Dire Avengers and Defend

[Biaz]

My friend and I were playing a game the other night, and when his Avenger HQ guy and his squad of avengers charged, he said their Defend ability reduced my Attacks by 1 each turn to a minimum of 1. My question is,does this include the bonus for CC weapon and bolt pistol? Since marines only have 1 attack base, this power wouldn't really have any effect unless it affected the bonus too. For those who don't have the Eldar codex, when they reference attacks the "A" is capitalised, which is why i think it just affects the statline. I gave him the benefit of doubt and removed my bonus for CC/BP, but thought I'd ask here anyway. Sorry for the long winded question -_-

[dswanick]

My reading is that they lose "1 Attack", not that they lose "1 from their Attack characteristic". Therfore this should come off any bonus' from 2 CCWs and charging bonus.

[thade]

It may help you to view it this way: each model in your unit has Base Attacks + Any Applicable Off Hand Bonus + Bonus Attack for Charging if applicable = Total Attacks. The Defender power deducts one attack from your Total Attacks (down to a minimum of one).

 

In short, it doesn't matter what the source of the model's attacks are.

[Biaz]

Fair enough then. Does it stack too? So in 2 turns of combat they lose 2 attacks? Thanks for the help

[Morollan]

Nope, it doesn't stack.

[Biaz]

*Phew!* Thank the Chaos Gods for that! And you guys for helping clear that up for me !

[thade]

Honestly, if the Chaos gods had anything to do with it, it would stack. They like to see their followers work for their love. :)

[Quixus]

Does Defend apply to the model with rule as well or only to its squad? For the Exarch this is meaningless, but it might be interesting for Asurmen since he can be singled out.

[Spacefrisian]

The model with it provides it to the whole unit as long as he lives.

[Quixus]

Yes, but ICs count as separate units in CC.

[Morollan]

Yes, but ICs count as separate units in CC.

 

So they suddenly stop granting abilities to squads they have joined? I don't think so.

[Quixus]

So they suddenly stop granting abilities to squads they have joined? I don't think so.

No, but they don't get the bonus themselves since defend only applies to one squad. I may be mistaken here but that's the way I read it.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

So they suddenly stop granting abilities to squads they have joined? I don't think so.

No, but they don't get the bonus themselves since defend only applies to one squad. I may be mistaken here but that's the way I read it.

Its affects the squad they are fighting not themselves so any HQ in the squad isn't going to stop it.

[Zincite]

So they suddenly stop granting abilities to squads they have joined? I don't think so.

No, but they don't get the bonus themselves since defend only applies to one squad. I may be mistaken here but that's the way I read it.

Is this possibly one of those times where Thade will come along and point out his signature for us all?

 

It's a interesting point though.

[thade]

Ha! Not sure if that's a compliment or an insult.

 

I'd have to see the wording on Defend (no Eldar dex) but I recommend you look at that then the IC rules. Some powers that squads have confer to ICs...and some powers that ICs have confer to squads. For instance, Fearless doesn't get passed around but Litanies on the Chaplain circumvents this and does pass Fearless around.

 

It's been a while since I threw down with Eldar, but if memory serves all enemy models in an assault where the Dire Avengers are involved get one less attack each Assault Phase. So it doesn't matter what unit any IC is attached to...this particular ability has a numeric effect that's clear and disregards other allied units in the fight.

 

Unless I'm not understanding the question?

[Dan VK]

"Enemy models directing their attacks towards the Exarch's squad lose one Attack in each assault phase (to a minimum of 1)." C:E page 30

 

Regarding where the 'attack' comes from, each models gets a specific number of Attacks based on their Attacks characteristic plus specific modifiers, and it is from this final number that the Attack is lost. In other words, a model may always take a single Attack, even if they only had one Attack and are affected by Defend.

 

Also, Exarch's are part of the squad/unit, as they are an upgrade character, and gain the benefits of their Warrior Powers even if they are the only model left in the unit. Phoenix Lords are likewise affected by their own abilities, as even if they are not currently attached to another unit, they are still a unit consisting of one model.

[Zincite]

Ha! Not sure if that's a compliment or an insult. :D

Sort of a amused jest. I think.

[Quixus]

Also, Exarch's are part of the squad/unit, as they are an upgrade character, and gain the benefits of their Warrior Powers even if they are the only model left in the unit. Phoenix Lords are likewise affected by their own abilities, as even if they are not currently attached to another unit, they are still a unit consisting of one model.

So what happens when the Phoenix Lord is attached to a unit of Dire Avengers, that either don't have an Exarch to begin with or whose leader has been killed?

[thade]

Ahhh...now I see the confusion, I think.

 

Just carry this out literally, man. If the unit that's being targeted by melee attacks has this Defend-power (no matter what the unit is) it benefits from it. You're right that during Assault, ICs are considered separate units. In that case, I think it does result in the squad (that has the power) benefiting from it while the IC (that doesn't have the power) would not benefit from it.

 

Given Dan's quote there, that's my understanding.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

The way I'm reading this goes something like this...

 

Asurmen has Defend. A squad with no Exarch does not.

 

If he reverts to being a seperate squad during Assault then he will retain Defend while the squad will get nothing.

 

Basically, he can't hand out Defend to others.

 

Flip side would also be true that a Dire Avengers Exarch doesn't confer Defend onto an IC during an assault either.

[Venemox]

I think you're missing some key information from the BBB.

 

Pg. 49 says 'When the attacks are resolved, independent characters are always treated as a seperate single-model unit (as described under Multiple Combats on page 41), even though they have joined the unit.'

 

I interpret that to mean, the IC is a part of the unit for all purposes except resolving attacks. It only allows for the model to be 'treated' as a separate single-model unit, not actually being a separate, single-model unit; and only specifies during attack resolution. Everything up to that point, and everything after that point, is handled as 1 unit.

 

The IC does not 'revert to being a seperate squad during assaults'.

[Dan VK]

I think you're missing some key information from the BBB.

 

Pg. 49 says 'When the attacks are resolved, independent characters are always treated as a seperate single-model unit (as described under Multiple Combats on page 41), even though they have joined the unit.'

 

I interpret that to mean, the IC is a part of the unit for all purposes except resolving attacks. It only allows for the model to be 'treated' as a separate single-model unit, not actually being a separate, single-model unit; and only specifies during attack resolution. Everything up to that point, and everything after that point, is handled as 1 unit.

 

The IC does not 'revert to being a seperate squad during assaults'.

"Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining assault results onward).” BRB bage 49

 

An independent character is considered a separate unit beginning when checking which models are engaged (the first step in resolving a combat), and ending when it is time to determine assault results. I do not understand how 'treated as a separate unit' and 'is a separate unit' are in any way different during that time period, because the rules applied to the situation, mainly the Multiple Combats section, are identical.

 

 

[EDIT: The usual]

[Morollan]

If this were true, and I don't for one second have any delusion that this is what is intended, then I'm off to throw away all my Blood Angel Chaplains/Reclusiarch because they no longer give my DC rerolls to hit and wound.

[Dan VK]

If this were true, and I don't for one second have any delusion that this is what is intended, then I'm off to throw away all my Blood Angel Chaplains/Reclusiarch because they no longer give my DC rerolls to hit and wound.

Before you do something so rash, you should reread the relevant rules. Regardless of whether the Chaplain is considered to be a separate unit at the time or not, or if he has been removed as a casualty or not, if he assaulted while joined to a unit and it is still that player turn, then all members of that unit may re-roll roll failed rolls to hit, and failed rolls to wounds for Death Company. In other (fewer) words, a Chaplain being treated as a separate unit in combat does not affect Liturgies.

[Venemox]

Before you do something so rash, you should reread the relevant rules. Regardless of whether the Chaplain is considered to be a separate unit at the time or not, or if he has been removed as a casualty or not, if he assaulted while joined to a unit and it is still that player turn, then all members of that unit may re-roll roll failed rolls to hit, and failed rolls to wounds for Death Company. In other (fewer) words, a Chaplain being treated as a separate unit in combat does not affect Liturgies.

 

Well, since we can all agree on the end results of the Chaplain's complicity in close combat, what about the Space Marine Apothecary? Does an attached IC not benefit from Feel No Pain, which has affects that only occur during the time you define as resolving combat?

 

As a counter-point, the BBB is very specific about IC's joining or leaving units during the Assault Phase or when locked in Close Combat. Page 48 absolutely forbids, and in no uncertain terms. The IC is part of a unit from the end of your Movement phase until your next movement phase, should you decide to move it out of coherency.

 

Edit: Need to learn to read