they run into a problem that the Codex does not cover...

Then it would be impossible to disobey the suggestions of the Codex, since the Codex would have no suggestions for this situation. Great, isn't it?

[Gree]

Unfortunately that is a contradiction in terms. If guidelines cannot be ignored then they are no longer guidelines but rules.

They can be. But they aren't.

 

If they aren't then they are rules then. One cannot really get around that. If the Ultramairnes cannot ignore said guidelines and suggestions then they are rules, plain and simple.

 

They don't ignore those things. That is not the same as "can't".

 

It is for all practical purposes.

 

Then it would be impossible to disobey the suggestions of the Codex, since the Codex would have no suggestions for this situation. Great, isn't it?

 

That would hold true if the codex contained suggestions. However we have the whole ''petty and restrictive'' comment to consider.

 

If it was impossible to disobey the Codex's ''suggestions'' then it would be impossible for the Codex to contain petty and restrictive elements.

 

And yet it does. Therefore at least some of those suggestions, or perhaps all in certain cases, are restrictive and petty.

 

But then again they are not suggestions at all, as a suggestion would have the option of ignoring it. As the Ultramarines do not ignore these ''suggestions'' they cannot be suggestions for practical purposes of this discussion.

[Legatus]

They can be. But they aren't.

If they aren't then they are rules then. One cannot really get around that. If the Ultramairnes cannot ignore said guidelines and suggestions then they are rules, plain and simple.

They can.

 

But they don't.

 

If one chooses to adhere to all guidelines, the guidelines are still guidelines. One's own strict adherence to them is not due to the guidelines not being guidelines, but due to one's own choice.

 

There are Chapters that do not feel obliged to follow all the guidelines in the Codex. And there are other Chapters that do. Those that do are then "restricted" by them (as in not being able to alter the Battle Company layout, for example), while those that do not are not "restricted".

 

 

Then it would be impossible to disobey the suggestions of the Codex, since the Codex would have no suggestions for this situation. Great, isn't it?

That would hold true if the codex contained suggestions. However we have the whole ''petty and restrictive'' comment to consider.

 

If it was impossible to disobey the Codex's ''suggestions'' then it would be impossible for the Codex to contain petty and restrictive elements.

What does that have to do with situations that are not covered by the Codex? But anyway, guidelines can be restrictive in their application. Something does not have to be mandatory to be restrictive. Handcuffs are restricting. If you don't put them on, they are still restrictive in their application. That you are not wearing them does not mean that they are not restrictive.

If a guideline says that you should do this and that, it can be restrictive.

 

 

And yet it does. Therefore at least some of those suggestions, or perhaps all in certain cases, are restrictive and petty.

 

But then again they are not suggestions at all, as a suggestion would have the option of ignoring it. As the Ultramarines do not ignore these ''suggestions'' they cannot be suggestions for practical purposes of this discussion.

For the purpose of this discussion, I assume that the restrictive and petty guidelines come mainly from the later contributors, and that the contributions of later authors are not held to the same high standard as the original treatises by the Primarchs.

[Gree]

They can.

 

But they don't.

 

Then they become rules.

 

If one chooses to adhere to all guidelines, the guidelines are still guidelines. One's own strict adherence to them is not due to the guidelines not being guidelines, but due to one's own choice.

 

Guidelines can be ignored. If the Ultramarines never ignore the guidelines of their own choice then they are rules for all practical purposes.

 

What does that have to do with situations that are not covered by the Codex?

 

Everything as I outlined in my last post.

 

But anyway, guidelines can be restrictive in their application. Something does not have to be mandatory to be restrictive. Handcuffs are restricting. If you don't put them on, they are still restrictive in their application. That you are not wearing them does not mean that they are not restrictive.

 

That is a poor example. Putting them on is a choice. If I am not wearing the handcuff then obviously I cannot be restricted by them. Following the guidelines is a choice, except when they can't refuse them.

 

If said guidelines can be ignored they would not be petty or restrictive. The wording is petty and restrictive. Not petty and restrictive if one chooses to apply them but can ignore then if they wish.

 

Of course if the Ultramarines choose not to ignore the ''guidelines'' then logically they would end up obeying said petty and restrictive guidelines eventually now would't they?

 

For the purpose of this discussion, I assume that the restrictive and petty guidelines come mainly from the later contributors, and that the contributions of later authors are not held to the same high standard as the original treatises by the Primarchs.

 

If they came from later contributors then they would be most battle reports and commentaries and suchlike (By your logic). Hardly restrictive and petty if one does not have to follow them even amoung the Ultramarines.

 

There is of course no proof at all that the petty and restrictive elements did not come from a Primarch.

 

But of course we have this quote.

 

Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch.

 

If they were susposedly written by other contributors then they would not be compared with that of the Primarch's mind as this quote obviously implies.

 

Interesting enough this next sentence is the one that describes the commentaries of of the commnders.

 

Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day.

 

Your opinion in this matter is well...........your opinion and not something stated in the text itself or even implied really.

[Saa]

@Gree.....for someone who repeatedly bangs on about his hallowed "I always post from a neutral stance" you're baiting Legatus pretty hard especially regarding Tyranid Hunters.

 

@Legatus

 

Thus if they run into a problem that the Codex does not cover...

Then it would be impossible to disobey the suggestions of the Codex, since the Codex would have no suggestions for this situation. Great, isn't it?

 

You just shot yourself in the foot regarding....*cough* Tyranid Hunters dude.............

 

Saa

[Gree]

@Gree.....for someone who repeatedly bangs on about his hallowed "I always post from a neutral stance" you're baiting Legatus pretty hard especially regarding Tyranid Hunters.

 

How exactly am I baiting him? By asking him a valid question?

[Saa]

@Gree.....for someone who repeatedly bangs on about his hallowed "I always post from a neutral stance" you're baiting Legatus pretty hard especially regarding Tyranid Hunters.

 

How exactly am I baiting him? By asking him a valid question?

 

Asking a valid question and maintaining neutrality are not necessarily the same thing. There's at least three refs to Tyranid Hunters directly aimed at someone that you know has issues with this element of UM lore which is clearly not neutral :cuss

 

Edit : spelling phailure

[Gree]

@Gree.....for someone who repeatedly bangs on about his hallowed "I always post from a neutral stance" you're baiting Legatus pretty hard especially regarding Tyranid Hunters.

 

How exactly am I baiting him? By asking him a valid question?

 

Asking a valid question and maintaining neutrality are not necessarily the same thing. There's at least three refs to Tyranid Hunters directly aimed at someone that you know has issues with this element of UM lore which is clearly not neutral :cuss

 

That is your opinion I'm afriad. I of course approach everything in a neutral, calculated mannner.

 

Although I do thank you for your little insight into Legatus's comment.

[Saa]

@Gree.....for someone who repeatedly bangs on about his hallowed "I always post from a neutral stance" you're baiting Legatus pretty hard especially regarding Tyranid Hunters.

 

How exactly am I baiting him? By asking him a valid question?

 

Asking a valid question and maintaining neutrality are not necessarily the same thing. There's at least three refs to Tyranid Hunters directly aimed at someone that you know has issues with this element of UM lore which is clearly not neutral :cuss

 

That is your opinion I'm afriad. I of course approach everything in a neutral, calculated mannner.

 

Although I do thank you for your little insight into Legatus's comment.

 

I thank you. that's MY attempt at neutrality :cuss

[Legatus]

Guidelines can be ignored. If the Ultramarines never ignore the guidelines of their own choice then they are rules for all practical purposes.

I guess we can agree that the Ultramarines use them as rules.

 

 

What does that have to do with situations that are not covered by the Codex?

Everything as I outlined in my last post.

Somehow I cannot seem to find any points adressing situations that are not covered by the Codex in your previous post (post #137).

 

 

That is a poor example. Putting them on is a choice. If I am not wearing the handcuff then obviously I cannot be restricted by them. Following the guidelines is a choice, except when they can't refuse them.

Why is it a bad example? Handcuffs are restricting. That is a general statement about handcuffs. Someone who was not wearing the handcuffs would not be restricted by them. But someone who did wear them would be.

Guidelines can be restricting. Again, a general statement about guidelines. Someone not adhering to the guidelines would not be restricted by what they said. But someone who did adhere to them would be.

 

 

If said guidelines can be ignored they would not be petty or restrictive. The wording is petty and restrictive. Not petty and restrictive if one chooses to apply them but can ignore then if they wish.

They can be petty and restrictive even if one is not obliged to adhere to them. That is made explicitely clear in the very next paragraph. "Not all Chapters follow the strict organisational and tactical guidelines of the Codex Astartes." So those "petty and restrictive" guidelines would not restrict those Chapters. It is likely that the Ultramarines, and other Codex Chapters do adhere to those petty and restrictive guidelines. But it is also still possible that they don't, and that the original texts and the later added treatises are not seen as equivalent. Though the description of the Codex and the conventions of its use are described too brief to conclusively say one way or the other.

 

 

If they came from later contributors then they would be most battle reports and commentaries and suchlike (By your logic). Hardly restrictive and petty if one does not have to follow them even amoung the Ultramarines.

 

There is of course no proof at all that the petty and restrictive elements did not come from a Primarch.

 

But of course we have this quote.

 

Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch.

If they were susposedly written by other contributors then they would not be compared with that of the Primarch's mind as this quote obviously implies.

 

Interesting enough this next sentence is the one that describes the commentaries of of the commnders.

 

Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day.

If they were written by other contributors it would absolutely make sense to briefly compare them to the original texts of the Primarchs. If, for example, they did not quite measure up to the original treatises.

 

The "others" in that statement refers to "contents", not other authors, as that had been the subject of the preceeding sentence. "Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive (...). Others describe actual battle reports (...)." Though I am not sure that was what made you say that the next sentence would specifically adress the contributions of other commanders.

 

The previous nine paragraphs to that passage had described the most important elements of the Codex (the splitting of the Legions and the controlled recruitment of Marines), and specifically mention Guilliman's authorship. The sentence about the "petty and restrictive" seeming contents is immediately preceeded by the information that the Codex had been added on to over the centuries, and that the Codex of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise with articles from hundreds of military thinkers. It then goes on to point out that some of the Codex's contents seem petty and restrictive, and hardly worth of Guilliman's mind. That does seem to indicate that the just mentioned hundreds of contributors are to blame for the petty and restrictive contents.

 

 

Edit:

 

Saa:

You just shot yourself in the foot regarding....*cough* Tyranid Hunters dude...

While the Codex does not provide tactics for fighting Tyranids, it does explain how the squads of a Chapter are organised. And of course the background descriptions for the Tyrannic War Veterans all flat out explain that "they are perhaps a deviation from the Codex, but the Ultramarines tolerate them regardless, because..."

 

And, yeah, the "gotcha" setup was pretty obvious. :cuss

[Gree]

I guess we can agree that the Ultramarines use them as rules.

We can agree that Ultramarines use them as rules.

 

Somehow I cannot seem to find any points adressing situations that are not covered by the Codex in your previous post (post #137).

 

That is unfortunate. Do you lack reading comprehension?

 

Why is it a bad example? Handcuffs are restricting.

 

When you put them on.

 

Guidelines can be restricting. Again, a general statement about guidelines. Someone not adhering to the guidelines would not be restricted by what they said. But someone who did adhere to them would be.

 

So you agree with me then?

 

So those "petty and restrictive" guidelines would not restrict those Chapters. It is likely that the Ultramarines, and other Codex Chapters do adhere to those petty and restrictive guidelines. But it is also still possible that they don't, and that the original texts and the later added treatises are not seen as equivalent. Though the description of the Codex and the conventions of its use are described too brief to conclusively say one way or the other.

 

Ah, so you would concede the point that some elements of the Codex may be petty and restrictive.

 

Since, as what you are saying, the Ultramarines follow even the petty and restrictive elements of the Codex, then that perfectly explains the actions of Uriel Ventris and the Ultramarines’s own instance on following petty and restrictive rules. One can conclude that Ventris simply ran into those petty and restrictive elements.

 

If they were written by other contributors it would absolutely make sense to briefly compare them to the original texts of the Primarchs. If, for example, they did not quite measure up to the original treatises.

 

If that fact was a given then why note that only some of it is ‘’petty and restrictive?’’ If they where not quite up to measure by any logic then there would be no need to reference it like that.

 

The "others" in that statement refers to "contents", not other authors, as that had been the subject of the preceeding sentence. "Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive (...). Others describe actual battle reports (...)." Though I am not sure that was what made you say that the next sentence would specifically adress the contributions of other commanders.

 

It does so right in that sentence.

 

Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day.

 

Bolded for your benefit.

 

The previous nine paragraphs to that passage had described the most important elements of the Codex (the splitting of the Legions and the controlled recruitment of Marines), and specifically mention Guilliman's authorship. The sentence about the "petty and restrictive" seeming contents is immediately preceeded by the information that the Codex had been added on to over the centuries, and that the Codex of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise with articles from hundreds of military thinkers. It then goes on to point out that some of the Codex's contents seem petty and restrictive, and hardly worth of Guilliman's mind. That does seem to indicate that the just mentioned hundreds of contributors are to blame for the petty and restrictive contents.

 

No that does not at all. As I pointed out before, you have no proof that the ‘’petty and restrictive comments’’ came from then.

 

The wording is thus:

 

Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch.

 

Note ‘’contents’’ in other words part of the codex. The sentence preceding that is irrelevant in changing the meaning of the second sentence.

 

You can claim there is an implication. You can put forth your opinion on things. But you really have no proof.

 

While the Codex does not provide tactics for fighting Tyranids,

 

If the Codex does not provide tactics for fighting Tyranids then one go outside the Codex since it offers no suggestions.

 

But one cannot do that. We have enough quotes on the Ultramairnes adhering ridgedly to it's pages that going outside it would be a bad thing.

 

it does explain how the squads of a Chapter are organised.

 

Said organizational elements are noted to be guidelines. But if they truely where guidelines then the Ultramarines could ignore them. But since they don't they are effectively rules.

[Legatus]

Somehow I cannot seem to find any points adressing situations that are not covered by the Codex in your previous post (post #137).

That is unfortunate. Do you lack reading comprehension?

Apparently. So, why not be a sportsman and quote the statement from post #137 that adresses how a Codex Chapter would deal with problems the Codes does not cover? That would be very considerate.

 

I assume it is somewhere hidden in here:

That would hold true if the codex contained suggestions. However we have the whole ''petty and restrictive'' comment to consider.

 

If it was impossible to disobey the Codex's ''suggestions'' then it would be impossible for the Codex to contain petty and restrictive elements.

 

And yet it does. Therefore at least some of those suggestions, or perhaps all in certain cases, are restrictive and petty.

 

But then again they are not suggestions at all, as a suggestion would have the option of ignoring it. As the Ultramarines do not ignore these ''suggestions'' they cannot be suggestions for practical purposes of this discussion.

But I just can't seem to find it.

 

 

So those "petty and restrictive" guidelines would not restrict those Chapters. It is likely that the Ultramarines, and other Codex Chapters do adhere to those petty and restrictive guidelines. But it is also still possible that they don't, and that the original texts and the later added treatises are not seen as equivalent. Though the description of the Codex and the conventions of its use are described too brief to conclusively say one way or the other.

Ah, so you would concede the point that some elements of the Codex may be petty and restrictive.

 

Since, as what you are saying, the Ultramarines follow even the petty and restrictive elements of the Codex, then that perfectly explains the actions of Uriel Ventris and the Ultramarines’s own instance on following petty and restrictive rules. One can conclude that Ventris simply ran into those petty and restrictive elements.

Or, as what I am also saying, the petty and restrictive elements are from other contributors, and are not held to teh same "must be adhered to" standard as the original texts of Guilliman.

 

 

If they were written by other contributors it would absolutely make sense to briefly compare them to the original texts of the Primarchs. If, for example, they did not quite measure up to the original treatises.

If that fact was a given then why note that only some of it is ‘’petty and restrictive?’’ If they where not quite up to measure by any logic then there would be no need to reference it like that.

Why wouldn't it be? The reader had no idea what the Codex was about up until that section of the Codex Ultramarines. That last paragraph explains some of its contents, and it points out that the Codex as it exists today (M41) includes texts from hundreds of authors. It then goes on to point out that some of the texts that are in the Codex seem petty and restrictive, and not worthy of Guilliman. That is a perfectly reasonable thing to point out, after having just explained that the Codex contains contributions by so many people, and not just Guilliman's own work.

 

 

The "others" in that statement refers to "contents", not other authors, as that had been the subject of the preceeding sentence. "Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive (...). Others describe actual battle reports (...)." Though I am not sure that was what made you say that the next sentence would specifically adress the contributions of other commanders.

It does so right in that sentence.

 

Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day.

Bolded for your benefit.

The note that the battle reports contain comments by the commanders who had actually fought those battles is no indication that the previous sentence hadn't also be refering to commanders.

 

 

No that does not at all. As I pointed out before, you have no proof that the ‘’petty and restrictive comments’’ came from then.

No, I don't. Only the indication that it did. The passage explains that the Codex has material by hundreds of authors. The passage then goes on to state that some of the material in the Codex seems petty and restrictive. That the aforementioned hundreds of authors are responsible for introducing in some cases material that does not seem worthy of Guilliman's mind is the obvious interpretation. For one thing because that's what you would expect from hundreds of authors. There just has to be some sub-par material among them. The other big indicator is of course that the material is described as "not worthy of Guilliman's mind", which all but spells "not actually from Guilliman himself". But it does not flat out state that the restrictive material was introduced by one of the hundreds of authors.

 

 

The wording is thus:

 

Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch.

Note ‘’contents’’ in other words part of the codex. The sentence preceding that is irrelevant in changing the meaning of the second sentence.

The contributions by teh hundreds of authors are all "part of the Codex".

 

 

While the Codex does not provide tactics for fighting Tyranids,

If the Codex does not provide tactics for fighting Tyranids then one go outside the Codex since it offers no suggestions.

 

But one cannot do that. We have enough quotes on the Ultramairnes adhering ridgedly to it's pages that going outside it would be a bad thing.

Who said the Ultramarines cannot go outside the Codex? They cannot (or rather, will not) go against what the Codex says.

 

That's why I had commented earlier hat in a situation that was not covered by the Codex it would not be possible to disobey the Codex. Because the Codex makes no suggestions for how to approach such a situation.

 

We have examples of Utlramarines dismissing what the Codex says, and not following it's guidelines. That is not the same as simply going "outside" the Codex. If the Codex makes no suggestions on how to fight Tyranids, then no chosen approach will be a transgression against the tenets of the Codex.

 

 

it does explain how the squads of a Chapter are organised.

Said organizational elements are noted to be guidelines. But if they truely where guidelines then the Ultramarines could ignore them. But since they don't they are effectively rules.

For the Ultramarines. Not for Chapters in general.

[Gree]

Apparently. So, why not be a sportsman and quote the statement from post #137 that adresses how a Codex Chapter would deal with problems the Codes does not cover? That would be very considerate.

 

[but I just can't seem to find it.

 

You just quoted it yourself.

 

If you can’t understand my point then you really are beyond help.

 

Or, as what I am also saying, the petty and restrictive elements are from other contributors, and are not held to teh same "must be adhered to" standard as the original texts of Guilliman.

 

That is a theory, but lacks solid proof, as I have said before.

 

Why wouldn't it be?

 

Why would non-Primarch contributions be considered equal to that of a Primarch?

 

The note that the battle reports contain comments by the commanders who had actually fought those battles is no indication that the previous sentence hadn't also be refering to commanders.

 

Why wouldn’t it be?

 

No, I don't. Only the indication that it did.

 

And that’s all I really need.

 

That the aforementioned hundreds of authors are responsible for introducing in some cases material that does not seem worthy of Guilliman's mind is the obvious interpretation.

 

Not it is not. That is your interpretation. Not the obvious one.

 

The other big indicator is of course that the material is described as "not worthy of Guilliman's mind", which all but spells "not actually from Guilliman himself".

 

It rather spells to opposite to me. The entire passage makes it sound like a reader form the 41str millennium and seeing elements that seemingly are apart of the codex yet are not worthy of the primarch.

 

The contributions by teh hundreds of authors are all "part of the Codex".

 

Yes, and your point?

 

Who said the Ultramarines cannot go outside the Codex? They cannot (or rather, will not) go against what the Codex says.

 

The multiple quotes that state they follow Guilliman’s word to the letter? Logically, if the Ultramarines where going outside the Codex they are not following the Codex anymore then.

 

For ten thousand years they have fought in the manner described in its holy pages. Other Chapters may freely interpret the words of Guilliman but, to the Ultramarines, such deviation is unthinkable. The Codex Astartes is a work of divine wisdom, sanctified by the Emperor himself, and the Ultramarines see no reason to deviate from its wisdom.

 

As I recall, deviating from something is not following it. If the Ultramarines go outside the Codex then they are no longer following it.

 

We have examples of Utlramarines dismissing what the Codex says, and not following it's guidelines. That is not the same as simply going "outside" the Codex.

 

Yes it is. If it’s not inside the Codex it’s going outside of it.

 

The Chapters that rigidly follow the recommendations of the Codex Astartes are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters. These Space Marines adhere to the Codex as the model for their organisation, identification markings and tactical doctrine. Of all the Codex Chapters the most famous is the Ultramarines, the Chapter of Roboute Guilliman himself, and many of the other Codex Chapters are descended from their genetic line.

 

If the Codex contains no recommendations on how to deal with Tyranids then they must go outside the Codex. Thus they are no longer ridgedly following the Codex.

 

"In battle, the Ultramarines follow the teachings of Guilliman, fighting with all the strength and ferocity of their legendary Primarch."

 

If Guilliman's teachings contain no information on the Tyranids and the Ultramarines go outside it to defeat the Tyranids then they are no longer following his teachings.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Guys, tone it down a bit. Not only is this discussion quite a bit off-topic but also getting close to becoming rather... toasty.

[Legatus]

Or, as what I am also saying, the petty and restrictive elements are from other contributors, and are not held to teh same "must be adhered to" standard as the original texts of Guilliman.

That is a theory, but lacks solid proof, as I have said before.

It may lack proof, but so does the contrary, and the theory does have certain support. Mainly due to the phrasing of the description of the Codex contents, but also in the ten millennia track record of the Ultramarines as the most successful Chapter, plus the fluff that the Ultramarines follow the "teachings of their Primarchs" to the letter. That strongly indicates that strictly following the Codex is more advantageous than not so strictly following it (or else you might expect a not so strict Codex Chapter to be more successful, over the massive test period of ten thousand years).

 

 

Why wouldn't it be?

Why would non-Primarch contributions be considered equal to that of a Primarch?

They wouldn't. But why wouldn't it be reasonable to point out that the M41 Codex thus includes some content that seems not entirely worthy of the work Guilliman had started?

 

 

The note that the battle reports contain comments by the commanders who had actually fought those battles is no indication that the previous sentence hadn't also be refering to commanders.

Why wouldn’t it be?

Because a sentence describing the inclusion of battle reports would mention that the reports include comments by the commanders who had fought them no matter whether the previous sentence had also refered to commander contributions or not.

 

 

No, I don't. Only the indication that it did.

And that’s all I really need.

I had proposed the notion that the Ultramarines do not adhere to the "flawed" contents by other authors as a possible interpretation in my initial post #118. It was clearly outlined as such.

 

Some excerpts:

 

"Perhaps all those countless battle reports and analyses that have been added over the past millennia aren't seen as mandatory, and merely serve to educate? Perhaps, as I would assume, the Codex contains the "doctrines", which had largely been established in M31 and include the tactics of the Primarchs, and are only rarely added to when a new threat such as the Tyranids are encountered."

 

"The quote from the 4th Edition Codex Space Marines is the most broad, stating that they follow "the Codex" to the letter. This would suggest that they would feel bound to follow the suggestions of anyone who had subsequently added material to the Codex. However, most of the other quotes seem to support that the Ultramarines would specifically adhere to the material established by Roboute Guilliman, and would then perhaps not feel quite as attached to material that had been added later.

It has long been my assumption that new organisational and tactical doctrines would not really be added to the Codex Astartes that often anyway, since that had all pretty much been established by Roboute Guilliman ten thousand years ago."

 

So if that was what you were after, you have been wasting your time, since that's how I had framed it from the get go. My goal was to propose this as a possible hypothesis.

 

 

The other big indicator is of course that the material is described as "not worthy of Guilliman's mind", which all but spells "not actually from Guilliman himself".

It rather spells to opposite to me. The entire passage makes it sound like a reader form the 41str millennium and seeing elements that seemingly are apart of the codex yet are not worthy of the primarch.

Everything that had been added over the past ten thousand years is part of the Codex. The M41 reader sees articles by hundreds of authors. And some of the articles in the Codex do not seem worthy of Guilliman's mind. "Those are probably articles from Guilliman himself" is not really the most obvious interpretation.

 

 

Who said the Ultramarines cannot go outside the Codex? They cannot (or rather, will not) go against what the Codex says.

The multiple quotes that state they follow Guilliman’s word to the letter? Logically, if the Ultramarines where going outside the Codex they are not following the Codex anymore then.

The important thing is to not disobey the Codex. The Ultramarines can do things teh Codex makes no statement about.

 

If the Codex states "do bolter drill on monday" and "do combat knife drill on tuesday", but says nothing about friday, then doing whatever drill you like on Friday would not be disobeying the Codex. Because the Codex has no rules regarding friday drills. It would only be a problem if the Ultramarines would do grenade drill on monday, or something like that. That would be a violation of the rules of the Codex. Doing something about which the Codex does not include any rules would not be a violation against of the Codex.

 

I.e. doing something that is not in mentioned in a set of rules would not conflict with strict adherence to the set of rules.

[Gree]

*snip*

 

While I would certainly love to refute your arguments I don't exactly think it is wise to continue this conversation after said warning by the mod.

 

If you wish to continue it I suggest you do so by PM.

[Legatus]

Guys, tone it down a bit. Not only is this discussion quite a bit off-topic but also getting close to becoming rather... toasty.

My appollogies. I had still been typing away when you had posted.

 

Allright, back to discussing how badass Horus really is.