calgar101 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Bought this at Games Day and finished it a few days later.. I must say this was a great read and awesome HH novel. It reveals quite a few new bits of information and throws up many questions! One shocking revelation is that The Emperor knows he is going to die! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Traben Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I finished reading it yesterday... was a very good read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2898486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 It was awesome to see the astartes humbled, I wonder how that plot line will continue though? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2898529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astinon Dras Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I've seen an issue raised elsewhere with the timeline in the novel. Magnus' message gets to Terra after the astropaths have received word of Horus' Betrayal and the Dropsite Massacre. And the Space Wolves subsequently dispatched. However, in GiF or FG, Horus mentions that he has already taken care of Magnus by giving some hardline instructions to Russ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2899104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 It also reveals much about the nature of the Emperor. He actually states: "The problem with being omnipotent is you can't be all knowing and all powerful at the same time." Very insightful and explains much of why the Heresy went on beyond his control. And then: There is also a moment during his regicide game with Kai when he suggests sometimes you have to make sacrifices for a longer plan to work out. I took this to potentially mean 2 things. The first and most obvious is he was talking about defeating Horus. The second I felt hinted towards was the stagnation of the Imperium is all part of the plan. Of course the 2nd possibility was just an impression I got at the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2905009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astinon Dras Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 The sacrifice would be his own and that of Sanguinius. Not to mention his remaining loyal sons having to suffer the inevitable mistrust etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2905018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikt208 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 What I found really interesting was the was the Emperor simply discarded a warrior as great as Arik Taranis, it showed just how ruthless he truly his (a glimpse of which we have seen in Legion and The Last Church). I wonder if after the great crusade the Emperor would have done the same to some of the astartes legions. Once the conquest was over, or at least mostly done he would need legions who could rule, protect, and set a shining example for the Imperium. I reckon he would have axed The World Eaters, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Death Guard for sure, and maybe even a few of the other ones. His focus would really have been on maintaining the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Luna Wolves, Blood Angels, and a few others (Salamanders etc). Maybe keeping the Vlka Fenryka as a failsafe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2905044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I dunno. Those Thunder Warriors were a particular threat to humanity. Given their superiority to all but Primarch, including Custodes by the look of things, and their dubious morals, I'm certain their removal was necessary. The little information we had regarding them from the Last Church and now the Outcast Dead shows them to be ruthless and merciless. The den of their gang reminded me of Sledge's Safehouse in Borderlands! They also appear to retain their baser urges, as Ghota appeared to have some sort of desire to abuse Roxanne early on. They had to go and it's only a pity (at this stage at least) the Emperor hadn't removed entirely. Primarchs and their Legions are something else. There are always enemies in the galaxy after all and they have a sense of duty and brotherhood I didn't recognise in the Thunder Warriors. The real question is just what parts will they play in the Heresy series to come and just what did they create at the end? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2905256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I always thought the proto-astartes were inferior to the astartes and custodes. I don't remember where, but I recall reading that the reason the Emperor created the space marines was because he needed stronger warriors that could prosecute the Great Crusade. Something like the Thunder Warriors were too weak to do that kind of thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2905405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I always thought the proto-astartes were inferior to the astartes and custodes. I don't remember where, but I recall reading that the reason the Emperor created the space marines was because he needed stronger warriors that could prosecute the Great Crusade. Something like the Thunder Warriors were too weak to do that kind of thing. They were always mentioned as being inferior, but this latest novel certain puts that to rest as a rumour at best. If it's definitely just "inferior" then it is an open definition as to what that means. If weaker was used then it was incorrect information. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2905624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 It also reveals much about the nature of the Emperor. He actually states: "The problem with being omnipotent is you can't be all knowing and all powerful at the same time." Very insightful and explains much of why the Heresy went on beyond his control. And then: There is also a moment during his regicide game with Kai when he suggests sometimes you have to make sacrifices for a longer plan to work out. I took this to potentially mean 2 things. The first and most obvious is he was talking about defeating Horus. The second I felt hinted towards was the stagnation of the Imperium is all part of the plan. Of course the 2nd possibility was just an impression I got at the time. Man, I really, really hope GW hasn't decided to go with the 2nd possibility for the background now, it's such a dumb idea... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2905627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 They were always mentioned as being inferior, but this latest novel certain puts that to rest as a rumour at best. If it's definitely just "inferior" then it is an open definition as to what that means. If weaker was used then it was incorrect information. You know, I'm getting a bit tired of the Emperor's pilot projects all being worlds better than later refinements to them. When it's the Ad Mech doing it, maybe, but when it's him doing it it's just dumb. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2905742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 :( Yeah but to be fair it was a deliberate decision by him this time. The conquering of the galaxy and protection of the Imperium required more man power and it is even remarked upon the Astartes were more stable and suited to the purpose. I think of it as he improved upon the Thunder Warriors with the Primarchs and built Legions from them to increase man power. It dilutes the power a little but spreads their effectiveness over a wider area. And to be honest the Space Marines are adequate for the task, being superior to just about everything out there on the whole. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2905772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I think of it as GW showing why they're far better at broad strokes than with details. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2905783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Does this mean then that if The Emperor 'possibly' knew of the stagnation of the imperium and the need to sacrafice half his own sons to greater enemies for the good of the imperium, that the visions the chaos gods showed Horus........may of been true? (Where Horus has a vision of the Emperor not stopping the chaos powers dispersing the pods over the galaxy?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2905803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelation Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 From the conversation that the The Emperor had with Kai of needing him to show him the vision that Sarashina placed within his mind. What I got from those conversation is just what the Emperor said to Kai that he can see in to the future but can't see all the myriad of possibilities and outcomes that lead to that future that he sees (meaning he can't see everything that will happen in between the present and the future, only parts of what will lead to the visions of the future that he can see). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2910055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 He more than knew; it was a stated possibility of the future. It was a possible outcome; McNeill used the Regicide metaphor very well in explaining how the Emperor was more than willing to push for a 'stalemate' which would ensure species survival (and possible the emergence of New Man in numbers to combat Chaos; below). The Emperor knew that this endgame was just a possibility though and was likely making decisions on how to influence the outcome without a stalemate. The Regicide board being reset for a different player might seem to be for Horus but the Four Powers are next up to bat. (That would be a wicked game. Khorne's tactical genius; Slaanesh's flawless execution and various distractions from play; Nurgle's aura of neckbearded repulsion and lack of hygiene. Wait, sounds like the game shop...) In Legion, it is stated that the Alphas believe that the Emperor is forcing mankind through an anvil of forced social/genetic/technological evolution through the crucible of war. Old RT era stuff says the Emperor is trying to guide humanity towards the emergence of people who are like the Emperor; the New Man. These would be psychic bad mamajammas who would be nearly immune to the powers of forcible warp possession and the like. The Emperor knew the sacrifices and did what he had to do, "long term view" towards human species survival. If Horus wins then all is lost for mankind; pure and simple. Lets face it; you want to talk about a racist person? Emperor of Mankind. He does not like aliens a whole lot. Lets face it; In 30k-40k land, aliens are generally hostile slavers or overlords of the human species and have been described as so in mankind's turbulent 'Old Night' as well. One of the Emperor's stated goals is to free mankind from the oppression of 'Alien Overlords' and generally Imperial foreign policy regarding Alien Species is not one of Friendship. It is generally 'Accept subjugation and the Imperial writ or you get a Bolter to the face' type of policy. The Cabal in Legion explain to the Alphas how everyone in the galaxy gets the shaft if the humans get selfish and accept stagnation if the Emperor wins. I personally think the Emperor is like "Screw those pointy ears, gasbags, dust mites and what have you. I hate them anyways. I'll roll the dice and Let the Galaxy Burn if Man does not win. Speaking of the Alphas, what if they went 'Chaos' to help the Emperor's long term vision of forcible advancement along? Kind of an interesting thought I mulled over after this read. When Alpharius leaves saying 'what I do, I do for the Emperor' or something like that, perhaps Alpharius is stating his intent to use the Alpha Legion as a "Red Team" from Hell. By becoming an enemy of the Imperium of Man, the Alphas reject Horus and instead focus on preparing the Imperium for the long-term. Can anyone see PH-Fulgrim being a 40k player? I totally can after the description of the Primarch's gift chessboard. He would totally have the best minis, and likely be a smug, rules lawyering jerk. Prolly unbeatable as well. Whatdya' bet he would play EC? :) Uhm, World Eaters Sgt a badass? Hell yes! Thunder Warrior? OMG:cussPWNBBQSauce! Uhm, what up with that crazy stuff!? It is wild enough that Sarge is ripping out Custodes spines WITH NO WEAPONS OR ARMOR but Thunder Warrior basically being like Custodesx30?!?! I always thought in the old fluff when the authors meant "Inferior" that Thunder Warriors were like Brock Sampson/Bionic Man level of power versus the Astartes who were like Thor or Superman. Chill Galactus. edit: I like when the "Hunted" realize who Baku Dhakal is! Even the World Eaters have a "Oh horse poop!" moment." I really liked how McNeill stressed the violence of the Pre-Unity period on Terra. Terra was not shaped into the armored shell that the 40k universe knows without the landscape having been glassed by weapons, catastrophic psyker wars, biological plagues manufactured and natural, and possible subjugation of the populace by the 'Iron Men'. While Arik was his own character and likely will have his own destiny (I wait in anticipation to hear more about this guy! I think his geneseed is Chapter 666! OK, maybe not! Still curious ;) ) the background mentions of the Thunder Warriors in the novel and Arik's own explanation of the Thunder Warriors state they have a very very limited shelf-life. Pure and simple. Terra was the seat of power for all human endeavors and even if it was not the seat of a Dark Age of Technology Star System Government, Terra was still likely a place looked to as their race's 'spiritual home'. Big E knows this and knew the time till the clearing of the Warp Storm with the ending of the birth pangs of Slaanesh was coming near; he need a tool for the job which was unbeatable. Earth sounded (and still sounds) like a bad place in the Pre-30k/30k era, filled with psykers and psyked out armies, robots, genefreak human warlords bulked out like a Ork Nob or bigger and a host of other bad stuff. Thunder Warriors were made to get the job done but they seemed unstable and had a limited lifespan. This makes galactic travel very difficult which makes galactic conquest impossible. Maybe it is in this way Thunder Warriors are inferior to Astartes but man, talk about butt kicking for justice! One of the impressions I got from the story (and the Chronicles of Ursh and other Terran fluff in the stories) was that the Emperor wasnt the only crazy psyker-techno-battlelord-type running around Pre-Unity Earth and perhaps not even the best scientist out of the bunch! *Gasps* I know, the Emperor not perfect?! The Emperor was the one to come out on top though and that counts for everything in the end. Still it is kind of crazy to know that there were guys running around during the time who even the Emperor had to take a step back and be like "Whoa, this dude is dangerous." So uh, I really really liked this book. Okay, okay, let me back it up. I read this thing 3 times and on my first read I was lukewarm to it. Second read I warmed up to it. Third; I liked it. Now dont get me wrong, this is not a masterpiece and is not McNeill's best book by far. It was a great yarn though! I thought the pacing of the story was off, characterization were lacking or non-existent ('Lone Wolf McQuaid') for certain characters, the emphasis on the first 3/4's and the last 1/4 should have been reversed. McNeill was really excessively descriptive in the first few chapters but really finds his flow half-way through the novel. Trying to show the Chaos surrounding the Imperium and Terra through the City of Sight kind of dragged out and perhaps better change of pace blocks could have been used. Those complaints aside, what a good book! One of the better HH books and there was not a bit of Astartes Warplate in the whole book! Custodes are real jerks sometimes! Oh yeah, what up with the Custodes getting all Jedi and blocking plasma bolts with his guardian spear? Come on Graham ;) The Outcast Dead has some Bolter Pr0nZ but is an excellent tale with a good premise and theme, excellent background and history as well as a few new pieces! I highly recommend this book! Oh yeah, to my fellow Sons of Dorn, Rogal acts very very Templarish on several occasions. It brought me many smiles yes :D Happy days! Thanks Graham! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2910071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
voi shet magir Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I dunno. Those Thunder Warriors were a particular threat to humanity. Given their superiority to all but Primarch, including Custodes by the look of things, and their dubious morals, I'm certain their removal was necessary. The little information we had regarding them from the Last Church and now the Outcast Dead shows them to be ruthless and merciless. The den of their gang reminded me of Sledge's Safehouse in Borderlands! They also appear to retain their baser urges, as Ghota appeared to have some sort of desire to abuse Roxanne early on. They had to go and it's only a pity (at this stage at least) the Emperor hadn't removed entirely. Primarchs and their Legions are something else. There are always enemies in the galaxy after all and they have a sense of duty and brotherhood I didn't recognise in the Thunder Warriors. The real question is just what parts will they play in the Heresy series to come and just what did they create at the end? For sure they are a danger. Marines have their identities partly overwritten by their primarchs' so they can work together and toe the same line. This has nothing to do with more efficient armies with camraderie and teamwork. It's that the thunder warriors would just have become tyrants. I did aesthetically prefer thunder warriors as scraped together precursors, but if the real aim is social engineering, the titan-thunder warriors are definitely hodgepodge. Some of GW are good at details. I'm going to imagine that McNeil didn't come up with this. If you think it's stupid, you can blame it on him, but I'm not sure it is a bad thing and I don't hate the idea of one of the smarter creators coming up with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2910080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 When the Emperor spoke of sacrifice... I got the distinct impression he was talking about sacrificing Ferrus Manus. He even flat out states that a sacrifice in regicide is often meant to get the other player to reveal his hidden pieces. That's more or less what happened with Isstvan V and the Dropsite Massacres. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240163-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2919424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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