Lucas Alexander Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 I like to use this because it just pisses off any of my Tyranid, IG, and Ork buddies. 175 Pedro Cantar 375 10 man Honor guard with a thunder hammer to the champion 250 Land Raider Redeemer with multi-melta 800 Total It is expensive, but the Land Raider Redeemer uses 2 flame storm cannons that can focus on 2 separate units. Plus Pedro Cantar supported by 2 rhinos mounted with sternguard with melta guns really pisses my tank Tau buddy. I would like to field something of equal power, but for a lower price. Is there any way I can have a PW squad with invul saves to replace this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Validar Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 just throwing in a suggestion: Assault terminators :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Vanguard on foot might do it for cheaper. One or two with SS for invulnerable saves, a couple of power weapons, maybe a fist, and a couple of guys to soak up wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas Alexander Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 If I were to field 10 vanguard that is 225 pts. Sound reasonable, but all they truly are are 10 orks with better armor and initiative. Now lets see what would happen if I suddenly gave them power weapons. that would be 135 pts (due to the fact that the sergeant already has it), which would raise the price of the squad to 360 pts. With a crappier armor save, no bolter, and the lack of the champions special abilities, you pay the same price. No, a squad of 10 vanguard with all jump packs might be helpful but that is 325 pts. The honor guard wield more and pack a bigger punch than the vanguard can ever obtain. Assault termies... Wit a chaplain... land raider cusaider... no 2 land raider redeemers with 5 terminators + a terminator chaplain each... 1160 pts? No, sadly. Still too much for too little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 just throwing in a suggestion: Assault terminators ;) I wouldn't mention that around here. I am not always around to save those who suggest such a popular unit from the anti-meta brigade. :P They know who they are ;) :P http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100305014341/lotr/images/8/8c/Arwenrider.jpg :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 The basic answer is "nope." You've got it about pared down to the best you're going to get without switching to Terminators. Marines don't get a lot of Invelnerable saves, and the ones we do get are expensive to purchase. The only other unit in the book with the ability to take both Invulnerables and power weapons en masse are Vanguard, which you already pointed out are expensive. Assault Terminators are the only other option, and they take up a lot of room in your Redeemer. Command Squads can pack both invulnerables and power weapons on four of five members (everyone but the Apothecary), but that's not a legal option for you (because of Kantor). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak-73 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Honor Guard generally trade in durability for the ability to wreck hordes, something Assault Terminators struggle with (they can demolish about everything else though). Vanguard aree neither here nor there. Dreanoughts don't fit into a LR. That's all you have for good combat units in the vanilla codex. Okay, Tactical Terminators also exist but they want to shoot and don't get trapped in a LR. If you are looking for combat power, 20 Tactical Marines inside a Kantor bubble on the charge will deliver against a vast range enemies. That's like 600 points though. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muctar Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 If you are looking for combat power, 20 Tactical Marines inside a Kantor bubble on the charge will deliver against a vast range enemies. That's like 600 points though. Alex 600 points which fills out your required FOC slots. Not bad, considering you can then add in C:SM's most killy units on top of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Validar Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 and they take up a lot of room in your Redeemer. I can't think of a lot of units that'd go "hah! Only 5 terminators, easy!", though :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Redeemer can hold all these guys...nice... The Fable: I had a IG horde player surround a landraider, then immobilize it....my deathstar unit (and 30% of my points) was stuck in the big blue box for the rest of the game, taunted by the guardsmen outside....sure, I could shoot a handfull of guardsman every turn...but I was still stuck in that box. The lesson of the story: Don't put all your Shiny Objects into one box...something might happen to the box! Back to the IP: Assault terminators (6) and extra armor on the Redeemer may be a better option, if they are followed by Kantor and Sternguard (in Rhinos). The goal of ther terminators is assault, so replace the MM with extra armor instead, to make sure the Landraider can keep on moving. Lets see: 10 honor guard with some PWs and a hammer....what? 40-ish attacks on the charge (Kantor bubble), roughly hitting on 3s vs Tau. 5 assault terminators and one TH/SS terminator - charging would be roughly 29 attacks (Kantor bubble) hitting on 3s vs Tau, and all missed wounds for the claws would be rerolled. (vs Kroot hitting on 4s...). It might be about the same impact for less points, that is to say, assault terminators (claws) may be more efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Tau aren't the best benchmark of melee ability. You really want to run that scenario against MEQ models. 9 stock-built Honour Guard will indeed get 45 attacks on the charge when inside the bubble. The Chapter Champion gets 6. Half of those 45 attacks hit, for 23. Four from the Champion, for a total of 27. That means about 14 wounds, none of which can be saved by our bog-standard MEQ unit. Wiped out to the man. However, that 10-man gets 9 attacks back at the same initiative. 5 hit, 3 wound, all saved. The sergeant gets 3 (power weapon) attacks back. He will only kill a single Honour Guard. if he's got a powerfist, he's already dead and kills none. Assault Terminators built with a 3 Hammer, 2 Claw setup get 12 hammer attacks and 10 claw attacks. 6 hammer hits, 5 claw hits. 5 hammer wounds, 4 claw wounds. 9 total unsaveable wounds. The difference is that the victim sergeant gets hits in return regardless of his armament. You now have to decide which to risk, the two hammer wounds that will come at I1, or the two claw wounds at I4. Either way, you have at least one Marine left alive at the end of combat who will get away free if he doesn't roll snakeyes on his Morale test. The think you have to consider is diminishing returns. The loss of a single honour guard is 5/51 attacks, about 10%. The loss of a single Hammernator is 4/22, and the loss of a claw Terminator is 5/22. That's about 20% and 25%, respectively. The Terminators have a better chance to survive power weapon hits, but when they fail, they fail hard and the unit's power takes a larger hit than the honour guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak-73 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 The advantage of Thunderhammer Terminators is that they can handle about anything but hordes. They don't really care much what gets thrown in their way otherwise, whether MCs, Grey Hunters or Wyches. What they have trouble handling is 30 Ork Boyz mobs due to volume of attacks going before them. Honor Guard otoh are more vulnerable to power weapons (not so much power fists due to I 1) and high T MCs can be more difficult depending on the number of Relic blades. But they can work their way through Ork mobs and are harder to tarpit. If you buy a LR for them, durability may or may not be as much an issue as in a Rhino. It does cost you a HS slot though. Vanguards are neither here nor there. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Hammernators aren't so bad against horde when Pedro is around. Consider why people perceive LC Terminators to be better against horde than Hammernators, it's because they have an extra attack. I'd even rate them on a par with Honour Guard for anti-horde, as while Honour Guard will most likely have one extra attack on top of them thanks to the Chapter Banner, the LC Terminators can re-roll their failed to wound rolls. And if the Honour Guard want to use relic blades it just means they have the same amount of attacks (apart from the Champion). And against horde of course you're invulnerable save will not be needed as much, which is why people rate LC Terminators and HG against them, because of their amazing armour save. However, when you stick Hammernators with Pedro they will have 4 attacks each, the same amount as LC Terminators without Pedro. Sure LC Terms with Pedro, or HG with Pedro, will still be better anti-horde, but the Hammernators are now on a par with anti-horde units such as LC Terminators as they are generally seen in vacuum. So with Pedro, I believe that Hammernators are very good all rounders, able to take apart elite units, MCs and hordes. That being said, I feel HG are the fluffier choice with Pedro if you want to be using Crimson Fists, and Honour Guard are also so cool. As for Honour Guard vs Hammernators, it is my experience that the HG often come out on top, you can only save so many invulnerable saves, and the sheer amount of attacks means you will fail a lot. Or is it my bad dice rolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 An LRC full of Honour Guard and an LRC full of Claw Terminators actually do the same amount of wounds on the charge, 14 (versus a WS4/T4 enemy). The difference comes when you start going against models with a Toughness greater than 4. The HG get 7 wounds vs T5 and the Claws get 10. Versus T6, the HG go down to 3 wounds and the Claws to 6 wounds. The reroll to wound IS huge after T4. 7 Claw Terminators can conceivably (and with a little luck) take out a Tervigon on the charge without a single casualty in return, and then fight off the waves of Gaunts afterward. Interesting stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak-73 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 One thing about TH&SS is that they have to survive a scathing number of Ork attacks, for example, when we are talking about hordes. LC Terminators can be more easily torrented away by enemy fire unless you buy them an expensive LR. A Honor Guard Rhino or Razorback isn't great but about 200 points cheaper. Is there a clear winner? Probably not, it all depends on what you determine desirable for your army. Overall TH&SS is probably the most useful and therefore most solid choice. You can even DS them if necessary near the enemy and expect them to either consume enormous amounts of fire (and/)or their survival Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas Alexander Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 I figured it out. Same list, but I add a master of the forge. I will be able to deep strike 4 drop pods with 2 ironclads with 2 sternguard squads. The master of the forge can repair any problem I have + It allows me to make the dreads into HS 900 pts allows me to deepstrike an F-U bomb. Wadda ya think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arikel Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I say throw in a chaplain to fill up the redeemer and give em extra killypower when charging out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas Alexander Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 Chaplain... Hmmm It could work. Very nice touch when engaging things with higher Ws. Same cost, very nice effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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