Dire Avengers and Defend

[BOBMAKENZIE]

The way I'm reading this goes something like this...

 

Asurmen has Defend. A squad with no Exarch does not.

 

If he reverts to being a seperate squad during Assault then he will retain Defend while the squad will get nothing.

 

Basically, he can't hand out Defend to others.

 

Flip side would also be true that a Dire Avengers Exarch doesn't confer Defend onto an IC during an assault either.

 

I dont think this is right since the book specifically specifies that the rules carry over to their aspect when they join them I believe (Might be wrong)

 

If this were true, and I don't for one second have any delusion that this is what is intended, then I'm off to throw away all my Blood Angel Chaplains/Reclusiarch because they no longer give my DC rerolls to hit and wound.

Before you do something so rash, you should reread the relevant rules. Regardless of whether the Chaplain is considered to be a separate unit at the time or not, or if he has been removed as a casualty or not, if he assaulted while joined to a unit and it is still that player turn, then all members of that unit may re-roll roll failed rolls to hit, and failed rolls to wounds for Death Company. In other (fewer) words, a Chaplain being treated as a separate unit in combat does not affect Liturgies.

 

 

Except the ruling on Sanguinary Priests outlines that such granted rules now seem to be granted at point of use now which would be at the initiative step of the model attacking?

[thade]

If this were true, and I don't for one second have any delusion that this is what is intended, then I'm off to throw away all my Blood Angel Chaplains/Reclusiarch because they no longer give my DC rerolls to hit and wound.

The rules are different. Litanies specifically says it confers to members of the attached squad when they charge. Defend does no such thing; it says models which direct attacks against the model have one less attack (to a min. of one).

 

So, take heart. :)

[Grey Mage]

4rth ed rules + 5th ed rules often causes problems, and I think this one is readily apparent.

 

Exarch powers are designed to work from the giver to their squad- including potential characters. For example- with one exception- they work on any attached autarchs.

 

The design of the new 5th edition assault rules is to make sure that characters can only attack, and be attacked, by models/units in BTB with them. We know this, because for once in our eternal debates they actually tell us the intentions of the rules makers:

 

This is to make them stand out in a fight, as befits such heroic individuals, and it means that they have to be in base contact with the enemy to be able to attack.

And later:

Using their own men as a screen in order to avoid the fight is a cowardly act, one that these great heroes would never consider!

 

The intent isnt to punish older rules setups that worked off the 4rth edition wording/mechanics, but to make sure that characters see action and add excitement to the game.

 

Ive never had anyone doubt that Defend worked for the whole squad before, and I find the idea very odd.

[Dan VK]

Well, since we can all agree on the end results of the Chaplain's complicity in close combat, what about the Space Marine Apothecary? Does an attached IC not benefit from Feel No Pain, which has affects that only occur during the time you define as resolving combat?

The Apothecary in C:SM is not an independent character.

 

As a counter-point, the BBB is very specific about IC's joining or leaving units during the Assault Phase or when locked in Close Combat. Page 48 absolutely forbids, and in no uncertain terms. The IC is part of a unit from the end of your Movement phase until your next movement phase, should you decide to move it out of coherency.

The independent character is not leaving the unit, but he is, quite explicitly, treated as a separate unit during the specified period.

 

Edit: Need to learn to read

A lot of times I feel like we all need to take a few reading classes online :D

 

If this were true, and I don't for one second have any delusion that this is what is intended, then I'm off to throw away all my Blood Angel Chaplains/Reclusiarch because they no longer give my DC rerolls to hit and wound.

Before you do something so rash, you should reread the relevant rules. Regardless of whether the Chaplain is considered to be a separate unit at the time or not, or if he has been removed as a casualty or not, if he assaulted while joined to a unit and it is still that player turn, then all members of that unit may re-roll roll failed rolls to hit, and failed rolls to wounds for Death Company. In other (fewer) words, a Chaplain being treated as a separate unit in combat does not affect Liturgies.

Except the ruling on Sanguinary Priests outlines that such granted rules now seem to be granted at point of use now which would be at the initiative step of the model attacking?

That is correct, but the Blood Chalice affects all friendly units within 6", not specifically a unit the Sanguinary Priest is part of.

 

4rth ed rules + 5th ed rules often causes problems, and I think this one is readily apparent.

 

Exarch powers are designed to work from the giver to their squad- including potential characters. For example- with one exception- they work on any attached autarchs.

 

The design of the new 5th edition assault rules is to make sure that characters can only attack, and be attacked, by models/units in BTB with them. We know this, because for once in our eternal debates they actually tell us the intentions of the rules makers:

 

This is to make them stand out in a fight, as befits such heroic individuals, and it means that they have to be in base contact with the enemy to be able to attack.

And later:

Using their own men as a screen in order to avoid the fight is a cowardly act, one that these great heroes would never consider!

 

The intent isnt to punish older rules setups that worked off the 4rth edition wording/mechanics, but to make sure that characters see action and add excitement to the game.

 

Ive never had anyone doubt that Defend worked for the whole squad before, and I find the idea very odd.

I believe you hit the nail right on the head.

 

 

[EDIT: Added additional responses]

[thade]

What Dan and GM said.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

does the fact the priest effects units within 6" really change that much?

[Dan VK]

does the fact the priest effects units within 6" really change that much?

It changes what is affected by it. If a Sanguinary Priest is attached to squad A and squads B and C both have models within 6" of the Sanguinary Priest, then all three units, including in combat when the Sanguinary Priest is treated as a separate fourth unit, gain the benefit of the Blood Chalice. If a Reclusiarch is attached to squad A, how close squads B and C are to the Reclusiarch is irrelevant, as only the Reclusiarch and squad A may gain the benefit of Litanies of Blood. If a Grey Knight Brother-Captain is attached to a squad of Grey Knight Terminators with a Brotherhood Banner, in close combat the Grey Knight Brother-Captain will not gain benefit from Brotherhood Banner, as he is treated as a separate unit when the benefit is applied.

 

My point is that the interpretation of independent characters in combat I previously described, which I obviously believe to be the RAW, does not conflict with the working of Chaplains, Sanguinary Priests, Apothecaries, Exarchs, et cetera.

[Morollan]

Can I ask, do you honestly believe that the IC is not intended to benefit from, as in your example, a Brotherhood Banner carried by the unit he has joined?

 

The IC section of the rulebook says that IC's are 'treated as' a separate unit but it also repeatedly states that the IC has joined the unit, is part of the unit etc. I think it's pretty clear that the rules are intended to be used solely for the purpose of determining who can attack and be attacked by the IC.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

does the fact the priest effects units within 6" really change that much?

It changes what is affected by it. If a Sanguinary Priest is attached to squad A and squads B and C both have models within 6" of the Sanguinary Priest, then all three units, including in combat when the Sanguinary Priest is treated as a separate fourth unit, gain the benefit of the Blood Chalice. If a Reclusiarch is attached to squad A, how close squads B and C are to the Reclusiarch is irrelevant, as only the Reclusiarch and squad A may gain the benefit of Litanies of Blood. If a Grey Knight Brother-Captain is attached to a squad of Grey Knight Terminators with a Brotherhood Banner, in close combat the Grey Knight Brother-Captain will not gain benefit from Brotherhood Banner, as he is treated as a separate unit when the benefit is applied.

 

My point is that the interpretation of independent characters in combat I previously described, which I obviously believe to be the RAW, does not conflict with the working of Chaplains, Sanguinary Priests, Apothecaries, Exarchs, et cetera.

 

 

Whoops I think we are arguing separate points here. My issue was more that they have ruled that a priest killed at any point in the combat prior to the other units in the combat using their bonus stops effecting the unit. (Which for FNP makes sense but since FC is supposed to take place at the point of making assault moves makes no sense) Much to the opposite of most rulings/interpretations of the Chaplain's reroll rule. I do not however see anything within either rule that makes them substantially different for the purposes of when one should stop working or the other begin.

 

Just a few quotes to throw out there that might be helpful.

 

Chaplains

"On a player turn in which he assaults a Chaplain and all members of any squad he has joined can re-roll failed rolls to hit."

Priests

"all friendly units within 6" are subject to..."

Furious Charge

"In a turn in which they assault into combat they add..."

 

 

As a quick aside, I find the priest ruling trips me up a lot because it just does not make sense to me :/

[Dan VK]

Can I ask, do you honestly believe that the IC is not intended to benefit from, as in your example, a Brotherhood Banner carried by the unit he has joined?

No, I do not believe that the writer intended independent characters to not gain benefit from a Brotherhood Banner, but I do not know one way or the other, and no one else here knows either. We are discussing the rules, though, and not how I choose to play, or how I suggest others play. How the rule is intended does not matter one whit, because what the rules state is clear.

 

The IC section of the rulebook says that IC's are 'treated as' a separate unit but it also repeatedly states that the IC has joined the unit, is part of the unit etc. I think it's pretty clear that the rules are intended to be used solely for the purpose of determining who can attack and be attacked by the IC.

If it is clear that the rules are intended solely for attack allocation, I have not found such stated in the BRB and would very much appreciate a quote. Additionally, the specified time frame extends beyond attack allocation. Please see post 22 of this thread, and this thread.

 

Whoops I think we are arguing separate points here.

Right you are :yes: I get overenthusiastic.

 

 

[EDIT: Added additional responses]

[Quixus]

Just a few quotes to throw out there that might be helpful.

 

Chaplains

"On a player turn in which he assaults a Chaplain and all members of any squad he has joined can re-roll failed rolls to hit."

Priests

"all friendly units within 6" are subject to..."

Furious Charge

"In a turn in which they assault into combat they add..."

 

 

As a quick aside, I find the priest ruling trips me up a lot because it just does not make sense to me :/

Those are three rules for different units, which could all mean something that has no relation to Defend

Chaplains: It explicitly says the chaplain and the squad he is attached to. So it does not matter as how many units the ensemble of chaplain and squad count. It says nothing about an additional IC added to the squad.

 

Priest: It does not matter how many units there are in range, they all benefit. I have to ask though, can a Sanguinary Priest be friendly with himself? I.e. does he get the two special rules?

 

Furious Charge: Yes once you have established that the unit is eligble for FC it works.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Furious Charge: Yes once you have established that the unit is eligble for FC it works.

 

I would be surprised it actually effected the defend debate at all TBH.

 

No it doesnt apparently. FC only takes effect at the point of attack. Meaning you can cut priests out from under a unit after they've made their assault (when FC would normally go off) Which is something that is sort of typically avoided by the Chaplains...So I suppose Im asking whats the deal there. Am I missing something?

[Dan VK]

Furious Charge: Yes once you have established that the unit is eligble for FC it works.

I would be surprised it actually effected the defend debate at all TBH.

That was my point. I am unfortunately incapable of refraining from correcting apparent mistakes in another person's understanding of the rules, though, which I think muddied the waters of my argument. ^_^ The rules for independent characters in combat are relevant, however, and the aforementioned unaffected rules (Litanies, Blood Chalice, et cetera) were presented as counterarguments.