IA: Steel Dragons

[NightrawenII]

Hell-o here...

 

To be honest, I don't like neither of the Origins. Both versions look to me too much of cookie cutter. Sorry. ;)

 

Regardless, the Gene-seed section will require more thoughts. These guys are obsessed with efficiency and perfection, so the mutation of gene-seed seems to be misplaced.

 

 

Cheers, NightrawenII.

[Ecritter]

I'm back ... just for you.

 

I say stick with option 2. Just means a bit more creative writing on your part.

 

I don't really see the Imperial China bit in your IA. I mean I can see it for the Homeworld, but nothing of it in the Chapter itself.

 

I look forward to seeing more.

[Reyner]

Option 2 looks best - more interesting for all parties (especially if the rest of the Steel Talons find out).

[Octavulg]

I'd still say keep it simple. The chapter's nature isn't one that lends itself to a Curse, IMO.

 

Also, what we know about the Cursed Founding suggests training cadres weren't used.

[Donkey Kong]

I agree with NightrawenII. Neither Origin looks right. Furthermore, Origin 2 is terrible. Traitor gene-seed is inherently taboo, don't be open about it. Hide it. Hint at it. Never, ever say it.

 

Ferrus lost his head. From what I understand, Iron Hands don't like Ferrus Manus. Their Clan Company structure is a result of a sort of falling out following his death.

 

Too many elements seem to be taken directly from the Iron Hands. It's unnecessary and feels forced, for example the Termintor shortage.

 

While the Chapter's nature may not lend itself to a curse, view it in the same tragic light of the Blood Angels and Emperor's Children. A curse is a defining characteristic, but it's a flaw. Sometime's it's fatal, but sometimes it's there to prove your mettle (pun).

[Brother Augustine]

As I understood it, and I could be wrong, the Iron Hands clan Companies were instituted by Ferrus Manus. Each Company recruits from one of the Clans of Medusa and such, which were never united because Ferrus believed that the inherent rivalry between the Clans would force them to become stronger to keep their neighbors from out doing them. This kind of attitude has carried over into the actual Chapter as a result. Again, I could be wrong but this is just how I understood it.

 

As for the IA in question,

 

As long as you write it well I think you can make either origin work, but I like the WE one better. :pinch:

I would also like to see how the whole 5 Kingdoms thing plays into the actual Chapter.

All in all So far So good! Keep up the good work sir!

Edited November 7, 2011 by Brother Augustine

[Aqui]

As far as I know the WE are only insane because of Angron's insistence that everyone should have the aggression implant - no exceptions than their Geneseed. As a few have already pointed out, it would be a big sticking point for the Steel Dragons to have WE geneseed in any circumstances - the Traitor Legions Geneseed is timelocked, verboten to anyone using at all, ever.

 

However, if you want a different wayof getting them to have Iron Hand and World Eater traits, perhaps this might work (feel free to use any part, all or none of the following :D)

 

On a battlefield/Research station other location, an Iron Father finds a small device of unknown function (although it is Blatantly of IoM origin) They take it back to their homeworld and starts having a look at it to see what it is capable of. With the predilection of moving further and further towards cyborg heaven and away from the flesh, the Iron Father experiments with the device on himself. He becomes unstoppable in combat and at first the side effects of berzerker rage etc is not seen. The rest of the Chapter sees the benefit of such a device and all thereby use it themselves. It becomes standard practice to install the device in themselves after the other SM implants. By this time, rumours of them being bonkers on the battlefield start to circulate, but are denied by the SD. Thinking that other Chapters, the IG are simply "weak" the SD become far more antisocial and contemptuous of them. They start operating alone, or are reluctant to fight with others.

[Ace Debonair]

Sorry for the lack of activity of late.

You guys have given me plenty to mull over, that's for sure!

 

Once I get time, I'll sit down and work out an improved outline for these chaps.

[Ace Debonair]

OK. Here we go!

 

To be honest, I don't like neither of the Origins. Both versions look to me too much of cookie cutter. Sorry. :sweat:

Fair enough. I can work on that, I guess.

 

Regardless, the Gene-seed section will require more thoughts. These guys are obsessed with efficiency and perfection, so the mutation of gene-seed seems to be misplaced.

Actually, the point was that they only think it's Iron Hands geneseed. It's actually mutation-free World Eater geneseed, but since they believe themselves to be IH successors, the logical conclusion is that it's mutated since it doesn't look like the original IH geneseed.

 

It'll make more sense written up, if I don't drop it altogether.

 

I don't really see the Imperial China bit in your IA. I mean I can see it for the Homeworld, but nothing of it in the Chapter itself.

 

I prefer my influences subtle, for the large part. I remember people urging me to make the Stonebound 'more dwarf-y'! :lol:

It'll be more in the Chapter's names (other than Dalenregius) which will be a blend of Chinese and Japanese names that I like the sound of.

 

I'm also considering a Sun-Tzu-esque former chapter master who penned an addition for the codex, detailing what aspects of the Dragons' favourite lightning-strike-attacks worked well and what steps could be taken to improve it. He'll be sidebar material, though, since I also want him to be long-dead.

 

 

EDIT: Damn you typos. Damn you!

 

I'd still say keep it simple. The chapter's nature isn't one that lends itself to a Curse, IMO.

 

Also, what we know about the Cursed Founding suggests training cadres weren't used.

 

On balance, you're right.

Still, I had to follow that train of thought or else I'd always wonder. Which in turn would mean I'd invarbialy try to jam it in once the IA was up and running.

 

In other words, it's better for me to get all my silly ideas out of the way now. :lol:

 

Furthermore, Origin 2 is terrible. Traitor gene-seed is inherently taboo, don't be open about it. Hide it. Hint at it. Never, ever say it.

 

It could have been worse, I'm sure.

However, spending less time justifying the geneseed and more time on the Chapter proper can only be a good thing.

 

 

Ferrus lost his head. From what I understand, Iron Hands don't like Ferrus Manus. Their Clan Company structure is a result of a sort of falling out following his death.

 

I've never heard either of those statements before now. :huh:

If they didn't like him, why do they follow in his ideals, anyway? Why not change their name away from the one he gave them, too?

 

Too many elements seem to be taken directly from the Iron Hands. It's unnecessary and feels forced, for example the Termintor shortage.

...I thought they had MORE terminators. Maybe I'm thinking of Dreadnoughts...? Either way, point made and consider it dropped.

 

While the Chapter's nature may not lend itself to a curse, view it in the same tragic light of the Blood Angels and Emperor's Children. A curse is a defining characteristic, but it's a flaw. Sometime's it's fatal, but sometimes it's there to prove your mettle (pun).

 

I think the Chapter will look at their 'berserker curse' mostly as a nuisance. It'll annoy the hell out of them, but since it's a rare occurence it doesn't bother them.

 

As I understood it, and I could be wrong, the Iron Hands clan Companies were instituted by Ferrus Manus. Each Company recruits from one of the Clans of Medusa and such, which were never united because Ferrus believed that the inherent rivalry between the Clans would force them to become stronger to keep their neighbors from out doing them. This kind of attitude has carried over into the actual Chapter as a result. Again, I could be wrong but this is just how I understood it.

 

And Augustine saves me the hassle of typing what I thought the deal was with the Clan-Companies.

Does anyone know for sure if this is the case, or am I barking up the wrong tree again?

 

As long as you write it well I think you can make either origin work, but I like the WE one better.

 

That opening's had a lot of support. I'm quite surprised!

I've decided, though, that I'm better off spending less time justifying gene-seed choice and more time exploring and detailing the Chapter. Hence, option 1 will be winning out in my new outline.

 

As far as I know the WE are only insane because of Angron's insistence that everyone should have the aggression implant - no exceptions than their Geneseed. As a few have already pointed out, it would be a big sticking point for the Steel Dragons to have WE geneseed in any circumstances - the Traitor Legions Geneseed is timelocked, verboten to anyone using at all, ever.

 

This was my whole point really. The World Eater geneseed should theoretically work just fine provided nobody sticks an 'angry button' in the brain of the recipient.

But, 40k being 40k, the idea of using WE geneseed actually producing something perilously close to the regular World Eaters instead of a 'pure' version is just too deliciously grimdark to pass up.

 

In a nutshell, it should work fine, but in this case it doesn't. Vive la 40k. :D

 

I'll shroud the whole geneseed thing in the best secrecy ever, which is to say; I'm not really mentioning it. Except maybe a few heavy-handed hints at the end.

 

However, if you want a different wayof getting them to have Iron Hand and World Eater traits, perhaps this might work (feel free to use any part, all or none of the following ^_^)

Strike Captain Lysimachus beat you to that one, a page ago. ^_^

 

It's a great idea, but not really the direction I want to go. Feel free to steal your idea back for yourself though - could be a lot of fun!

 

 

 

 

I'll sit down and have a bash at a new outline later on, time willing.

Thanks for all the C&C so far, and the putting up with my random, meandering ideas. :P

Edited November 10, 2011 by Ace Debonair

[Donkey Kong]

It could have been worse, I'm sure.

However, spending less time justifying the geneseed and more time on the Chapter proper can only be a good thing.

 

I insist that you should not say it outright. Hiding it in plain sight would work just as well, if not better. Hint, poke, prod, and then drop it. It's a taboo. If the chapter itself does not know, we should not know for sure either.

 

I'll shroud the whole geneseed thing in the best secrecy ever, which is to say; I'm not really mentioning it. Except maybe a few heavy-handed hints at the end.

 

:sweat:

 

I've never heard either of those statements before now. :lol:

If they didn't like him, why do they follow in his ideals, anyway? Why not change their name away from the one he gave them, too?

 

Having read through Lexicanum, and flipped back through Fulgrim I concede to Brother Augustine. As justification, that would be how I would change 40k. I'd rather keep away from using that logic, if only to save myself from my hypocrisy. After all, I hate when Philip Sibbering uses that logic.

 

...I thought they had MORE terminators. Maybe I'm thinking of Dreadnoughts...? Either way, point made and consider it dropped.

 

Hearsay once dictated that they didn't have either (Sergeants wore TDA, there were no TDA squads, and there were something like 8 dreadnoughts). While the Terminator one is still consistent, hence why people believe the Space Wolf codex can be made to represent a, quote-on-quote, "fluffy" Iron Hands force, the introduction of the Master of the Forge as the supposed "Iron Hands Special Character" flipped the Dreadnought logic on its head.

[Ace Debonair]

It could have been worse, I'm sure.

However, spending less time justifying the geneseed and more time on the Chapter proper can only be a good thing.

 

I insist that you should not say it outright. Hiding it in plain sight would work just as well, if not better. Hint, poke, prod, and then drop it. It's a taboo. If the chapter itself does not know, we should not know for sure either.

 

One thing I am considering is some very heavy-handed hints in a sidebar, right at the end. Possibly from the POV of an AdMech guy there to personally check on their geneseed stock because of some malicious rumours, then dismiss the whole 'their geneseed is not what it seems' idea as absurd.

 

I don't know if that'll go in or not yet, it's just an idea I'm playing with.

I mean, secret geneseed isn't the focus of the IA, nor should it be the key to enjoying it. But it could make a nice bonus, and it's just a question of how eay-to-get that bonus should be.

 

I've never heard either of those statements before now. :D

If they didn't like him, why do they follow in his ideals, anyway? Why not change their name away from the one he gave them, too?

 

Having read through Lexicanum, and flipped back through Fulgrim I concede to Brother Augustine. As justification, that would be how I would change 40k. I'd rather keep away from using that logic, if only to save myself from my hypocrisy. After all, I hate when Philip Sibbering uses that logic.

 

It would be a novel twist, for sure.

But since I think Manus is under-rated I'm happy enough having the Dragons respect the guy. ;)

 

...I thought they had MORE terminators. Maybe I'm thinking of Dreadnoughts...? Either way, point made and consider it dropped.

Hearsay once dictated that they didn't have either (Sergeants wore TDA, there were no TDA squads, and there were something like 8 dreadnoughts). While the Terminator one is still consistent, hence why people believe the Space Wolf codex can be made to represent a, quote-on-quote, "fluffy" Iron Hands force, the introduction of the Master of the Forge as the supposed "Iron Hands Special Character" flipped the Dreadnought logic on its head.

 

Oh. I'm wrong on both counts there, then.

Way to do the research, Ace.

 

Either way, consider their dreadnought/terminator numbers cut out of the outline, and thus presumably closer to regular codex chapter standards.

[Ecritter]

I believe I was one of the "make them more Dwarfy" people :D

[Heru]

The World Eater geneseed should theoretically work just fine provided nobody sticks an 'angry button' in the brain of the recipient.

But, 40k being 40k, the idea of using WE geneseed actually producing something perilously close to the regular World Eaters instead of a 'pure' version is just too deliciously grimdark to pass up.

:cough: Minotaurs :cough:

[Ace Debonair]

The World Eater geneseed should theoretically work just fine provided nobody sticks an 'angry button' in the brain of the recipient.

But, 40k being 40k, the idea of using WE geneseed actually producing something perilously close to the regular World Eaters instead of a 'pure' version is just too deliciously grimdark to pass up.

:cough: Minotaurs :cough:

I'll trade you a throat sweet for an explanation. ;)

[Heru]

The World Eater geneseed should theoretically work just fine provided nobody sticks an 'angry button' in the brain of the recipient.

But, 40k being 40k, the idea of using WE geneseed actually producing something perilously close to the regular World Eaters instead of a 'pure' version is just too deliciously grimdark to pass up.

:cough: Minotaurs :cough:

I'll trade you a throat sweet for an explanation. <_<

The Minotaurs are a 21st Founding Chapter that is highly suspected to be of World Eaters geneseed. Before they "maybe" became the "attack dogs" of the High Lords they were a brutal barely controllable Chapter. Even under the High Lords they are still extremely brutal, if somewhat more directed and tempered.

 

"If" they are indeed of World Eater geneseed, it would show that the head implants only made the innate aggressiveness of the World Eaters worse, it didn't create it.

 

(Read all "conjecture" as true when it comes to GW, and there isn't multiple alternatives).

Edited November 10, 2011 by Heru Talon

[Ace Debonair]

The Minotaurs are a 21st Founding Chapter that is highly suspected to be of World Eaters geneseed. Before they "maybe" became the "attack dogs" of the High Lords they were a brutal barely controllable Chapter. Even under the High Lords they are still extremely brutal, if somewhat more directed and tempered.

 

"If" they are indeed of World Eater geneseed, it would show that the head implants only made the innate aggressiveness of the World Eaters worse, it didn't create it.

 

(Read all "conjecture" as true when it comes to GW, and there isn't multiple alternatives).

 

Well, that's profoundly annoying. It seems my idea's been stolen before I even had it. <_<

 

Excuse me for a moment, I'm just going outside so I can swear very loudly and at considerable length, and maybe in-between curses come up with a few extra ways to make the Dragon's different from the Minotaurs.

 

Oh, and your throat sweet is on it's way. Thanks Heru.

[Donkey Kong]

OhmigawdAceIalreadysaidthatwhydon'tyoueverlistentomethefirsttimearoundarghhhh.

 

The World Eater geneseed should theoretically work just fine provided nobody sticks an 'angry button' in the brain of the recipient.

But, 40k being 40k, the idea of using WE geneseed actually producing something perilously close to the regular World Eaters instead of a 'pure' version is just too deliciously grimdark to pass up.

:cough: Minotaurs :cough:

 

The Minotaurs are a 21st Founding Chapter that is highly suspected to be of World Eaters geneseed. Before they "maybe" became the "attack dogs" of the High Lords they were a brutal barely controllable Chapter. Even under the High Lords they are still extremely brutal, if somewhat more directed and tempered.

 

"If" they are indeed of World Eater geneseed, it would show that the head implants only made the innate aggressiveness of the World Eaters worse, it didn't create it.

 

(Read all "conjecture" as true when it comes to GW, and there isn't multiple alternatives).

 

Well, that's profoundly annoying. It seems my idea's been stolen before I even had it. :wallbash:

 

Excuse me for a moment, I'm just going outside so I can swear very loudly and at considerable length, and maybe in-between curses come up with a few extra ways to make the Dragon's different from the Minotaurs.

 

Oh, and your throat sweet is on it's way. Thanks Heru.

 

* Possibly make them cursed founding, with the permanent borderline-fury as the curse? Maybe hints at the use of World Eater geneseed rather than Iron Hands? (Before you jump down my throat about this, it's just an idea, and will never be stated outright even if I go ahead with it. The Steel Dragons are pretty close to how I'd make a theoretical loyalist WE successor anyhow, so it might be worth playing with if there's room.)

 

Go for it. Although, the Minotaurs may have beaten you to the punch. I would promote the idea of avoiding confirming any gene-seed if you follow this through though. It wouldn't really be a loss either since you draw from so many different chapter ideas: Berserkers/ Death Company (World Eaters/ Blood Angels), Pain Glove (Imperial Fists), Adeptus Mechanicus relations (Iron Hands), I could even push and say that the oriental world could be attributed to the White Scars ;) .

[NightrawenII]

Well, that's profoundly annoying. It seems my idea's been stolen before I even had it. :D

I feel your pain brother.

After hearing snipets and rumours about both Minotaurs and Space Sharks, I have had to concede a defeat and return to the drawing board. :(

[Ace Debonair]

OhmigawdAceIalreadysaidthatwhydon'tyoueverlistentomethefirsttimearoundarghhhh.

The blood angels have the curse of the black rage, I have the curse of completely missing vital snippets of information. :D

 

Check any of my IAs and you'll see someone point something important out and me completely fail to pick up on it.

That, and typos, are the only consistent features of my work. :sweat:

 

Well, that's profoundly annoying. It seems my idea's been stolen before I even had it. :wacko:

I feel your pain brother.

After hearing snipets and rumours about both Minotaurs and Space Sharks, I have had to concede a defeat and return to the drawing board. :(

I spend so much time at the drawing board I can apply for citizenship. :lol:

 

 

-=-=

 

After looking up the Minotaurs, I have to say I think the Steel Dragons are actually different enough, provided I handle them carefully.

 

That is to say, I'll make the point that the cases of actual berserker-ism are isloated incidents that seldom involve more than one marine and are heavily punished. (As in punished with death - doesn't get much harsher than that! :P )

 

Also, I'll probably drop the 'hit foes with two companies' stuff, and maybe add something about how the Steel Dragons that are best able to keep their cool in battle are most often the ones that wind up as captains.

 

The Minotaurs also have their 'mysteriously vanished for a while' and 'probably working directly for the HLoT' storylines that the Steel Dragons don't have.

 

Does that sound different enough to you guys, or do I need something else?

Edited November 15, 2011 by Ace Debonair

[Aqui]

Does that sound different enough to you guys, or do I need something else?

 

Well, there's always room for a "Berzerker" style Chapter :D and there's plenty of ways to make them different :sweat:

[Reyner]

As Aquilanus said above there are plenty of ways to make them different, having not read IA10 much (other than the character section) I'll go out on a limb and say the Minotaurs probably have a bit of Greek in them (don't flay me it's a hunch! Drop that flail!) whereas the Steel Dragons will be aiming at the 5 Kingdoms culture. Just work that in a bit more and dupe my poor Captain Hadrian into leading what he thinks are good ol' Iron Hands :P

 

Just a couple of ideas:

• Maybe have newer marines suffer more from berserk rages, they haven't learned to control their bloodlust
  
• Or go the other way, the older a marine is the more angry he gets
  
• The Steel Dragons could disappear for a while exterminating Xenos beyond the Imperium's borders
  
• (Maybe I'll start working on my IA soon :) )
  

Edited November 15, 2011 by Reyner