IA: Steel Dragons

[Ace Debonair]

This space reserved for the eventual IA drafts as and when they occur.

 

 

After being given a rather neat idea by Brother Tyler, I'm trying something new regarding chapter creation.

 

It's a slightly clunky and thorough approach, admittedly, but no doubt it'll be like mobile phones and the next 'must-have'/'might-have' list will be slimmer, more efficient and able to take pictures, and so on and so on.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Ace Debonair

[Ace Debonair]

Righto then.

Here's the drill.

 

Instead of hitting you with a vague, half-formed IA and waiting to see it torn back down to the conceptual bedrock, I'm going to start with something new.

 

Namely, dividing my ideas into 'must-have' and 'might-have' categories.

 

They are still subject to change if needs be, but my goal is to create a chapter that incorporates the 'Must-Have' ideas.

The 'Might-Have's are just bonuses, really, but include stuff I'd like to work in, and one wacky idea that occured to me just now.

 

So, without further ado:

 

 

'Must Haves' or Ace's Checklist of Core Ideas:

 

~The Intent:~

 

With the Steel Dragons, I want to create a Chapter who are a byword for brutal efficiency, and don't really play nice with anybody. (except maybe the admech - those tanks don't grow on trees!)

 

They're also going to be borderline insane in many cases, and in a permanent state of barely-controlled agressiveness.

 

 

~Homeworld:~

* The homeworld is going to be based vaguely on ancient China, because the idea of recruiting from vast, thousand-year-old warring kingdoms really appeals to me and I haven't really done that for one of my chapters yet. Also, ancient china was badass.

 

* Large and dangerous homeworld creates plenty of potential recruits for the Dragons, with children being drafted in to fight in the bitter, ancient inter-kingdom conflicts.

 

~Combat Doctrine:~

 

* The Steel Dragons wage every war like it's going out of fashion. They basically hit enemy forces with everything at once(**), relying on a very precise doctrine of attacks, and a combination of astartes toughness, strength, and explosive firepower to mince enemies up as quickly as powerful.

 

* Obviously that's going to lead to some losses. Which, if anything, will make the surviving SD more angry and more driven to perfect their blitzkrieg-esque combat style. (The "no mere xeno should survive that sort of attack long enough to kill brother Bob, we must be doing it wrong. WE MUST TRAIN HARDER!" sort of mentality.)

 

(**) Everything in this case being Artillery, tanks, thunderhawks, drop pods, marines, scouts, terminators, everything. The Steel Dragons don't do half-measures!

 

* They're the sort of guys who are always tightly wound - and there are occasionally worrying reports of marines becoming almost crazed with bloodlust in the midst of a battle, although since the SD prefer to fight alone, these reports seldom see the light of day. In the case of actual berserker rages that persist after the battle, said berserker is executed with prejudice, his corpse burnt, and his ashes scattered to the winds.

 

~Beliefs:~

 

* Metal > Flesh, sure, but the Steel Dragons are more interested in the strength itself than where it comes from. That's probably borderline heresy in and of itself, and is certainly a dangerous obsession to have!

 

* Absolute sticklers for combat efficiency. Cleared that city of heretics? Probably could have done it faster. Killed that Warboss? Probably could have taken down the ork next to him with the follow-up-swing. They keep pushing themselves to do better in every battle. Marines who don't believe they've improved punish themselves for 'showing weakness' and are prone to doing so even over the slightest faults.

 

 

'Might Haves' or Ace's Checklist of Other Ideas:

 

 

* Iron Hands successors, with the clan-company organisation and love of bionics that follows. I forget how many clan-companies there are, though.

 

* The SD don't play nice with most other imperial forces, viewing almost everyone who requires the Dragons to come in and clean up their mess as too weak to do the job themselves.

 

* They nearly always work alone as a consequence, and not caring what the plans of any other Imperial forces involved in their combats are, conducting fights on their terms and in their preferred way.

 

* On occasions where they have to work with other Chapters, they are constantly wary of other Astartes trying to outperform them, though not quite to the point of open hostility.

 

* On good terms with the AdMech though, allowing them to actually survive being hostile to nearly everyone else. The Imperium is not a good place to have no friends!

 

* Possibly located near the galactic east, so I can have them scrapping with tyranids, suffering losses, and being too damn proud to ask for help.

 

* Possibly make them cursed founding, with the permanent borderline-fury as the curse? Maybe hints at the use of World Eater geneseed rather than Iron Hands? (Before you jump down my throat about this, it's just an idea, and will never be stated outright even if I go ahead with it. The Steel Dragons are pretty close to how I'd make a theoretical loyalist WE successor anyhow, so it might be worth playing with if there's room.)

 

~Colour Scheme:~

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?b62c=@hQZpL_hLKco.huU1b@@@@@@@i6hFq@hk8Yt@@..@_@@__@@__@_._.@@@_@@@@_@hCmX3hk8Yt@@@@@@_@@@@@@hk8Ytiakk7&grid=TRUEhttp://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?b62c=@hQZpL_i8y3o.huU1b@@@@@@@hIvNI@hk8Yt@@..@_@@__@@__@_._.@@@_@@@@_@hCmX3hk8Yt@@@@@@_@@@@@@hk8Ytiakk7&grid=TRUE

 

One of the above. They were originally orange, but I think I like the green one better. Opinions valued.

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

Alrighty. So there's my ideas up to now.

 

I've made no effort to seperate the good ones and the bad, and just typed everything as it occured to me, which is why the order might be a bit squiffy.

 

 

Feel free to pick apart these concepts, but please bear the following in mind.

The 'might haves' can be torn out wholesale if needs be.

The 'must haves' are going to stay in unless everybody in the liber decries them as awful ideas, and even then I'm more open to adjusting them rather than removing them.

 

So, a slightly new approach to both the creation process and the C&C process - help me make the 'must-haves' work!

 

EDIT:

Trying something new, but still with all the same old typos.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Ace Debonair

[legoss]

Wow Ace, I read the earlier thread about limiting creativity, finished reading it, and lo and behold, you've been true to your word, posting the Steel Dragons list almost instantly. Love reading your IA's and hope this one is to the same high standards.

[Ace Debonair]

Wow Ace, I read the earlier thread about limiting creativity, finished reading it, and lo and behold, you've been true to your word, posting the Steel Dragons list almost instantly. Love reading your IA's and hope this one is to the same high standards.

Cheers, matey!

I'm a man of my word, what can I say? :P

To be honest, I've been wanting to post my half-completed IA for a few days now, but I think this new approach might actually get me better results.

 

I think these guys could be a lot of fun to write about - I just have to make sure they're just as much fun to read! :P

[Shinzaren]

With the Steel Dragons, I want to create a Chapter who are a byword for brutal efficiency, and don't really play nice with anybody. (except maybe the admech - those tanks don't grow on trees!)

You and The Blades could be unfriendly friends :D They don't play nice at all either.

 

They're also going to be borderline insane in many cases, and in a permanent state of barely-controlled agressiveness.

Anti-hero marines are my favorite kind.

 

~Homeworld:~

* The homeworld is going to be based vaguely on ancient China, because the idea of recruiting from vast, thousand-year-old warring kingdoms really appeals to me and I haven't really done that for one of my chapters yet. Also, ancient china was badass.

Just remember that you need to make sure their tech level doesn't progress too far, or you have Communism :P Otherwise... yeah, China was cool. Three-Kingdoms era has a ton of inspiration.

 

* Large and dangerous homeworld creates plenty of potential recruits for the Dragons, with children being drafted in to fight in the bitter, ancient inter-kingdom conflicts.

Of course :P

 

* The Steel Dragons wage every war like it's going out of fashion. They basically hit enemy forces with everything at once(**), relying on a very precise doctrine of attacks, and a combination of astartes toughness, strength, and explosive firepower to mince enemies up as quickly as powerful.

:P

 

* Obviously that's going to lead to some losses. Which, if anything, will make the surviving SD more angry and more driven to perfect their blitzkrieg-esque combat style. (The "no mere xeno should survive that sort of attack long enough to kill brother Bob, we must be doing it wrong. WE MUST TRAIN HARDER!" sort of mentality.)

Do they get angry at allies for not being able to keep up?

 

(**) Everything in this case being Artillery, tanks, thunderhawks, drop pods, marines, scouts, terminators, everything. The Steel Dragons don't do half-measures!

Steal some super-heavies from the Guard. They won't miss them...

 

* They're the sort of guys who are always tightly wound - and there are occasionally worrying reports of marines becoming almost crazed with bloodlust in the midst of a battle, although since the SD prefer to fight alone, these reports seldom see the light of day. In the case of actual berserker rages that persist after the battle, said berserker is executed with prejudice, his corpse burnt, and his ashes scattered to the winds.

Blood Angels gene-seed? The Ancient Vikings saw the Berserker Rage as a gift from Odin. Maybe yours are the same way? Everyone aspire to attain the pure rage state when you are at the absolute peak of your strength? Invincible, unstoppable warriors? Emperor's gift to the Steel Dragons?

 

* Metal > Flesh, sure, but the Steel Dragons are more interested in the strength itself than where it comes from. That's probably borderline heresy in and of itself, and is certainly a dangerous obsession to have!

But a totally cool one.

 

* Absolute sticklers for combat efficiency. Cleared that city of heretics? Probably could have done it faster. Killed that Warboss? Probably could have taken down the ork next to him with the follow-up-swing. They keep pushing themselves to do better in every battle. Marines who don't believe they've improved punish themselves for 'showing weakness' and are prone to doing so even over the slightest faults.

Again, are they super tough on their allies as well?

 

 

* Iron Hands successors, with the clan-company organisation and love of bionics that follows. I forget how many clan-companies there are, though.

10 Clans.

 

* The SD don't play nice with most other imperial forces, viewing almost everyone who requires the Dragons to come in and clean up their mess as too weak to do the job themselves.

Do they mock/beat the incompetent fools?

 

* They nearly always work alone as a consequence, and not caring what the plans of any other Imperial forces involved in their combats are, conducting fights on their terms and in their preferred way.

Do they... incur allied casualties? What are their views on friendly fire/innocent non-combatants?

 

* On occasions where they have to work with other Chapters, they are constantly wary of other Astartes trying to outperform them, though not quite to the point of open hostility.

What about other chapters that are as berserker mad as they are? Flesh Tearers for example?

 

* On good terms with the AdMech though, allowing them to actually survive being hostile to nearly everyone else. The Imperium is not a good place to have no friends!

 

* Possibly located near the galactic east, so I can have them scrapping with tyranids, suffering losses, and being too damn proud to ask for help.

Tyranids and Orks. This Chapter NEEDS to fight Orks. Rage vs Rage in a bloody battle to the Ragey End.

 

* Possibly make them cursed founding, with the permanent borderline-fury as the curse? Maybe hints at the use of World Eater geneseed rather than Iron Hands? (Before you jump down my throat about this, it's just an idea, and will never be stated outright even if I go ahead with it. The Steel Dragons are pretty close to how I'd make a theoretical loyalist WE successor anyhow, so it might be worth playing with if there's room.)

Eh... Traitor Geneseed is always tricky. Hint too much and its obvious and shot down. Hint too little and everyone is confused. Why not just have Iron Hands? You adopted the Clan Council and hatred of weakness? Besides, they can be just as brutal.

 

For Colors, I would definitely say the Orange looks fantastic. Much angrier and more dangerous looking.

 

Lastly:

 

BLOOD FOR THE EMPEROR GOD! RAGE!!!

[Donkey Kong]

Alright,

-Efficient

-Introverted

-Insane

 

Got it.

 

Homeworld sounds fine. It would be an interesting spin on the concept if the Dragons provoked the conflicts.

 

In the case of actual berserker rages that persist after the battle, said berserker is executed with prejudice, his corpse burnt, and his ashes scattered to the winds.

 

Smells like Death Company to me. I would adjust it so that it's just a battle thing, and avoid the messy responsibility altogether.

 

* Metal > Flesh, sure, but the Steel Dragons are more interested in the strength itself than where it comes from. That's probably borderline heresy in and of itself, and is certainly a dangerous obsession to have!

 

The latter could supersede the former in every way, shape, and form.

 

* Iron Hands successors, with the clan-company organisation and love of bionics that follows. I forget how many clan-companies there are, though.

 

The clan-companies appear to be a concept created from the Iron Hands' hatred of weakness. It's an intentionally fractured system so that the companies keep themselves apart. The Dragon's methodology does not work with a clan company structure. You can't really hammer an enemy with everything if you don't have authority over everything. You also can't make the order to TRAIN HARDER when you don't have that authority over everyone.

 

* Possibly make them cursed founding, with the permanent borderline-fury as the curse? Maybe hints at the use of World Eater geneseed rather than Iron Hands? (Before you jump down my throat about this, it's just an idea, and will never be stated outright even if I go ahead with it. The Steel Dragons are pretty close to how I'd make a theoretical loyalist WE successor anyhow, so it might be worth playing with if there's room.)

 

Go for it. Although, the Minotaurs may have beaten you to the punch. I would promote the idea of avoiding confirming any gene-seed if you follow this through though. It wouldn't really be a loss either since you draw from so many different chapter ideas: Berserkers/ Death Company (World Eaters/ Blood Angels), Pain Glove (Imperial Fists), Adeptus Mechanicus relations (Iron Hands), I could even push and say that the oriental world could be attributed to the White Scars :lol: .

 

Finally, orange.

[Commander S. Caesare]

I'd go with the green.

[legoss]

Ace, didn't you have an earlier version of the Dragons bouncing around on here many moons ago? The name keeps making me think I've seen it before.

[CKO]

When you say brutal efficiency are you saying they are very brutal or very efficient, I cannot imagine them being both if they are in a state of barely control aggressiveness. Maybe their desire to be efficient is so great that it puts them in this mind set that causes them to be brutal.

 

Homeworld is fine.

 

In the combat doctrine section why does their strategy lead to losses? If they are throwing everything at them it should lead to less casualities. Why do you want to add the death company to your chapter?

 

Everything else is good.

[Ace Debonair]

Damn guys, that's a lot to work with. :lol:

Keep it up!

 

Just remember that you need to make sure their tech level doesn't progress too far, or you have Communism :) Otherwise... yeah, China was cool. Three-Kingdoms era has a ton of inspiration.

 

I love the three kingdoms stuff (I play dynasty warriors too much not to), although I'm going to only borrow vaguely similar ideas from Chinese history. I might possibly steal and alter a few things from Japan as well, depending.

 

Do they get angry at allies for not being able to keep up?

On the rare occasion that allies are privy to the Dragon's plans before the battle, then probably.

 

Otherwise they make certain to deploy away from everyone else so they don't get in the way.

 

Blood Angels gene-seed? The Ancient Vikings saw the Berserker Rage as a gift from Odin. Maybe yours are the same way? Everyone aspire to attain the pure rage state when you are at the absolute peak of your strength? Invincible, unstoppable warriors? Emperor's gift to the Steel Dragons?

 

I actually intended that to reinforce the fact the Dragons' obessions with power and battlefield effectiveness are not entirely sane. :P

 

* The SD don't play nice with most other imperial forces, viewing almost everyone who requires the Dragons to come in and clean up their mess as too weak to do the job themselves.

Do they mock/beat the incompetent fools?

 

No, but they generally treat them with barely concealed dislike.

They're a bit more tolerant to other Astartes, but not enough to be all pally-pally.

 

Do they... incur allied casualties? What are their views on friendly fire/innocent non-combatants?

 

Let's see... innocents are a myth, there are only enemies and obstacles on the battlefield, and ayone stupid enough to get in the way of the Dragons' fire is going to get themselves burned.

 

What about other chapters that are as berserker mad as they are? Flesh Tearers for example?

Dunno, to be honest. They'd probably have grudging respect for equally battle-hungry or efficieny-driven astartes.

 

Tyranids and Orks. This Chapter NEEDS to fight Orks. Rage vs Rage in a bloody battle to the Ragey End.

 

Orks were my planned main enemy, actually. I'm just contemplating also turning them loose on the tyranids.

 

Eh... Traitor Geneseed is always tricky. Hint too much and its obvious and shot down. Hint too little and everyone is confused. Why not just have Iron Hands? You adopted the Clan Council and hatred of weakness? Besides, they can be just as brutal.

 

Well, it would take more work to make them possible WE successors.

As much as I'm not one to shy away from a challenge, and as much as I think rage-implant free World Eaters would make awesome loyalists, I might well just stick with Iron Hands geneseed.

 

Also, that's one vote for orange.

 

Smells like Death Company to me. I would adjust it so that it's just a battle thing, and avoid the messy responsibility altogether.

 

I didn't have death company in mind, to be honest. There won't be any 'die horus die' issuing from these lads. The idea is that they'll just reach a plateau of rage where it's very, very hard to calm back down. Obviously, being the caring, friendly chapter they are, the Steel Dragons will respond to such lack of discipline with a messy, bloody execution.

 

The latter could supersede the former in every way, shape, and form.

 

Very true. The metal > flesh thing is pretty much only one facet of the strength-hungry aspect I want in the Chapter.

 

I won't use the term power-hungry, because that implies they'd prefer political influence over a bigger gun, which just isn't true.

 

The clan-companies appear to be a concept created from the Iron Hands' hatred of weakness. It's an intentionally fractured system so that the companies keep themselves apart. The Dragon's methodology does not work with a clan company structure. You can't really hammer an enemy with everything if you don't have authority over everything. You also can't make the order to TRAIN HARDER when you don't have that authority over everyone.

 

So a more traditional codex-doctrine organisation actually plays more into the SD's hands, then?

 

Interesting point. I'm not sure how I'd justify a shift away from that particular inheritance of the Iron Hands line, though.

 

Go for it. Although, the Minotaurs may have beaten you to the punch. I would promote the idea of avoiding confirming any gene-seed if you follow this through though. It wouldn't really be a loss either since you draw from so many different chapter ideas: Berserkers/ Death Company (World Eaters/ Blood Angels), Pain Glove (Imperial Fists), Adeptus Mechanicus relations (Iron Hands), I could even push and say that the oriental world could be attributed to the White Scars :P .

 

Finally, orange.

 

See, my plans for using the WE geneseed were as follows:

 

* Cursed Founding chapter (needs a good curse, although being always angry, strength-obsessed and perilously close to insane is a good one in my books)

* Geneseed not looking like Iron Hands one on examination is put down to a curious mutation, although the geneseed itself is basically stable.

* Iron Hands (or a successor if anyone wants to volunteer one) are blatantly lied to about being the parent chapter and takes the SD under their wing with training cadre et al. Steel Dragons believe themselves Iron Hands successors.

* Incredible battlefield efficiency marred by permanent rage issues, antisocial nature and occasional bouts of insanity.

* Inquisitor/AdMech guy (Magos, is it?) responsible for the experiment bites his lip and hopes like hell the SD don't go all 'blood for the blood god' and totally flip out. (in a sidebar, maybe)

* Tyranids show up nearby and start raising hell, Dragons reciprocate with vigour. Geneseed question is all but forgotten in the ensuing mayhem.

 

Or I could just use Iron Hands Geneseed, since Manus and his lads are always under-represented despite being a unique and fun Chapter.

 

Also, that's two for Orange.

 

I'd go with the green.

 

Orange: 2

Green: 1

 

Ace, didn't you have an earlier version of the Dragons bouncing around on here many moons ago? The name keeps making me think I've seen it before.

I did, but it's ancient and not very good.

 

There's another chapter of the same name doing the rounds at the moment, I think it's on page 2 at the time of writing.

Completely different idea and direction for a chapter, but a neat one so I'm happy to share names with 'em.

 

When you say brutal efficiency are you saying they are very brutal or very efficient, I cannot imagine them being both if they are in a state of barely control aggressiveness. Maybe their desire to be efficient is so great that it puts them in this mind set that causes them to be brutal.

In the combat doctrine section why does their strategy lead to losses? If they are throwing everything at them it should lead to less casualities. Why do you want to add the death company to your chapter?

Yep, the desire to be battlefield-efficient makes them unrelentingly brutal. Every time something less-than-perfect happens, it makes them more angry.

 

I was going to have the losses as a result of friendly fire, but now you mention it, that's a really stupid idea. :no:

Not least because they're dedicated to battlefield efficiency, and therefore wouldn't use this strategy unless they were really good at it.

 

But I don't want the Death Company! :lol:

I want odd, isolated cases of a marine losing his mind and getting caught up in a depth of rage from which there is no return, but certainly not enough of them to organise into groups or to hijack a BA-exclusive trait.

 

Madmen aren't conducive to efficiency, hence the SD offing their insane brothers.

Which, given their nature, is a touch hypocritical.

 

 

Any more for any more?

All views, ideas, opinions and thoughts (be they positive or soul-crushingly negative) sought after and welcomed!

[Dosjetka]

Before I start, I must say that I hate you* for a single reason: I had the idea of a brutal Space Marine Chapter just last week and thought "Nah, I'll leave it for another time." :no:

 

Anyway, I'll read through this when my rage boils down (and when I find the time as well :lol:).

 

*(I don't really hate you, though when I read the first few sentences of your IA idea, I was indeed a bit... deflated)

 

Ludovic

[Ace Debonair]

Before I start, I must say that I hate you* for a single reason: I had the idea of a brutal Space Marine Chapter just last week and thought "Nah, I'll leave it for another time." :no:

 

Anyway, I'll read through this when my rage boils down (and when I find the time as well :)).

 

*(I don't really hate you, though when I read the first few sentences of your IA idea, I was indeed a bit... deflated)

 

Ludovic

But I had this idea two years ago! :lol:

 

Unless your idea was about brutal, ancient-china-inspired, semi-insane Iron Hands successors with a penchant for over-the-top-violence, I wouldn't worry about the two being too similar. :lol:

[Reyner]

I was going to make an Iron Hands successor called the wait for it... Steel Talons so if you like they can be the duped Chapter if you go for the WE geneseed (which sounds awesome :D)

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads...9_6562_4930.jpg this was going to be my ST scheme so I vote Orange too. ^_^

Edited October 11, 2011 by Reyner

[Lysimachus]

Just a very quick thought, Ace, if you decide going with WE geneseed is getting too complicated: as IH successors they love their bionic stuff anyway, why not just have similar aggression enhancing implants to the original WE?

 

Note that I'm not suggesting that they'd somehow found, liked, and copied the actual WE implants. Not at all. Honestly. That would be very bad and borderline heretical... ^_^

Edited October 11, 2011 by Strike Captain Lysimachus

[Ace Debonair]

I was going to make an Iron Hands successor called the wait for it... Steel Talons so if you like they can be the duped Chapter if you go for the WE geneseed (which sounds awesome )

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads...9_6562_4930.jpg this was going to be my ST scheme so I vote Orange too. :P

 

And so it all begins to fall into place. ^_^

What's your Chapter like, personality wise? Are they pretty much like the Iron hands, or are there any divergences I ought to know about?

 

EDIT:

I'm taken aback by the overwhelming number of votes for the orange scheme. I honestly thought it would be a clean-sweep for the green one!

All in all, I might wind up trying another few riffs on the theme of orange, grey and dark brown for a later post.

 

EDIT EDIT:

 

Gah, ninja'd by Lysimachus!

 

Just a very quick thought, Ace, if you decide going with WE geneseed is getting too complicated: as IH successors they love their bionic stuff anyway, why not just have similar aggression enhancing implants to the original WE?

 

Note that I'm not suggesting that they'd somehow found, liked, and copied the actual WE implants. Not at all. Honestly. That would be very bad and borderline heretical... :P

 

Oh gosh. That bad borderline thing you're honestly not suggesting at all could be a rather neat twist. :D

I'm not sure exactly what the benefits of using said implants are, though. There'd have to be some, right?

Edited October 11, 2011 by Ace Debonair

[Reyner]

Hehe I haven't got that far along they were a brain fart - they are very Iron Hands like (hate weakness, the usual) have autonomous companies (which seems to be popping up alot recently :P). I'm not 100% on IH battle tactics but my marines shoot everything that moves ride along in tanks and have a bit of a dreadnought fetish... Like the Aurora Chapter with all their tanks?

 

I'll have a proper think about them throughout the week and do my best to help out :)

 

My Steel Talons will pretty much be the polar opposite of my Ghost Dragons, their mindset would be more like: "If you are too weak to defend your own home I'm doing bugger all to help you, other than a bolt round to your cowardly ass".

Edited October 11, 2011 by Reyner

[Ace Debonair]

Hehe I haven't got that far along they were a brain fart - they are very Iron Hands like (hate weakness, the usual) have autonomous companies (which seems to be popping up alot recently :P). I'm not 100% on IH battle tactics but my marines shoot everything that moves ride along in tanks and have a bit of a dreadnought fetish... Like the Aurora Chapter with all their tanks?

 

I'll have a proper think about them throughout the week and do my best to help out :P

 

My Steel Talons will pretty much be the polar opposite of my Ghost Dragons, their mindset would be more like: "If you are too weak to defend your own home I'm doing bugger all to help you, other than a bolt round to your cowardly ass".

 

Cold, calculating and utterly ruthless, then?

Sounds good!

 

So long as they wouldn't get too concerned about the Dragons' levels of brutality, happy days.

 

Also, if you want to name a Captain to lead the training cadre, that'll save me inventing one that fits within your Chapter's naming conventions. :)

[Reyner]

An Iron Hands successor who gets concerned about brutality?? What madness is this??

 

I'll have a think of a Captain for you - would you want to keep him or post in back in a box when done with? :)

[Ace Debonair]

An Iron Hands successor who gets concerned about brutality?? What madness is this??

 

I'll have a think of a Captain for you - would you want to keep him or post in back in a box when done with? :P

Hey, it never hurts to make absolutely certain. :)

 

As for the comings and goings of the training Cadre, I'd prefer to keep the Captain, but if you absolutely have to have him back, then it's your call. :P

[Reyner]

That's fine, thinking of having a Clan Structure so when the Captain leaves to train your guys the Clan simply elects another leader who the old Captain could challenge if he ever returns. But as you want to keep him it's all good :) could be interesting if the Clan comes across your guys years down the line.

 

Just using a Latin name generator at the moment and it came up with: Hadrian Dalenregius, how does that sound? My marines will all likely have latin names I think (I find them easier to make up :P)

[Ace Debonair]

Captain Dalenregius of the Steel Talons [NAME] Clan, eh?

Excellent.

 

EDIT:

Duh, Ace. Take that question out, it's answered in the post above yours.

 

 

 

After re-reading the Octaguide, I had a good think to myself about this Cursed Founding business.

The point is that the Cursed Founding was effectively trying to improve space marines, but it basically all eventually backfired. So, while the backfire can easily take care of itself (borderline insanity and dangerous obsessions with strength/military effectiveness is a hell of a backfire!) there's got to be some kind of notable improvement, too.

 

In this case, I don't really know what the improvement could be. Basically, I'm open to suggestions, if anyone has any.

 

The Cursed Founding idea sort of works both with and without the World Eater geneseed, too. I'm still leaning towards trying to include the WE geneseed, just to see if I can pull it off. :D

Don't worry, I'll keep it subtle, and I can always drop it if it becomes a problem.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Ace Debonair

[Octavulg]

With the Steel Dragons, I want to create a Chapter who are a byword for brutal efficiency, and don't really play nice with anybody. (except maybe the admech - those tanks don't grow on trees!)

 

They're also going to be borderline insane in many cases, and in a permanent state of barely-controlled agressiveness.

 

Sounds fun!

 

* Iron Hands successors, with the clan-company organisation and love of bionics that follows. I forget how many clan-companies there are, though.

 

Ten, IIRC. However, I would wonder why the clan company organization would necessarily persist. Why not have a particular clan company lead the new chapter (the clans could battle it out to see who did)?

 

* On good terms with the AdMech though, allowing them to actually survive being hostile to nearly everyone else. The Imperium is not a good place to have no friends!

 

Why? The Adeptus Mechanicus are weak. Always unlocking secrets man was not meant to know, getting eaten by Nids, and puttering about with tech when they could be killing things.

 

* Possibly make them cursed founding, with the permanent borderline-fury as the curse? Maybe hints at the use of World Eater geneseed rather than Iron Hands? (Before you jump down my throat about this, it's just an idea, and will never be stated outright even if I go ahead with it. The Steel Dragons are pretty close to how I'd make a theoretical loyalist WE successor anyhow, so it might be worth playing with if there's room.)

 

Leave it, IMO. Cursed Founding chapters are all about the curse. Plus, as you say, what would be the benefit that was intended?

 

Looks interesting. As a note, I'd seriously recommend working the "mights" into the rest of the content. It's a lot more coherent that way.

[Ace Debonair]

With the Steel Dragons, I want to create a Chapter who are a byword for brutal efficiency, and don't really play nice with anybody. (except maybe the admech - those tanks don't grow on trees!)

 

They're also going to be borderline insane in many cases, and in a permanent state of barely-controlled agressiveness.

 

Sounds fun!

I know, right?

I bet it winds up giving me headaches aplenty before the first draft though. :lol:

 

Ten, IIRC. However, I would wonder why the clan company organization would necessarily persist. Why not have a particular clan company lead the new chapter (the clans could battle it out to see who did)?

 

That could work, except I'm hijacking one of Reyner's captains for the training cadre, and don't really want him to lose power before he pops his clogs.

Although I suppose he could just win the combat (more experienced and skilled) and take charge through strength.

Or go back to Reyner's chapter, actually, leaving the Dragons to settle the leadership question via trial by combat.

 

* On good terms with the AdMech though, allowing them to actually survive being hostile to nearly everyone else. The Imperium is not a good place to have no friends!

 

Why? The Adeptus Mechanicus are weak. Always unlocking secrets man was not meant to know, getting eaten by Nids, and puttering about with tech when they could be killing things.

 

The thing with the AdMech is that they have all the lovely weapons and armour that the SD need, and enough political clout to talk an inquisitor or two into looking slightly more kindly on the otherwise disliked Steel Dragons.

 

 

* Possibly make them cursed founding, with the permanent borderline-fury as the curse? Maybe hints at the use of World Eater geneseed rather than Iron Hands? (Before you jump down my throat about this, it's just an idea, and will never be stated outright even if I go ahead with it. The Steel Dragons are pretty close to how I'd make a theoretical loyalist WE successor anyhow, so it might be worth playing with if there's room.)

 

Leave it, IMO. Cursed Founding chapters are all about the curse. Plus, as you say, what would be the benefit that was intended?

 

 

The only problem with discarding the Cursed Founding stuff is that it does realistically kill the chances of having a bash at a crazy loyalists-with-traitor-geneseed idea.

I do enjoy a good writing challenge, even if my record with them is less than stellar. :lol:

 

On the other hand, if I go with the 'a-Chapter-decieved' route and have someone try to fob the WE geneseed off as mutated Iron Hands geneseed, I suppose in theory that could happen in any founding.

Like I said, I'd not state it outright in the IA, but I'd like to have a go at something nice and subtle like that.

 

 

Looks interesting. As a note, I'd seriously recommend working the "mights" into the rest of the content. It's a lot more coherent that way.

 

I'm sure this makes perfect sense, but yet somehow you've lost me. :sweat:

My poor brain might have melted from trying to reconcile all my ideas properly.

 

 

EDIT:

Ugh. Damnit Ace, finish your sentences properly.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Ace Debonair

[Ace Debonair]

OK then.

 

I've been doing some thinking, and I'm unable to decide whether or not to have the Steel Dragons as blatant World Eater successors.

 

As a result, I have two potential origin sections.

 

 

 

Origins 1:

* 20th Founding. Sent to fight Orks in the galactic east.

 

* Led by former Captain Dalenregius of the Steel Talons, who seeks to mold his new brothers in his image as true sons of Manus and masters of war.

 

* Early conflicts show the new Chapter to be singularly ferocious, almost frenzied in battle and utterly without mercy.

 

* Dalenregius gets little time to reflect on the overtly vicious nature of his new kin, however, as he arrives at the [NAME] sector, which is up to the neck in Orks.

 

 

OR, Origins 2:

* About a year or so before the 21st founding, [RANKED ADMECH GUY] Valyn and his explorator fleet find a fragment of ancient, heresy-era technology. Part of the data stored on that technology tells of the early days of the World Eater Legion, and how before Angron had the rage-devices all installed, they were ranked amongst the best and greatest soldiers the Imperium has ever seen.

 

* Hmm, says [RANKED ADMECH GUY] Valyn to himself. Interesting stuff. A plan begins to formulate in Valyn's mind.

 

* When the 21st Founding is declared, [RANKED ADMECH GUY] Valyn pilgrimages to Mars and appeals to his bretheren and some inquisitors to make use of the WE geneseed. It's the cursed founding, so the arguments he put forth can be lost to history :P , but he manages to convince enough [RANKED ADMECH GUYS] and anyone else required that his theory deserves a chance to become practice.

 

* Knowing that any right-minded Astartes would sooner punch Angron's sons in the face than treat them as kindred, Valyn tells porkies to the Steel Talons, sons of Ferrus Manus, telling them they've been chosen to sire a successor. Captain Dalenregius of the Draco Clan-Company gets put in charge, and raises his new brothers as stalwart warriors in his own image. The new Chapter, the Steel Dragons, are dispatched to the south edges of the Eastern Fringe, to the [NAME] sector.

 

 

History:

* The Steel Dragons take the fight to the Orks of the [NAME] sector, fighting the greenskin's ferocity with their own vicious nature and agressive tactics. Dalenregius steers them from fighting with outright frenzy to a focus on total efficiency.

 

* Dalenregius eventually dies fighting the Orks, but his ideals of 'battlefield efficiency' are burned into the Chapter. They throw themselves into fights not with reckless rage, but in a series of perfectly planned and orchestrated rapid attacks, each striving to be the most brutal and swift. Their tactics work well against the disorganized Greenskins, and though the sector still suffers from Ork attacks, it is once again considered an Imperial sector.

 

* The SD find Imperial Guard a nuisance - their practices of war are sloppy and haphazard at best. Even other Astartes for all their skill, seem complacent in their strength, rather than pushing themselves as the 'Dragons do.

 

* The Dragons generally refuse aid, prosecuting their wars alone and brusquely instructing others to stay out of their way when forced into situational alliances.

 

Beliefs:

* The Steel Dragons utterly hate any form of weakness, and seek to perfect the art of war. Even though they are masters of their way of warfare, the Dragons keep pushing themselves to be better - to strike harder, to shoot with more precision.

 

* Dragons are prone to punishing themselves for mistakes, be they real or only in the individual's mind. Many marines bear the scars of not only a thousand battles, but a thousand self-inflicted beatings.

 

* Like their Iron Hands ancestors ( ;) ) they are keen on mechanical replacements, and their techmarines are kept busy either modifying or repairing bionic limbs in the name of improved effectiveness.

 

* They venerate The Emperor and Ferrus Manus as great men who brooked no excuses, no failures. Nothing less than utter perfection of warfare is fitting tribute to their memories.

 

Combat Doctrine:

* Blitzkrieg doctrines are the Chapter's primary means of combat. Hitting the enemy with, quite literally, everything in one fell swoop. Artillery, infantry, tanks, thunderhawks - everything.

 

* Battlefield efficiency is the goal of the Chapter; every act, be it firing on an enemy position with a Thunderfire Cannon, or severing the head from an ork with a chainsword, must be carried out to the fullest of the Marine's ability.

 

*Sidebar about the rare, isolated cases of berserker-ism, where the afflicted marine is put down after the combat's conclusion. Madmen are ill-conducive to battlefield efficiency, and gaet no forgiveness from their brothers.

 

Homeworld:

 

* The Steel Dragons recruit primarily from Kudao. Kudao is a world dominated by five vast empires, eternally feuding over land and honour.

 

* War is a constant. Obviously. Even children are drafted into the fights. Also obviously.

 

* The Kudao are a very agressive people, just short of hostile to anyone not of their clan, and moreso to offworlders. Nevertheless, they make ideal recruits for the Steel Dragons, who aren't exactly best pals with, well, anyone.

 

Organisation:

* Organised into ten clan companies, like their parent chapter.

 

* Each clan takes in it's own recruits.

 

* Terminator armour is rare in the Chapter, and very few full squads are fielded.

 

* By contrast, the Chapter's armoury is home to a goodly number of tanks.

 

* Often, Clan-Companies will co-exist to bring yet more force and firepower to a battlefield.

 

Geneseed:

* Iron Hands stock, but mutated almost beyond recognition. Visits from members of the AdMech and Inquisition are suprisingly commonplace, presumably to make sure the geneseed still functions correctly, or occasionally to censure particularly ruthless actions in combat.

 

* Despite mutations, geneseed is stable. Some believe, though, that the mutations are responsible for the berserker blight that sometimes befalls battle brothers in the wake of a combat.

 

*IF Option 1 is used for origins, Sidebar about the true origin of the Chapter's geneseed?

 

 

 

 

It's a conundrum, for sure.

I really can't decide if it would be better to leave out any overt mention of the World Eaters, or to have a bash at the more blatant approach. :)

 

EDIT:

Left off the last bit.

 

All opinions, thoughts, mockery, demolition of my ideas down into the finest dust, musings and alternative ideas welcomed enthusiastically.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Ace Debonair

[Dosjetka]

I actually much prefer Origins 2 to Origins 1, even though it'll be harder to make it convincing for the casual fluff-nut (though I'm sure you'll be able to do that without too much hassle :sick:).

 

Really looking good :angry:

 

Ludovic