B&C Support for Local Gaming

[Bryan Blaire]

Personal Opinion: Honestly, reading your latest comment, this comes off more as an "I Told You So" than anything.

[momosgarage]

Personal Opinion: Honestly, reading your latest comment, this comes off more as an "I Told You So" than anything.

 

I'll be honest and say you are correct.  However, my concern is that the B&C will go belly up shortly after Brother Argos's departure and funding withdrawal; which is ironic because he was somewhat dismissive of my idea to help make the B&C self-sustainable, during a period where he felt it wasn't necessary to go through the hassle (despite the real possibility that he could serve on the Board within such an organization, regardless any physical disabilities). 

 

Hope, I’m wrong and the B&C is here for another decade, only time will tell.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Websites come and go. I like this one and will support it as long as it maintains its long standing spirit. I still believe the B+C being a "grand lodge" for local clubs and tournaments is not a good idea, though I'm open to ideas that would protect staff and supporters and members for funding drives or even if the B+C needs a pay gate to keep going.

[Black Cohort]

Considering that B & C raised more than the amount needed for the entire year in about a week, I doubt B & C is going anywhere due to money reasons.

[Teetengee]

This is a fairly expensive hobby, I imagine the 60000+ members can afford at least a dollar per 20 people. That being said, I am not opposed to trying some collective bargaining with gw through this site, but I don't think it will be necessary to keep it alive.

[momosgarage]

Websites come and go. I like this one and will support it as long as it maintains its long standing spirit. I still believe the B+C being a "grand lodge" for local clubs and tournaments is not a good idea, though I'm open to ideas that would protect staff and supporters and members for funding drives or even if the B+C needs a pay gate to keep going.

 

Thanks for rentering the discussion, you previously brought up some valid points. 

 

To recap the overview, which includes my revisions based on the comments made by -Max-, imagine the following scenario with the B&C opperating as a non-prfot  parent club:

 

1) The B&C becomes first official 40k non-profit organization, acting as the guiding parent club organization to smaller, local, non-profit clubs, as they form up over time. The smaller clubs collect dues from members and pass on part of those fees to the B&C.  These smaller clubs are listed as affiliated members and follow all of the rules set forth by the B&C. Individuals can also pay their dues directly to the B&C, if they don't have a local club to join.

 

2) Clubs affiliated with the B&C can have sub-pages on the forum, listing thier upcomming event for everyone around the world to see and attend.  These clubs, holding non-profit status, can then organize bulk purchases from "trusted sources", while also limiting themsleves to regions where shipping and taxes will not become an issue.

 

3) The now, non-profit registerd, B&C pays no TAXES on revenue, nor do any of the smaller affiliated clubs.  Imagine a type of discount sharing model where all revenue collected in the form of "member dues" goes back directly into the club members pockets, in the form GW merchandise bought at below cost.

 

4) Secondary issues: the B&C collects and tracks tournament data and player profiles with a leader board.  Hences creating a real reason for the smaller clubs to pay dues, regularly, to the parent club (i.e. the B&C) Since clubs will be affiliated with the B&C, abiding with thier by-laws and guidlines, official reporting schemes can be developed.  The B&C can then become the Facebook/Linkedin or WHATEVER of the 40K gaming community.  Using things like Kickstarter and indiegogo makes this a no brainer today, somebody at the B&C just needs to initiate the process of registering as a not-for-profit organization.

 

There is a LOT of potential here, someone just needs to feel the need to make it real. I don't think that persons me, but thats because I don't have any investment of my time, behind the scenes, maintaining this specific forum. There are people here, however, whom DO and have worked on the forums techical aspects and community growth, for a substantial amount of time.  I'd say it is definately worth thier time to take this next step, especially for something that they have already personally invested a decade in.

[Teetengee]

I feel like the bnc is a bad choice for this because of the armies of humanity restriction. Otherwise the idea would have some promise, but since we can't post nonhumanity related things here, it would be bad form to create a leaderboard and other such activities restricted only to the players of board approved armies.

[Firepower]

The idea sort of makes my skin crawl, really.  It smacks of commercialization to such a point that it feels like you suggest making the BnC the Facebook of Warhammer.  I would not like this.

 

But regardless of merits/faults in the idea, it seems to me to be in especially poor taste to do this 'I told ya so' sort of thing before Argos' chair is even cold.  Especially seeing as I linked here from the thread made to wish him well and share the blessings of the community he helped create.  A really shameless way to try making this point, especially in such a setting and time.

[momosgarage]

I feel like the bnc is a bad choice for this because of the armies of humanity restriction. Otherwise the idea would have some promise, but since we can't post nonhumanity related things here, it would be bad form to create a leaderboard and other such activities restricted only to the players of board approved armies.

 

 

If the B&C were to become a non-profit, the forum aspect would no longer be the focus, just the outlet.  As for brading, topics, etc, showcased on the forum, that would be open for the B&C staff to change as needed.  The real value here is in the recognition and popularity of the "bolter & chainsword" namesake.  That fact alone gives it a better start and chance for long-term success than 99% of the non-profits being formed right this minute.

[Honda]

@momosgarage: Long story short: You've made a lot of assumptions based on your idea, but there really doesn't seem to be any indication based on any data to support what you are proposing. Also, historically speaking, "I've got this great idea, but I don't have time to work on it" isn't that effective an approach for initiating a project.

 

Ideas are "great", but execution is what really counts.

 

Also, when I first read your proposal, the first impression I had was that you wanted someone to organized a BnC union and that somehow/someway all the gamers would flock to this "opportunity". I understand that's not your intent, but I am really struggling to understand in your conceptual model, why anyone other than those at the top  of the pyramid would be interested in participating.

 

Not trying to infer that you are proposing a scam, but what about this idea is supposed to be attractive to Joe Gamer who rolls dice twice a month?

[Warsmith Aznable]

If the B&C were to become a non-profit, the forum aspect would no longer be the focus

This is the biggest problem I have with your vision. The B+C works because it is very good at what it does. Your idea piggy backs on that accumulated goodwill and participation to drive it in a different and frankly dubious direction. It strikes me as a "paved with good intentions" situation. The B+C should definitely assure the financial protection of the admins who handle it's business, but if the methods aren't ultimately to directly benefit the forum as it is and has been, then you've lost the plot.

[Bryan Blaire]

Let's consider this one buttoned up, with no further posting needed by anyone until the Admins get a chance to examine and respond.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I've changed the topic title to reflect the shift in discussion (see below).

 

Looking back over this topic, the problem is that there is too much focus on the "tax-exempt" portion (admittedly, an essential element of the discussion due to the topic title) and not enough on the potential of the B&C to have a more direct hand in positively impacting game play (whether informal or as part of an organized group).

 

Practically speaking, the tax-exempt issue is putting the cart before the horse and is based on a number of assumptions (at least some of which may be incorrect) as well as implications that are of supreme importance.

 

The most important issue in the tax-exempt discussion is that it creates a need for membership dues. While many websites utilize paid advertising as a means of generating the funds to run, this is a step we have deliberately avoided because we want to keep the aesthetics clean (most users don't like the clutter that advertisements create). Based on my research within the links that were provided, funds from advertising would be capped at 35% anyways, so membership dues would be essential in making up the remaining 65% of funds needed for the regular upkeep and maintenance of the site. This would mean that hobbyists would have to pay regular dues in order to participate in and enjoy the benefits of the site. This is a recourse that we have deliberately avoided for years, with David paying out of his pocket for the majority of site upkeep/maintenance and fundraisers (donations from members) for occasional upgrades (hardware and/or software). There are many reasons for this, including, but not limited to, the limited resources available to many of our members; the reduction in membership that we would have (good for keeping spammers down, but that doesn't make up for losing real hobbyists); the complications of banning members (and potentially having to reimburse them on a pro-rated scale); etc.

 

We have discussed methods for generating funds in the past, but we continually run into a combination of two things. First, we don't want to reduce members' enjoyment of the site (both the qualitative aspect of not having advertisements as well as the quantitative aspect of more members being able to participate since there are no membership fees). Second, the site's members have historically been enthusiastically supportive of the site when funds were needed.

 

Now momosgarage's concerns have been reignited by David stepping down and the impending shift in upkeep/maintenance funds from him to the larger site membership. The current concern is based on status quo requirements (upkeep/maintenance). This is a valid concern. While we have been able to raise funds fairly quickly in the past when needed, we are now talking about a permanent shift. So past performance isn't necessarily indicative of the future. The converse of this is that the change in climate doesn't necessarily mean that future performance won't live up to past performance, though.

 

Again, too, the international makeup of our membership adds several layers of complication. At the very least, U.S. tax code becomes irrelevant, rendering the basic suggestion invalid.

 

And then we have the focus of the B&C with regard to subject-matter. If we were to retain our focus on the forces of the Imperium and Chaos, the hypothetical tournament circuit would be pretty boring (granted, more than half of the armies of the game universe are represented, but I doubt the lack of xenos would ever make such tournaments credible in the eyes of the larger hobby community). Alternately, if we were to broaden our focus, whether solely for the tournaments or even at the larger site, we might as well just merge with one of the other big all-WH40K sites.

 

=][= So as far as the suggestion to turn the B&C into an official tax exempt non-profit entity goes, that won't be happening. Period. End of discussion. =][=

 

Don't worry - we have plans in place in case we reach a point where member donations aren't sufficient to sustain the site. As the saying goes, "hope is not a plan," so we've explored alternatives in case we need to implement plan B.

 

What I want the discussion to focus on from here on out, though, is the potential for the B&C to positively impact our members at the local level. And it's necessary that we have some naysayers in order to keep the good idea fairy from getting carried away. There are probably a lot of things that could happen, but which might be unnecessarily complicated or have significant negative potential (if executed poorly or through deceit). Also, the logistical implications of lots of good ideas are very easy to overlook. So you naysayers - provide an analysis of ideas from a logistical perspective in order to better help others understand what challenges the various good ideas face, how they might be overcome/mitigated, or if the challenges render the ideas impractical.

 

Interestingly enough, the last link that momosgarage provided about the D.C. D&D players doesn't require the tax-exempt non-profit status. More importantly, members of our site have already executed similar efforts (re: Ultra-Meets in 2012 and 2013). The mods/admins have also facilitated meeting/gaming in person on occasion, and I'm certain that this isn't a practice limited to the mods/admins. Similarly, the B&C has hosted hobby tables at several Games Days. We might look into the potential of having B&C tables at other similar conventions. Likewise, how can the B&C be a vehicle for supporting efforts within your local clubs/game stores? Some good ideas will require monetary support, while others can be done with little/no money.

 

If we decide to pursue ideas that require money, our first option is benevolent hobbyists (all of the B&C Games Day tables that I supported were financed on a completely voluntary manner by all of the members involved - meaning that I chose to spend my own money for the majority of the requirements and other members donated their time/minis to the cause), while our second option is benevolent hobbyists (in this case, members donating the funds to support the event).

 

Mass purchases from GW/FW/BL are not on the table (and I doubt they'd support them in any event - history hasn't shown them to offer such discounts, let alone have sales).

 

Another aspect we can look at is content that might be generated at the B&C and made available for local use. We already have this, but I doubt that most players capitalize on web-based content to its fullest potential. Such content ranges from rules interpretations (both RAW and RAI) as well as homegrown rules, scenarios, etc. Could we generate a basic package for conducting local events with B&C "sponsorship" (not financial), with players being able to select whatever content they want for their event? For example, we might dust off the AoD rules so that players can conduct AoDs at their local stores/clubs. Or enterprising players might create campaigns/missions that anyone can use.

 

Here's something that has been in the works: Emperor willing, next summer we'll be conducting a worldwide campaign coordinated via the B&C. This all depends on my ability to run it (which will depend upon both my work schedule and my masters program providing me with enough free time, of course). And the one I have planned for next summer is only the precursor to an even more involved worldwide campaign one or two years later. There's no reason that others can't conduct similar things via the B&C.

 

There are lots of things that the B&C can do to support gaming at the local level without the need to drastically change the legal nature of the site. What do you think we can/should do? And how can we actually make these things happen in a practical manner?

[Teetengee]

I like the idea of a tournament circuit but here are my thoughts on it.

Pros:

BnC lends credibility and weight of numbers.

Tracking and ratings could be easily done through the trusted site that is the BnC.

Cons:

At least for the brackets and tracking, we would have to allow xenos players to participate (which is the only way to seriously do a tournament circuit.).

 

Possible solution.

Create a subforum (perhaps near/in Tactica) that has the following stickied threads:

1. Rankings (Perhaps one each for Maelstrom and for Eternal War, or maybe more for doubles and such...)

2. Rules for Tournaments (probably want to include links to the OR section, perhaps the Homegrown as well depending on decisions we make)

3. Rules for subforum including

     a. No posting pics here (use battle reports area if site appropriate)

     b. How to report results

 

The rest of the topics would be about organizing tournaments for the circuit and for other tournament related queries and suggestions. Perhaps changes to TO rules or such.

These would mean that Xenos could participate in tournaments and be ranked but still have an extremely limited presence here on the BnC. I.e. there would be no more xenos infiltration allowed than is already seen in battle reports, the OR section, and the Tactica section. (less in fact)

The Tactica, OR, and Battle Reports rules might need to be emphasized as well. The BnC is a forum for the armies of humanity, as such we allow only limited discussion of Xenos armies here. The new development of a ranked tournament circuit does not change the focus of this forum. (Then we go on to mention how the BnC exists so that human armies have a site focused on them not because we want to exclude xenos and give links to the various websites the BnC links to in such matters.)

[Quozzo]

i think teetengee hit it on the nail. Any sort of tournament will have those filthy xenos. I think we should keep with the tried and tested method of B&C policy of no xeno pictures or discussion. There is of course one game that is comprised solely of Space Marines: 30K!

[conscriptboris]

I am definately intrigued by this and I am going to look at the possibilty of tax reduced club/organised goods within my country

 

However couldn't you just run one within the US by asking the B&C to use the B&C name and a part of the forum? Possibly royalties to the upkeep?

[zebbie]

I am not for a minute even pretending to have read the entirety of this thread, my suggestion is that members profiles/signatures have links to club membership on them and maybe some sort of page as a club directory, maybe with some kind of event list/calendar sort-able by region? Could be particularly helpful.