Paradigm

[TrashMan]

Creativity wihout any rules our boundries is just invitinf giant faliure.

 

It's the way most fanfiction goes. and it's horrible.

 

Impose order into the chaos of creativity. Harness the power and direct it.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

The problem is and let's face it, 99.99% of DIYers are poor writers with low to zero talent or skill, including myself. The talent is quite dead-end, there can be done nothing, but in case of skill is situation different. Skill can be aquired through hard work and experience. Therefore in most cases than not, the writing of IA turns out to be endless circle of labour, suffering and misery. You have to develop technician in yourself in order to develop your skill and Index Astartes.

 

I think this is the basis of where we differ. I do not think it is worth the time and effort to practice when there is no talent in the first place. I agree that with practice, experience and hard work, someone without talent can get acceptable results. But nobody ever made a slogan about striving for acceptableness.

 

To me, only when there is excellence at stake is it worth putting in the hard work and practice. But for that, one needs talent. Talent is often hindered by to restrictive rules and guidelines and stifled by harsh criticism.

 

In other words: 99.99% of the IAs here will never be more than acceptable, no matter how much you try. But if people wouldn't be so harsh on newbies, it might be 90%.

 

I guess this post makes sense only to those who think the same way I do in the first place. An acceptable but average result was never worth the effort in my mind (except if you can earn money with it, but then it is the money that is worth the effort, not the average result of your work). So if you have no talent for writing, well, don't.

[Darkchild130]

I don't like explaining everything, I've only written one IA and some people didn't "get" certain parts. That doesn't mean i've written it badly, GW does not explain everything in their articles either and I enjoy reading about things with a sense of mystery, so I write like that myself.

 

In regards to the OP, I think a balance has to be struck. you can still be creative and fit into the "box" as it were, it's finding the balance that is the hard part.

 

It's a fine line between "generic Ultramarine successor 9876" and "Jump pack Female TDA missile marines from ROCKOUTOPIA!!1!!"

 

Darkchild

[NightrawenII]

I think this is the basis of where we differ. I do not think it is worth the time and effort to practice when there is no talent in the first place. I agree that with practice, experience and hard work, someone without talent can get acceptable results. But nobody ever made a slogan about striving for acceptableness.

I would like to get your permission to use this quote in my comments to newbies. Because nothing is more cheering to new guy than telling him that he can never be an Ultramarine, for his geneseed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. ;)

 

To me, only when there is excellence at stake is it worth putting in the hard work and practice. But for that, one needs talent. Talent is often hindered by to restrictive rules and guidelines and stifled by harsh criticism.

The talent is striving under restrictive rules, because you have to improve yourself in order to overcome all obstacles.

The talent is lead by the guides in the meaningful direction, thus the author is not aimlessly wandering in dark places.

The talent is improved by the criticism, for you have to know what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong and thus focusing on the lacking parts.

 

I don't like explaining everything, I've only written one IA and some people didn't "get" certain parts. That doesn't mean i've written it badly, GW does not explain everything in their articles either and I enjoy reading about things with a sense of mystery, so I write like that myself.

This is matter of self-examination.

Some authors look at the critique and try to improve the "bad" parts. The others just live in their personal bubble of self-satisfaction. <_<

 

 

Cheers, NightrawenII.

[Brother Tyler]

I think that this discussion so far has demonstrated one of the problems that has crept into the Liber Astartes forum.

Somehow it came to be understood that the goal was to write an Index Astartes article.

How did that happen?

Well first off, the First Founding series of Index Astartes started being published in White Dwarf. Then some jerk* wrote an article telling everyone that they should use the Index Astartes article as their format and intended outcome for the development that took place here in Liber Astartes. Prior to that, members developed their Chapter using a hodge podge of formats. People accepted the format of the Index Astartes article and little by little it came to be that it was just expected that everyone was striving for an Index Astartes article.

The problem is that the point of the forum isn't to write an Index Astartes article.

The purpose of the forum is to develop a DIY Chapter (or warband or order or whatever).

The Index Astartes article is a good format and is useful when a member wants to develop the amount and type of information that is contained within the usual Index Astartes article. However, that's a choice that's up to the author.

When people are pressured into developing an amount and type of information that they really don't want to develop, of course the results are going to be less than stellar. That's not laziness or mediocrity on their part. It's unreasonable and unfair expectations on the part of the members that pressure the author into it.

If an author doesn't want to develop that much information, that's his choice. He can write his finished product in whatever format he chooses and it's not up to any of us to tell him he can/should do otherwise.

And then we have the issue of fluff-compliance. Personally, I like fluff-compliance. But that's not a requirement for DIYs. As I said before, if a member chooses to do something that's not compliant with [others' interpretations of] the fluff, that's his choice. It's fair to point out where there might be potential fluff-compliance problems, but if an author chooses to forge ahead anyways, that's his choice. No one is required to participate in any discussion if they don't want to, so if that little bit of fluff-noncompliance is that much of an issue, just ignore either it or the entire DIY. This goes for big things, too (like female Space Marines).

Understand, this isn't my opinion. This is the board's policy.

Players (authors) use the Liber Astartes forum to develop their DIY Chapter/warband/order/whatever. Other members assist the author in that development, but the author gets to make all of the decisions (he/she should carefully consider all of the input/suggestions given, but is under no obligation to follow any of them - and everyone needs to be constructive and polite throughout the whole process). What format the author chooses to use is entirely up to him/her, whether it's an Index Astartes article, the format used in the Imperial Armour Badab War books, a Codicium Imperialis article, a graphic novel, and epic poem, or whatever. Author's choice. Period.

Remember, at the end of the day it's not about writing Pulitzer-prize winning articles. It's about having fun and exercising a little bit of personal creativity in the grimdark of the WH40K universe. Not everyone is going to write top-line stuff, but everyone can have fun.

We all need to get this concept through our heads and stop pushing other members into work that they don't want/need to do.

*That "jerk" was me, by the way.

[TrashMan]

So...these hypothetical people...they want ot make a DIY chapter...yet they don't want to flesh it out or have no actual ideas about it? :no:

[Brother Tyler]

Don't be obtuse.

[Ace Debonair]

The problem is and let's face it, 99.99% of DIYers are poor writers with low to zero talent or skill, including myself. The talent is quite dead-end, there can be done nothing, but in case of skill is situation different. Skill can be aquired through hard work and experience. Therefore in most cases than not, the writing of IA turns out to be endless circle of labour, suffering and misery. You have to develop technician in yourself in order to develop your skill and Index Astartes.

 

Ouch.

See, I'm of the inclination that in writing, hard work can trump natural talent.

 

Talent helps, for certain. But dedication and hard work can turn the mediocre into the magnificent, even if it takes a long time to do it.

 

The development process isn't, and shouldn't be, limited only to those with total mastery of the language, able to conjure up vivid imagery so intense you can almost taste it with every sentence. Ask anyone who has a chapter in the Librarium - they'll tell you about how their work didn't pop into existence with the quality it's got now!

 

In short, everyone has to start somewhere. :lol:

 

It's worth remembering, and I'll admit to forgetting it sometimes and being occasionally guilty of using the trademark Liber Bowling Ball of Explosive C&C on newbies who would be better served with the Tennis Ball of Less Explosive C&C.

In other words: 99.99% of the IAs here will never be more than acceptable, no matter how much you try. But if people wouldn't be so harsh on newbies, it might be 90%.

 

Guilty as charged, I suppose. :no:

But hey, at least I'm big enough to admit it. That's gotta count for something, right?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The problem is and let's face it, 99.99% of DIYers are poor writers with low to zero talent or skill, including myself. The talent is quite dead-end, there can be done nothing, but in case of skill is situation different. Skill can be aquired through hard work and experience. Therefore in most cases than not, the writing of IA turns out to be endless circle of labour, suffering and misery. You have to develop technician in yourself in order to develop your skill and Index Astartes.

 

Ouch.

See, I'm of the inclination that in writing, hard work can trump natural talent.

 

Talent helps, for certain. But dedication and hard work can turn the mediocre into the magnificent, even if it takes a long time to do it.

 

Write about what you know.

 

As long as you have a solid grasp of the English language, you can't go wrong, because you know your subject - which is also why so many people have similar ideas about how an IA should be because of certain written/unwritten rules.

[NightrawenII]

The problem is that the point of the forum isn't to write an Index Astartes article.

 

The purpose of the forum is to develop a DIY Chapter (or warband or order or whatever).

I understand this and I agree with it. But look around in the Liber and tell me how many articles in the forum are titled Index Astartes: <insert name of your choice>. See? Therefore it's fair to assume that the author in question wants to develop fully fleshed Index Astartes article. I'm not pressing anyone into using certain format, but I'm expecting people to follow the *minimal* standards or procedures of their chosen type of article. - It's like telling someone that you are going to write a novel and write a poem.

 

When people are pressured into developing an amount and type of information that they really don't want to develop, of course the results are going to be less than stellar. That's not laziness or mediocrity on their part. It's unreasonable and unfair expectations on the part of the members that pressure the author into it.

See the above. When I c&c or rather b&c in someone's WIP thread, I'm expecting them to put some effort into DIYing. Certain amount of pressure is in place, otherwise the author will not feel obliged to continue in the development of his ideas.

 

Remember, at the end of the day it's not about writing Pulitzer-prize winning articles. It's about having fun and exercising a little bit of personal creativity in the grimdark of the WH40K universe. Not everyone is going to write top-line stuff, but everyone can have fun.

Agreed, but without work, there is no cake. :P

 

So...these hypothetical people...they want ot make a DIY chapter...yet they don't want to flesh it out or have no actual ideas about it? ^_^

He has point, though. As you said, the Liber Astartes forum is here for DIY Chapter development; How do you develop your ideas, when do you not want to develop your ideas? :D

 

 

Cheers, NightrawenII.

[Brother Tyler]

No, nobody ever said anything even remotely resembling "they want to make a DIY chapter...yet they don't want to flesh it out or have no actual ideas about it."

 

The point is that not everybody wants or needs to write an Index Astartes article. Whatever level of detail they want to develop and in whatever format they want to develop it into is up to them. If that's an Index Astartes article, more power to them. If it's something else, that's just as acceptable. The fact that most people tend towards the Index Astartes article is a product of multiple things including:

• the Index Astartes article is a good format (format quality)
  
• most other people write an Index Astartes article and it seems like the thing to do (internal choice)
  
• other people tell them to write an Index Astartes article (external pressure)
  

Obviously the mixture of the three things varies from DIY to DIY and from member to member.

 

Bottom line - the Index Astartes article format isn't the default product. It is simply the most commonly used. If someone wants to develop more/less information than we usually see in an Index Astartes article, that's perfectly acceptable. Other peoples' expectations (wants) are irrelevant.

 

+EDIT+

 

And just so everyone understands, the points I've been making aren't up for debate. They are B&C policy.

 

It's fine to discuss your reactions and opinions to these revelations, but that won't change them as policy.

 

Remember, though, that the topic is about creativity and the impact the Liber Astartes dynamic has on the amount of creativity employed by members. I've touched on creativity from one aspect, largely that of the end-product format and artificial (and incorrect) requirements/limits. There are, however, other aspects of creativity that might bear discussion.

[Leonaides]

for my own part- the quibbles and questions i tend to ask are more (i hope) because i dont think the writer has actually thought through their ideas fully- current example being DAT's nearby thread... Its a kneejerk reaction to the - terminators are awesome so my chapter only has terminators problem. By which i mean someone doing that has appeared to forget that part of the reason terminators are awesome is that the guys inside are chapter veterans, with maybe hundreds of years of combat experience, they really are the best of the best, and that experience needs learning before they are entrusted with incredibly rare terminator armour. I can live with 300 terminators in a chapter, as long as there are still scouts and pa marines in there to do all the things tda cant do.

[Heru]

The problem is that the point of the forum isn't to write an Index Astartes article.

 

The purpose of the forum is to develop a DIY Chapter (or warband or order or whatever).

And yet that is the point I made over and over, back when we wanted to name the Imperial Armour article format officially for the board (Fabrica Astartes!!).

 

I supported Octy's idea to name it because I knew it was the best avenue for making new article formats be more easily accepted by the Liber community. If we'd have been allowed to do what we where trying to do, we would, by now already have new sets of framework to guide people to building their DIYs in new and more varied article formats. This would as well opened the avenue for people to make their own unique formats (whether a blend of multiple types or completely new).

[Darkchild130]

I don't like explaining everything, I've only written one IA and some people didn't "get" certain parts. That doesn't mean i've written it badly, GW does not explain everything in their articles either and I enjoy reading about things with a sense of mystery, so I write like that myself.

 

This is matter of self-examination.

Some authors look at the critique and try to improve the "bad" parts. The others just live in their personal bubble of self-satisfaction. ;)

 

 

Cheers, NightrawenII.

 

Not exactly hard to write an IA though is it. I took on board useful advice and adjusted accordingly. I remain satisfied ;)

 

Back on topic, it's all well and good saying you can write an article not in the IA format, but everyone jumps on top of anything less and criticises the hell out of it. So it's easier to just fit in...

 

Darkchild

[Heru]

Not exactly hard to write an IA though is it.

It can be extremely difficult to fit your ideas into the IA format. Allot of the time you are essentially discarding ideas, not because they are bad but because either you don't have a section (or sidebar) to put them in, or you are trying / pushed into following the "accepted" IA article word-count.

[Octavulg]

CKO

I think there is a paradox that is preventing us from writing or accepting great IAs what do you guys think?

 

No.

 

Do our suggestions inspire creativity or limits it? Do our suggestions lead to a new colorful chapter or one that belongs in section b row 4 seat 12? To me it seems that after a writer post his chapter he goes from trying to create something to justifying his ideas, and once that happens it sabotages creativity. Do you get what I am trying to say?

 

Restrictions are your friend. Restrictions are what make you be creative. Restrictions are what take broad concepts and turn them into things.

 

Any six-year old can make a Space Marine chapter. Indeed, some would argue they have a natural edge. Making one that people can accept as part of the 40K universe is an altogether more difficult feat. It's the difference between conceiving of the idea of a horseless carriage and designing a car. One is infinitely more creative and requires coming up with infinitely more solutions, explanations, and practical realities.

 

Restrictions, to a point, make authors produce better material and more creative material. Restrictions also exist to be avoided - the trick is figuring out how to avoid them in a way that people won't notice, or will accept, and in not trying to avoid too many at once.

 

Justifying, expanding upon, and developing ideas is the process of creation. Coming up with the ideas is a very small part of it, and the author doesn't actually have to do that themselves in many cases. Turning ideas into reality is the most important part of having ideas.

 

Developing ideas is about working with restrictions. You can restrict too much, but I don't think the Liber has reached that point, for all that it flirts with it on occasion.

 

* * *

 

Wolf Priest Haelaeif

When you read the articles from GW or FW, especially those from FW, I think they are awesome to read and the chapters are cool. But the articles are often rather short, there is not much explanation why any chapter has this or that trait, there sometimes are a few hints, but not always. And I think that's fine. So if a DIY writer says his chapter believe in the divinity of the Emperor, why would he need to explain it? It is not common, but nobody asked the author of the Novamarines article (I think that was the one) why they believe that - and it is not said in the article. It is only stated that they do, and it works fine.

 

Except it really doesn't. The Novamarines are a Second Founding chapter. They've met the Emperor. Them coming to worship him as a god is definitely strange. Furthermore, it's not like it's hard to explain. "After generations of recruitment from adherents to the Imperial Cult, the Novamarines have come to see the Emperor as a divine being."

 

As to why an author would need to explain it - because Space Marines don't see the Emperor that way, and it has caused a lot of conflict between them and the rest of the Imperium. It's a very big deal.

 

I won't disagree that an IA full of explanation can be a very bad thing, and unpleasant to read. But I think the author should have these explanations, and that explanations should be included where they help the reader better understand the chapter. Where they're extraneous, they can be left aside or minimized. But explanation is very important - more important than many FW articles make it seem. Every time the reader stops to ask "how the hell would that work", you've failed. And some FW articles fail a lot.

 

I'm not saying you need not explain things that are outright contrary to 40K or unfitting, like female marines or pacifist marines or marines from the missing legions, etc. But having to justify every single divergence from the completely standard chapter-without-character makes it impossible to leave that bit of mystery that often makes stories good. And it does limit creativity, because instead of asking yourself "What would I like my chapter to be like?" you start asking yourself "Will the Liber allow me to make my chapter like this?" or "How will I justify this trait and that trait and this homeworld?"

 

Mystery is not simply lack of explanation. The mystery of where the Blood Ravens came from is a mystery because the chapter is curious about it themselves. Mysteries need some investment in and attachment to the chapter. Just not explaining things is laziness, not good writing.

 

Asking yourself how your chapter would actually work is critical. If you don't have a decent explanation for why your chapter is the way they are, you're not done. You don't have to always tell people. But you should know. That way, if something does become a sticking point for people, you can fix it.

 

Furthermore, there's a deeper purpose behind asking people to explain stuff all the time - it's a good way for people to get a handle on what their chapter's actually like. Once the reader has an idea what the chapter is like, things explain themselves (since the chapter's personality provides sufficient information to infer things) and readers are in a better position to offer suggestions about the chapter. Y'know, that helpful stuff the place supposedly is for. ;)

 

* * *

 

InquisitorHayn

I totally want to sig this, but I can't remember for the life of me how to code the little quote tag with name and date. Help? sad.gif

 

Just to pile on:

 

[quote name='Ace Debonair' date='Oct 9 2011, 04:58 PM' post='2896199']
I don't think it's really limiting someone's creativity when we point out, for instance, that a chapter of Tau-worshipping marines who are secretly really necrons with jetpacks built into their feet kills any believability more effectively than an exterminatus to the face.[/quote]

 

* * *

Brother Tyler

Perhaps the dynamic of the DIY process here in the Liber Astartes forum needs some examination and revision. Perhaps if authors stated their intents and must-haves up front, other members might better understand whether or not the DIY development discussion is one in which they'll desire to participate.

 

The problem with that is that people don't always know what they want when they start out.

 

If someone had asked me what I wanted with my first chapter (the Ice Lords, because we're not talking about the Sons of Vigilance), I would have told them that I wanted a lot of Terminators. While I did, that's not what they're about now, and not really what they were about then. It's what I thought they were about. Same thing with the Stone Hearts.

 

To some extent, the process of being told "no, I don't like That, but I like This instead" is a very good one for creating things both the author and the reader enjoy. Obviously it can end badly on both sides, but I think there is a risk that people will present things as non-negotiable that really aren't, then not get responses.

 

Also, I've been asking people what they want to accomplish with their IAs for ages. 99 times out of 100 you don't get an answer. I'm not certain, but I suspect very much that most people don't have a clue what they're trying to accomplish.

 

Also also, I'm totally finishing the "Answer Mr Morden" section for the Octaguide before you steal all the credit. ;)

 

* * *

Darkchild130

I don't like explaining everything, I've only written one IA and some people didn't "get" certain parts. That doesn't mean i've written it badly, GW does not explain everything in their articles either and I enjoy reading about things with a sense of mystery, so I write like that myself.

 

You don't necessarily have to explain things in the IA - the Bronze Prophets IA, for example, don't ever explain where their geneseed came from (though it's not hard to guess). But you do have to know yourself.

 

Equally, if people are having trouble enjoying your IA because of the questions you have left unanswered, you should look at it and be very certain that you haven't crossed the line from 'mysterious' to 'pointless obscurity' or (even worse) 'not bothering to explain things because I know the answer and am indolent'. :D

[CKO]

Yes, I drew you out octavulg! I appreciate your hard work and dedication that you put into your guide but I believe that with some of our writers who as Tyler mention dont neccessarily need a huge IA may be discourage to continue their work because we make it seem like its a long hard proccess. Should it be hard to fit a small idea into the 40k universe? How come it is so difficult?

 

I believe the paradigm is that writing an IA should be difficult. Whenever I ask myself why do we believe it is difficult, my only answer is because we are told it should be hard be prepared for long boxing matches of presenting and criticing. We understand that some people mess up entirely with female marines but this conversation is not about them. I am referring to vets who because of the paradigm struggle to write IAs. I agree with you restrictions and justifying is good, but what I am saying is that we shouldnt make it seem like its difficult as this makes it harder to write.

 

I noticed i use the wrong paradox instead of paradigm!

 

watch the 2nd part to get a better grasp of what a paradigm is.

[Rafen_2]

At the end of the day what is the point of someone putting up a DIY? Some of us want to do it so we have an explanation of who we are in the 40k universe. Others just want a piece of the action. Me personally, I feel coming up with a DIY is hard work that one has to commit to. So I would just like to (one day) discuss the key points of my DIYs so others get inspiration or just want to talk about them.

 

And CKO, I had a vocab quiz today and one of the words was paradigm so I loled at that.

[Octavulg]

CKO

Yes, I drew you out octavulg!

 

Batman is always nearby. :lol:

 

I appreciate your hard work and dedication that you put into your guide but I believe that with some of our writers who as Tyler mention dont neccessarily need a huge IA may be discourage to continue their work because we make it seem like its a long hard proccess. Should it be hard to fit a small idea into the 40k universe? How come it is so difficult?

 

You know something? I can't recall seeing, in my entire time here, someone show up with a characterful chapter that they don't want to write much about. You'll get one, or the other, but great ideas people don't want to develop at length aren't that common.

 

Now, this could be self-selection - maybe the people who want to just hammer out a paragraph and a color scheme don't show up, intimidated by the grandiosity of our verbiage and the pomposity of our mannerisms (on the other hand, if all you want to write is a paragraph, perhaps you don't need that much help).

 

But in any case, those people don't appear very often. Most people want to tell us a fair bit - not always an IA's worth, mind you, but a good few column inches. Honestly, I think the people who want to write a tiny amount yet also need in-depth critique and advice are a fairly small group.

 

Do I think the Liber can do more to help people accomplish things other than IAs? Yes. Do I think it should? Almost certainly. Do I think that great disservices have been wrought on folk in the interim, and great works destroyed before they even began because people have been tied to the IA format? Not really.

 

I believe the paradigm is that writing an IA should be difficult. Whenever I ask myself why do we believe it is difficult, my only answer is because we are told it should be hard be prepared for long boxing matches of presenting and criticing. We understand that some people mess up entirely with female marines but this conversation is not about them. I am referring to vets who because of the paradigm struggle to write IAs. I agree with you restrictions and justifying is good, but what I am saying is that we shouldnt make it seem like its difficult as this makes it harder to write.

 

The thing is...it kind of is difficult. It shouldn't be difficult because we're being mean to people, or just tearing down everything they produce, but making something good does take work, as does making something of a reasonable length. If people want to hammer out three paragraphs about their chapter, attach a color scheme, and call it a day, I can sympathize with that, and I think they should be able to do that. But the idea that producing a five thousand word paean to your pet Space Marines is something that takes a week is silly. For all that I used to think that myself, before I tried it. :P

 

A lot of people drop out and leave things. It happens. While we should do our best to minimize it, it has a lot more to do with people than with IAs being the format of choice.

 

Also, difficulty discourages people spamming the place with five hundred one paragraph chapters. And since someone else using your chapter's name appears to be a pretty big damper on creativity for a lot of folks, I'm suddenly unsure that IAs being a big undertaking is a bad thing. :huh: There are flaws with the current system, but it does tend to favor people who are committed to their chapter.

[CKO]

You know something? I can't recall seeing, in my entire time here, someone show up with a characterful chapter that they don't want to write much about. You'll get one, or the other, but great ideas people don't want to develop at length aren't that common.

 

Originally, they all came so that I could have the black templars stick around. This was a mary sue way of writing Black Templars into being usable whenever I got around to collecting an apocalypse army.

I just left them in, not wanting to delete them. Even if I leave them in, I'll probably remove the Crimson Fists, since they have so few marines to spare.

 

As for the 2 heavy, they still need to be mobile and flexible as marines.

 

I posted it for criticism and ideas. If people suggest things to add that I like, I may work it in with editing. Mostly just wanted to see how people felt about my fluffing.

 

I hope he doesnt mind me doing this :cuss , but this writer specifically states he just wants to see how people feels about his fluff. Not everyone has the intention of writing master pieces, and I think when we are helping each other we need to be aware of their goals.

 

Now, this could be self-selection - maybe the people who want to just hammer out a paragraph and a color scheme don't show up, intimidated by the grandiosity of our verbiage and the pomposity of our mannerisms (on the other hand, if all you want to write is a paragraph, perhaps you don't need that much help).

 

But in any case, those people don't appear very often.

 

To me that is a problem, they should share their ideas and not be intimidated even if it is just a paragraph. If we get rid of the paradigm (IA's are difficult) and inspire creativity with our C&C than perhaps we will inspire this person to write an IA. The person will become more serious and decide to write a better IA a perfect example of this is the Silver Sharks . At first it was a little fishy :D , but now I believe he is going to try to make it better. Once the writer has decided that he wants a serious IA that is when they should read your guide.

 

Most people want to tell us a fair bit - not always an IA's worth, mind you, but a good few column inches. Honestly, I think the people who want to write a tiny amount yet also need in-depth critique and advice are a fairly small group.

 

You are right it may not be an IAs worth but we still should help them make their fluff as good as possible.

 

Do I think the Liber can do more to help people accomplish things other than IAs? Yes. Do I think it should? Almost certainly. Do I think that great disservices have been wrought on folk in the interim, and great works destroyed before they even began because people have been tied to the IA format? Not really.

 

I do, because I have started stop started stop and I have yet to complete an IA. The format is not the problem its the idea that the process is a long and difficult journey is the problem.

 

The thing is...it kind of is difficult. It shouldn't be difficult because we're being mean to people, or just tearing down everything they produce, but making something good does take work, as does making something of a reasonable length. If people want to hammer out three paragraphs about their chapter, attach a color scheme, and call it a day, I can sympathize with that, and I think they should be able to do that. But the idea that producing a five thousand word paean to your pet Space Marines is something that takes a week is silly. For all that I used to think that myself, before I tried it. :P

 

Why use the word difficult, why not use exciting? I feel that currently we think that producing a five thousand word IA is difficult. Why cant we make it to where I think that writing my five thousand word IA is exciting? What is preventing us from thinking that way, a paradigm.

 

A lot of people drop out and leave things. It happens. While we should do our best to minimize it, it has a lot more to do with people than with IAs being the format of choice.

 

The idea of someone leaving or dropping out is bad and I agree it is not the IAs format fault. We need to make sure they are not leaving because of the atmosphere we are creating.

 

Also, difficulty discourages people spamming the place with five hundred one paragraph chapters. And since someone else using your chapter's name appears to be a pretty big damper on creativity for a lot of folks, I'm suddenly unsure that IAs being a big undertaking is a bad thing. :huh: There are flaws with the current system, but it does tend to favor people who are committed to their chapter.

 

I dont see anything wrong with paragraph chapters as they are potential IAs. Its like a process it goes from paragraph to essay to IAs, and I agree the IAs should be a big undertaking that the writer should be excited about.

 

Octavulg you have already done an excellent job with your guide with basically everything. Ace in his Steel Dragons thread and me in my Chapter 2.0 thread are trying to create away to write an IA while under surveliance to prevent errors. By doing it this way we are inspired to continue our work and our ideas are criticed instantly and hopefully at the end they will be good IAs.

[Shinzaren]

To me that is a problem, they should share their ideas and not be intimidated even if it is just a paragraph. If we get rid of the paradigm (IA's are difficult) and inspire creativity with our C&C than perhaps we will inspire this person to write an IA. The person will become more serious and decide to write a better IA a perfect example of this is the Silver Sharks . At first it was a little fishy :cuss , but now I believe he is going to try to make it better. Once the writer has decided that he wants a serious IA that is when they should read your guide.

The biggest problem with a paragraph chapter is that one paragraph can't relay enough information to the reader to really understand the marines. At best it will sum up all the relevant points without much backround on them, and at worst it will convey only one thing about them. While a paragraph is a great way to start telling us about a chapter, its not enough, and when it needs to be expanded, the IA format is the most common and most useful way to do that. It has a section for each bit of relevant information, and sections can be added or removed without too much hassle. While another format could do that just well, the IA format is already here and it works.

 

You are right it may not be an IAs worth but we still should help them make their fluff as good as possible.

I don't think anyone would disagree. Regardless of length or format, we should always do our best to help develop their fluff/backround, which I think we do. From paragraph to IA length, the comments and critiques will be largely similar. If you have a paragraph about marines based on a Forgeworld, or an IA about marines based on a Forgeworld, my response will be the same: Don't base marines on a Forgeworld. Length/format shouldn't affect the ability to give an author feedback.

 

I do, because I have started stop started stop and I have yet to complete an IA. The format is not the problem its the idea that the process is a long and difficult journey is the problem.

Nothing worth doing is ever easy. Regardless of format or length, forming a wholly unique idea and working it through from start to finish will always be a pretty difficult task. If the problem is that it is too hard, then I'm not sure how to fix it. Crafting anything good is always difficult, but that is half the fun. When you eventually complete a product you are happy, whether after minutes or years, you can look back on it with pride.

 

Why use the word difficult, why not use exciting? I feel that currently we think that producing a five thousand word IA is difficult. Why cant we make it to where I think that writing my five thousand word IA is exciting? What is preventing us from thinking that way, a paradigm.

I think the word difficult is fine, because it is difficult. It is also exciting. I think writing an IA is great fun, which is why I am working on my second one. I had a TON of difficulty getting my first IA together, as seen by the remarkable difference between draft one and the current version. I also had a ton of fun discarding ideas and coming up with new ones. It was hard and it was exciting. The reason it worked then, and will continue to work for The Blades is because of the Liber. I need to make changes to the Blades IA. It will be difficult trying to trim the length, but people have said, and I agree, that is too long. It will also be fun trying to come up with ways to trim the fat and still convey my ideas.

 

The idea of someone leaving or dropping out is bad and I agree it is not the IAs format fault. We need to make sure they are not leaving because of the atmosphere we are creating.

I agree completely, and if the atmosphere of the Liber is causing problems it needs to change. I am one of the more hard-line critiquers(sp?) along with NightrawenII, but I always try to end each C&C post with something positive and give some advice on how to extrapolate the good ideas and trim the bad ones. If I am being too hard on people, then I will gladly accept that criticism and work on being nicer and more accepting of some of the more...unique... ideas. I admit that the Liber can be a tough place from time to time, but I also think it is generally positive and helpful to others. At least that is how I see it...

 

I dont see anything wrong with paragraph chapters as they are potential IAs. Its like a process it goes from paragraph to essay to IAs, and I agree the IAs should be a big undertaking that the writer should be excited about.

I think a paragraph is great place to start, because it gives the author a chance to test the waters with a potential idea and see how people react. If it goes over poorly or amazingly, than he can adapt accordingly. No one is saying a paragraph chapter is a bad way to start.

[Octavulg]

I hope he doesnt mind me doing this rolleyes.gif , but this writer specifically states he just wants to see how people feels about his fluff. Not everyone has the intention of writing master pieces, and I think when we are helping each other we need to be aware of their goals.

 

He's got 1437 words, by my count. The shortest official IAs are the Flesh Tearers and Blood Ravens, which are about 2340 each. I'd say he's written much (not as much as some, but a fair bit). He's got something a lot longer than an Armageddon War report, or one of those notes in C:SM.

 

I do, because I have started stop started stop and I have yet to complete an IA. The format is not the problem its the idea that the process is a long and difficult journey is the problem.

 

Surely the fact that you've repeatedly failed to complete an IA would suggest that it is a long and difficult journey... :cuss

 

Are you seriously claiming you haven't finished an IA because people have said that making an IA takes time and effort?

 

Why use the word difficult, why not use exciting? I feel that currently we think that producing a five thousand word IA is difficult. Why cant we make it to where I think that writing my five thousand word IA is exciting? What is preventing us from thinking that way, a paradigm.

 

Because it is difficult. I've done it. Four times. It's rewarding, it's enjoyable, I'm glad I did it, and it takes work, and time, and thought. It is not easy. It is, in fact, difficult. Especially for people who don't naturally enjoy some or all aspects of the process.

 

I dont see anything wrong with paragraph chapters as they are potential IAs. Its like a process it goes from paragraph to essay to IAs, and I agree the IAs should be a big undertaking that the writer should be excited about.

 

Except there will be people who only want to make paragraphs. And while that's OK too, a guy who makes twenty or thirty paragraph chapters for giggles can have a negative effect on other people by discouraging them from creating ideas similar to his (a lot of people, for example, don't like using a chapter name that's been used before).

 

Don't think it couldn't happen. There are people who make ten IAs.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

for my own part- the quibbles and questions i tend to ask are more (i hope) because i dont think the writer has actually thought through their ideas fully- current example being DAT's nearby thread... Its a kneejerk reaction to the - terminators are awesome so my chapter only has terminators problem. By which i mean someone doing that has appeared to forget that part of the reason terminators are awesome is that the guys inside are chapter veterans, with maybe hundreds of years of combat experience, they really are the best of the best, and that experience needs learning before they are entrusted with incredibly rare terminator armour. I can live with 300 terminators in a chapter, as long as there are still scouts and pa marines in there to do all the things tda cant do.

'hears his name being mentioned'

 

Hmmmmmm? :cuss

 

Well, this is certainly interesting.

 

To put my own meagre input, I have always been one for standards. That is what an IA format for the Liber does - it creates a standard. With this, we have the Liber produce notably fewer, but much higher quality chapters, because that's the nature of standards.

 

As one of the people who was worried that Nightrawen was refering to me when he was talking about creative people, I do not think the IA format or the standard of fitting within GW quidelines that hinders creativity. It is we, the editors, who hinder creativity. As Ace said, we sometime approach with a bowling ball rather than a tennis ball of truth and fact.

 

Does this change that we are right? No, no it does not. However, our methods are still flawed, despite that they are supported by the fluff. Our mentality when approaching an idea or the beginning of an IA that is the problem.

 

Instead of stamping out bad ideas and replacing them with more fitting ones, we should find the theme or character of the chapter amongst the inexperience. Instead of informing of them of which lines they cannot cross, we should show them just how wide the box they have to play with. Instead of disregarding something that's taboo or already used, we should show them a few examples of where there are very, very similar ideas.

 

Do you notice I'm saying that instead of doing one thing, you should do the same thing? It's not about the action itself - its about the mentality we apply to the critiquing process. If you expect a project to fail, it will fail, if you expect it to stall, it will stall, but if you expect it to be entered into the Librarium not very long will pass before that is done.

 

I know that sounds like a load of crap. It is, however, the truth, and it has been proven time and time again. Indeed, I expected harsh criticism and negative comparisons to come when I started the Angel's recently* - and lo and behold :huh:

 

CKO is taking it a little too far, however, if he believes that it is long and hard purely because of the thought process. While comparing making an IA to climbing Mt. Everest is comparing a mountain to a molehill, ther are both inherently difficult things to do, because both require a lot of thought and effort. He is correct if he is saying it adds to the difficulty, but it is not purely because of that.

 

 

*I realize this is common sense as opposed to mentality, but you understand my meaning on both points.

[CKO]

Thank you apostle that is exactly what I am trying to say!

[legoss]

Wow, this thread has blown my mind, and opened my eyes to a personal shortcoming. I've been playing warhammer since just after 4th edition started, and since then I have been working on my DIY the Fallen Sons. I have yet to post anything on here, but I have stacks of papers with all sorts of ideas scribbled on them. I have been wanting to post an IA on here, I see it as the pinnacle to reach as far as my fluff goes, but I haven't actually done it despite writing well over the 5000 words in all my notes. I don't fear the criticism on the board, that's the reason to post on here to begin with.

 

I'm not afraid of putting in the work, the Sons are often the only thing I think about when I have spare time. But reading through this thread I realized what my problem was, my own lack of skill writing. For me writing is very difficult to crank out with any great quality, and I'm afraid to sell my hobby short. I'm afraid not of making my marines too awesome, or of putting in the time to make them work, I'm afraid of falling short of the quality of the IA's already on this site.

 

The B&C in general, and the Liber specifically are some of the most knowledgeable people when it comes to power armor, because you're all very passionate about it. Octavulg has several quotes sigged that are perfect examples of what I mean. Liberites aren't harsh out of some misplaced cruelty or sadistic outlet, I firmly believe that they really do want you to succeed, even the harshest of critics like Nightwraven. We should all be striving to create original, engaging ideas for our chapter/warband/crusade, but we also need to make an attempt to fit it into this shared universe we've chosen.

 

This may be my longest post ever on the boards, but I just wanted to try and explain how enlightened I felt after reading the thread, and seeing so many of the boards heavy bitters weighing in with their ideas and opinions.