Heru2012 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I was just pondering on the fight between Horus and The Big E on the battle barge. Another topic about whether the Emperor saw it coming got me thinking about the fight and his confinement to the golden throne. This is just a bit of a consiracy theory/think tank but I just wondered what other thought. Horus had the Emperor killed, if I recall, he'd severed his arm, popped one of his eyes and pretty much smacked him 6 ways from sunday. It is that point that Horus came to the forefront and the it say the Chaos Gods sensed that they'd lost their tool, and so abandoned him, at which point the Emperor psychical breaks all laws of physics by destrying even his soul, ie breaking the laws of thermodynamics by destroying energy. Now, the part I'm pondering on is was it a trick by the chaos gods. If you think about it, the 40k universe is basically a bunch of gods playing chess for supremacy. If the Emperor knew he was going to die and did nothing, maybe he had foreknowledge that the worship of humanity, and of his death would create either his reincarnation or a god-entity powerful enough to challenge the primodial annihilators themselves. After all, it was all a game of tit for tat trying to one up the others plans. My theory is that the Chaos Gods could sense what was coming if the Emperor was to die outright, unleashing his spirit from his physical form. Knowing this they abandoned Horus after he had officially crippled the Emperor so badly that he could no longer survive as a figurehead of an empire apart from being on a lifesupport machine, therefore taking away his ability to even physically end his own life and cage him in his corpse. The Emperor tried to out do them, but they out thought him and rendered him useless, as the gods would have known his own loyal sons would not put him out of his misery, as there was enough betrayal floating around as it was. Therefore, the Emperors power is coalescing(sp?) through mankinds worship, but it is ultimately fruitless whilst he is locked on the throne. War spread through the galaxy, beaurocracy become rife, disease and bitter struggle in the lower classes becomes everyday life and the hedonism of the upper echelons becomes unchecked as they have control of the power and can bump oiff whoever gets in there way, forever fuelling the chaos gods. It kind of links in with the Thorian Inquisition cult, believing that he can inhabit a person but ultimimately he needs to die to be reborn, either as a god in the warp or a second coming in the material world. But until then, he is the losing player in a godlike game of chess. But thinking of that, if he does ever break free, after 10,000 years of worship, chaos would have to what its collective bottoms very closely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ive always had the same idea. If they'd just unplug him from the Throne he'd sort **** out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Emperor is not a chaos god or a warp entity. If a god comes out of warp due to mass prayers, he would not be Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru2012 Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Emperor is not a chaos god or a warp entity. If a god comes out of warp due to mass prayers, he would not be Emperor. Any canon to back that up or is that you're opinion? If there is canon to back that up, fine, if not, its your opinion, and its possible. Same as mines an opinion and is possible, as there is not really any canon to back that up, apart from saints, thorian beliefs etc... I'm looking for a discussion on the topic, not just someones one line opinion stated as though its fact with no evidence to either disprove the chance he is, or prove what your saying is true, so unless you have something more than a oneline statement to bring to the table, why post on a discussion forum. :) Oh, quick edit: If a daemon gets worship, he gains power, a new daemon doesn't form and start growing out of nothing, leaving the original target of worship impotent. If that was the way it worked then the chaos gods would never gain any power, there would just be loads of new daemons pop up everytime someone worships khorne. Just saying, so technically, it would be the Emperors soul that is powered by people worship, there would be no reason for another entity to be created everytime someone makes a prayer in his name. If 40k is true to anything it is the saying "Faith lends substance" my friend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryphaus 101 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Oh, quick edit: If a daemon gets worship, he gains power, a new daemon doesn't form and start growing out of nothing, leaving the original target of worship impotent. If that was the way it worked then the chaos gods would never gain any power, there would just be loads of new daemons pop up everytime someone worships khorne. Yes but every daemon is essentially an extension of their god's will so the new daemons that pop up when someone worships Khorne do actually make him more powerful because their sort of like more body parts. On topic, you're theory is an interesting one. I think another reason the Emperor didn't let Horus kill him was because he knew what would happen if Horus won and the Emperor's loyalty was with the human race. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru2012 Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Oh, quick edit: If a daemon gets worship, he gains power, a new daemon doesn't form and start growing out of nothing, leaving the original target of worship impotent. If that was the way it worked then the chaos gods would never gain any power, there would just be loads of new daemons pop up everytime someone worships khorne. Yes but every daemon is essentially an extension of their god's will so the new daemons that pop up when someone worships Khorne do actually make him more powerful because their sort of like more body parts. On topic, you're theory is an interesting one. I think another reason the Emperor didn't let Horus kill him was because he knew what would happen if Horus won and the Emperor's loyalty was with the human race. I see your point from the perspective of aligned daemons, but what about daemons out there like the Exalted in the ADB Night Lords novels? He/she/it seems to have no affiliation or will to do anything for anyone but himself. I'm sure daemons have been described before as sometimes being demigods of backwater worlds, growing strong and sticking around through the worship of barbaric cultures. I'll have to look it up. Daemons that are aligned to a specific god are generally portrayed as souls that have been "transformed" to serve their creator, like bloodletters being the souls of those who died in a particularly horrific way surrounded by the corpses of those they have slain. Again, can't remember where this was stated. This would make them mere extensions of the gods wills, but there are always minor deities being described as existing but only the big 4 live on eternally. Yeah, they're my two thoughts, either he got pipped to the post and got held in eternal checkmate at the last hurdle to his apotheosis, or that he simply sacrificed his life so that humanity could survive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the emperor is scottish Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Since I got into the hobby years ago there was the story that when the emperor died he would become 'the star child' a new god to challenge the big 4. My theory is the gods needed to stop him before he united humanity and had the hundredes of trillions of people on countless billions of planets worshiping him either as a god or messiah giving him the power to assend to god hood apon his death. Again in my opinion I'm not sure the gods abandoned Horus perhaps the true Horus managed to gain control of the battered and tortured form he'd became just long enough to allow the emperor to grant him peace. The emperor annihilating his sons soul as mercy so it didn't become the play thing of the gods. The gods didn't all of a sudden stop their support to the traitors, they were blasted back inti the very depths of the warp by the emperors blast that wiped Horus from existence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Emperor is not a chaos god or a warp entity. If a god comes out of warp due to mass prayers, he would not be Emperor. Surely all the worship is directed at the emperors warp presence and if a god is formed it would be this presence magnified Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIDM Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I think it would be pretty easy for them to play it out as The Emperor being a Chaos God. He was "born" due to mass suicide of psychers. He is worshiped by billions, and as we all know they all play games. This is the ultimate game, he is the Ultimate Chaos God. Look how much choas he spread in the universe "unifying" it. He is the ultimate troll, he has been trolling for ever now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru2012 Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 I think it would be pretty easy for them to play it out as The Emperor being a Chaos God. He was "born" due to mass suicide of psychers. He is worshiped by billions, and as we all know they all play games. This is the ultimate game, he is the Ultimate Chaos God. Look how much choas he spread in the universe "unifying" it. He is the ultimate troll, he has been trolling for ever now. See, if I'd wanted to go down the chaos god route, I'd have gone the Malal route too. The god that is lets say "smaller in stature" than the other but is less fickle, pumping all his power into one person at a time. Now what a good way to get one back on his brothers than by stealing all their worship and supercharging. Malal was the ultimate troll too :) But, alas, I may be burned at the stake for that last comment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Emperor is not a chaos god or a warp entity. If a god comes out of warp due to mass prayers, he would not be Emperor. Any canon to back that up or is that you're opinion? If there is canon to back that up, fine, if not, its your opinion, and its possible. Same as mines an opinion and is possible, as there is not really any canon to back that up, apart from saints, thorian beliefs etc... I'm looking for a discussion on the topic, not just someones one line opinion stated as though its fact with no evidence to either disprove the chance he is, or prove what your saying is true, so unless you have something more than a oneline statement to bring to the table, why post on a discussion forum. ;) Oh, quick edit: If a daemon gets worship, he gains power, a new daemon doesn't form and start growing out of nothing, leaving the original target of worship impotent. If that was the way it worked then the chaos gods would never gain any power, there would just be loads of new daemons pop up everytime someone worships khorne. Just saying, so technically, it would be the Emperors soul that is powered by people worship, there would be no reason for another entity to be created everytime someone makes a prayer in his name. If 40k is true to anything it is the saying "Faith lends substance" my friend. Well, worship not only empowers what is being worshipped, but also shapes it. When the Emperor ascends to godhood, he'll have that core of what he originally was, but that will be "tainted" by a galaxies worth of entrenched views of him as things other than the man he was. After all, as we all know, the Emperor lives in the sun, and drives back the Night Horrors, but at the same moment, he's the Sky Warlord, watching from the stars and judging every warrior, taking those who prove themselves worthy. He's also the Wrath Incarnate, destroying everything harmful to His Imperium, which as we all know includes every single dirty... psyker *shudders*, even the "necessary" ones like the Astropaths and Navigators. Remember, we can't believe their heretical lies, all psykers are an abomination in the eyes of the Emperor, and should be burned, lest you become guilty of allowing their continued existance, damned in the eyes of the Emperor, He Who Judges All. The God-Emperor isn't one single being. It's a galaxy's worth of conflicting images and opinions, many contradicting each other, only united in the knowledge that he's the one God of Humanity, and in 99% of cases, that he lives on/in a place called Terra. So yeah, if the God-Emperor ever woke up, which would it be? The wrathful God-Emperor of the Red Redemption? One of the many sun-god Emperors? The man venerated by the Astartes? Or one of the countless other forms he takes in the many and varied Imperial faiths across the galaxy? What will his stance on Psykers be? Whatever it is, it'll be declared heretical by half of the Imperium. After all, as every good Emperor-worshipper knows, the Emperor hates the psyker above all. However, at the same time, only a sector away, as every good Emperor-worshipper knows, the Emperor accepts that the psyker has a valued and necessary place in the Imperium, and they have a holy duty to perform their tasks. What about the Omnissiah? How machine-like will the reborn Emperor be? After all, the entire Mechanicus worships him as the incarnation of the Machine God. Surely some non-mechanical being cannot be the Omnissiah? Any fleshy "Emperor" must obviously be a dirty trick to discredit the Mechanicum faith, engineered by the Ministorum to increase their own power! What will he look like? After all, the inhabitants of planet Y know that the Emperor is recognisable by his giant stature, his blond hair, and the flaming sword he carries. But the inhabitants of planet X know that blond hair is unclean in the eyes of the Emperor, and that the Emperor is the same size as you or me, with black hair, and shining eyes. He also certainly doesn't carry a sword, as touching a weapon is anathema to one such as him, that's why he created the Astartes, his Angels of Wrath, to fight his enemies for him. In summary, there is no one portrayal of the Emperor. Any Emperor that may or may not get reborn will probably be seen as the complete opposite of what the Emperor should be in a significant portion of the Imperium. The Imperial Faith is simply too varied for any universal image to ever be created. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 There's also the theory from Legion. Spoiler alert from Legion. Horus would supposedly have realized what he'd done and would have turned around and annihalated chaos forever. This was also supposed to be the real reason the alphas joined Horus during the heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru2012 Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Emperor is not a chaos god or a warp entity. If a god comes out of warp due to mass prayers, he would not be Emperor. Any canon to back that up or is that you're opinion? If there is canon to back that up, fine, if not, its your opinion, and its possible. Same as mines an opinion and is possible, as there is not really any canon to back that up, apart from saints, thorian beliefs etc... I'm looking for a discussion on the topic, not just someones one line opinion stated as though its fact with no evidence to either disprove the chance he is, or prove what your saying is true, so unless you have something more than a oneline statement to bring to the table, why post on a discussion forum. ;) Oh, quick edit: If a daemon gets worship, he gains power, a new daemon doesn't form and start growing out of nothing, leaving the original target of worship impotent. If that was the way it worked then the chaos gods would never gain any power, there would just be loads of new daemons pop up everytime someone worships khorne. Just saying, so technically, it would be the Emperors soul that is powered by people worship, there would be no reason for another entity to be created everytime someone makes a prayer in his name. If 40k is true to anything it is the saying "Faith lends substance" my friend. Well, worship not only empowers what is being worshipped, but also shapes it. When the Emperor ascends to godhood, he'll have that core of what he originally was, but that will be "tainted" by a galaxies worth of entrenched views of him as things other than the man he was. After all, as we all know, the Emperor lives in the sun, and drives back the Night Horrors, but at the same moment, he's the Sky Warlord, watching from the stars and judging every warrior, taking those who prove themselves worthy. He's also the Wrath Incarnate, destroying everything harmful to His Imperium, which as we all know includes every single dirty... psyker *shudders*, even the "necessary" ones like the Astropaths and Navigators. Remember, we can't believe their heretical lies, all psykers are an abomination in the eyes of the Emperor, and should be burned, lest you become guilty of allowing their continued existance, damned in the eyes of the Emperor, He Who Judges All. The God-Emperor isn't one single being. It's a galaxy's worth of conflicting images and opinions, many contradicting each other, only united in the knowledge that he's the one God of Humanity, and in 99% of cases, that he lives on/in a place called Terra. So yeah, if the God-Emperor ever woke up, which would it be? The wrathful God-Emperor of the Red Redemption? One of the many sun-god Emperors? The man venerated by the Astartes? Or one of the countless other forms he takes in the many and varied Imperial faiths across the galaxy? What will his stance on Psykers be? Whatever it is, it'll be declared heretical by half of the Imperium. After all, as every good Emperor-worshipper knows, the Emperor hates the psyker above all. However, at the same time, only a sector away, as every good Emperor-worshipper knows, the Emperor accepts that the psyker has a valued and necessary place in the Imperium, and they have a holy duty to perform their tasks. What about the Omnissiah? How machine-like will the reborn Emperor be? After all, the entire Mechanicus worships him as the incarnation of the Machine God. Surely some non-mechanical being cannot be the Omnissiah? Any fleshy "Emperor" must obviously be a dirty trick to discredit the Mechanicum faith, engineered by the Ministorum to increase their own power! What will he look like? After all, the inhabitants of planet Y know that the Emperor is recognisable by his giant stature, his blond hair, and the flaming sword he carries. But the inhabitants of planet X know that blond hair is unclean in the eyes of the Emperor, and that the Emperor is the same size as you or me, with black hair, and shining eyes. He also certainly doesn't carry a sword, as touching a weapon is anathema to one such as him, that's why he created the Astartes, his Angels of Wrath, to fight his enemies for him. In summary, there is no one portrayal of the Emperor. Any Emperor that may or may not get reborn will probably be seen as the complete opposite of what the Emperor should be in a significant portion of the Imperium. The Imperial Faith is simply too varied for any universal image to ever be created. Good call! So maybe it could end up as a deity that is as fractured as the Emperors is, with an almost schizophrenic god arguing against paradoxes of itself. But then you could reason that its almost as God is viewed in the Bible, Wrathful of Merciful, choose your flavour! If the above is the case, then one thing is certain: In the 41st Millenium, there is only war....and the ecchlesiarchy has to get a single edition Lectitio Divinitatus printed and issued asap. But then again as a counter to that, the chaos gods are worshipped in a huge variation of forms and yet they are only one being. Its almost as if its a case of as long as you worship me I don't care how you view me, it makes me stronger. Once the power is born, like slaanesh, and it establishes its own sentience, it forms itself how it views itself. Almost like Charlie Sheen, the bigger he gets the more attention he gets, the more of a parody of himself he becomes! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2898972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryphaus 101 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Again in my opinion I'm not sure the gods abandoned Horus perhaps the true Horus managed to gain control of the battered and tortured form he'd became just long enough to allow the emperor to grant him peace. The emperor annihilating his sons soul as mercy so it didn't become the play thing of the gods. The gods didn't all of a sudden stop their support to the traitors, they were blasted back inti the very depths of the warp by the emperors blast that wiped Horus from existence. I'm pretty sure I've read that somewhere. I just can't remember where. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240167-horus-betrayal/#findComment-2901721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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