LostAlone Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Hey guys A small group at my RPG club are about to embark on an Inquisitor campaign, and I'm going to be playing a tech priest for the duration (because the machine cult is WAY more fun than any of those stuck up inquisition types) and I'm trying to get a handle on a few bits to really get into character. One of the things that I'm wondering about is the concept of the machine god and how 'real' he really is. I kind of get the feeling that the machine god, and by extension machine spirits in general, is just an easy explanation to the imperial populace for technologies which would otherwise appear to be 'magic', the same way as we might explain cars and so forth to people from a few hundred years ago. However, at the same time there is various bits of flavour that gives the feeling that machine spirits and so forth genuinely do affect the hardware in question. So my question is this: Is the machine god an ancient and convenient (and now forgotten) fabrication from before the dark age of technology which allows the mechanicus to horde their secrets and in doing so make themselves completely indispensable and grudgingly acceptable to the empire ? As so much time has past, the propaganda has eventually become 'the truth' even inside the mechanicus. The original cult was a loose group of crazy scientists who spent all their time playing with plasma and lasers and so forth and replacing parts of themselves with machines. They were dedicated to development and invention, and hid the true extent of their abilities under a religious styled cult to prevent their secrets falling into other people's hands. As time progressed and the ranks of the mechanicus expanded, the top echelon needed to hide their original nature even from their adepts, allowing them to join the cult but not become part of their circle. Eventually the majority of the mechanicus never knew or suspected they had been decieved, aside from a handful of selected brothers who join the inner circle who carry out their work in secret, planting their new knowledge inside ancient STC templates to be discovered by others. Perhaps the individual machine spirits which various people experiance are simple AI systems monitoring systems and can just connect to a techpriests implants. Naturally the mass of un-knowing adepts are the ones who oppose change and innovation because they only know the cult, not the science. Alternatively, is the machine god a genuine force in the universe ? All of the technology is genuinely the bounty of the machine god, and what was originally laid down in some ancient text is literally religious rit to the mechanicus. The machine god laid down very specific technologies and anything else is completely proscribed and indeed completely surplus to requirements. Anything without the machine gods blessing is anathama. Machine spirits inhabit every machine he blesses and it is they who allow even the most unstable and unlikely technologies to function as long as the user respects them. This explains why chaos and ork wargear can work even far from the mechanicuses eyes. Both groups venerate the power that their weapons and machines give them, and despite a lack of spare parts (for chaos) or even really parts at all (orks) the machine spirit remains and allows them to work. Machine spirits are neither good or evil, they simply require devotion. I like both approaches really. There's something to be said for the 'godless cult' approach certainly, but also the 'genuine fanatics' whose constant work is the only reason the imperium can function at all. What do you guys think ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
muadib02 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 While I personally like the Foundation approach where the mechanicus were originally hoarders of tech who held power by ritualizing its usage/maintenance....which led to a future lack of understanding etc. I have to subscribe to the Machine God as being the Void Dragon (the C'Tan). As well, these two ideas are not mutually exclusive. It is possible for the machine god to be the Void Dragon, while the Mechanicus is also a giant historical power play based on control of technology. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2898833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I believe the 'canon' (According to Horus Heresy) explanation is that the majority of human technology is the Dreams of a Sleeping God, Cthulhu-mythos style, from the Void Dragon that the Emperor slayed in the forgotten times. The question of how the emperor and the void dragon got to Mars is never covered, but I personally suggest a dolmen gate or Necron transport network. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2898885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Have you read the HH book Mechanicus? I think you should before you play a techpriest in the RPG, it would really help you out and give you some insight into the workings of the mechanicus and some ideas about the machine god. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2898890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 While I personally like the Foundation approach where the mechanicus were originally hoarders of tech who held power by ritualizing its usage/maintenance....which led to a future lack of understanding etc. I have to subscribe to the Machine God as being the Void Dragon (the C'Tan). As well, these two ideas are not mutually exclusive. It is possible for the machine god to be the Void Dragon, while the Mechanicus is also a giant historical power play based on control of technology. I pretty much agree with this :) I also think that the technology that humanity enjoyed in 30K might not have been invented and/or discovered by them, but gifted by another race, be that subtle or overtly. So they never really understood it, but knew how to operate it. Then to remember how to operate it, they came up with mnemonics and rituals, which then became what 40K suffers from. So the Machine God is real, but is a C'tan, who enjoyed being a puppeteer with humanity. The Emperor then, allegedly, sets up prophecy within the Cult, and later fulfils them, to be seen as the Omnissiah. As per McNeill's book, Mechanicum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2898891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostAlone Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Thanks for the thoughts guys, I'll see if I can track down some of the mechanicus book. I honestly never knew there was so much cannon written about the mechanicus. Regardless of the origins of the ad.mech beliefs, would you say that the vast majority of the m41 tech preists know relatively little about the technologies they are dealing with ? IE. They know how to put them together and replace broken parts but not a whole lot more, the same way I can repair my computer but I know nothing about transistors and capacitors. Since there seems to be the feeling that the machine spirit is a real thing, to what extent does this effect the use of technology ? Perhaps allowing things to survive and continue working when they shouldn't ? Seemingly broken radios being coaxed back to life without repair ? Things like that maybe ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2899546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Have you read the HH book Mechanicus? I think you should before you play a techpriest in the RPG, it would really help you out and give you some insight into the workings of the mechanicus and some ideas about the machine god. A thousand times this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2899584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muadib02 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I believe that understanding of tech varies from cult to cult and priest to priest. All follow the rituals etc, but some may dig deeper and attempt to understand what they are doing, while others simply go through the motions. The rituals are as much to obscure/protect their own knowledge as they are to actually achieve a goal...by shrouding their actions in mysticism they prevent others from tampering with their work. I think many Magos understand much more than they let on...but then again I also think that level of understanding/knowledge increases up the Tech Priest ladder. So the basic priest knows enough to do his job, mostly ritual etc. and the higher ups (who can also be called in to solve bigger problems) have more understanding of the systems etc and can make logical solutions, and the odd innovation, due to their actual knowledge. I see the machine spirit as a combination of 2 things...innate AI and the Void Dragon's influence. Seemingly random tech starting to work for inexplicable reasons... probably VD. Power Armour and SM Vehicles being able to briefly control themselves, move, and engage on their own is probably just limited system AI running the background of the vehicle/armour Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2899746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magos Invello Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Have you read the HH book Mechanicus? I think you should before you play a techpriest in the RPG, it would really help you out and give you some insight into the workings of the mechanicus and some ideas about the machine god. A thousand times this. Also read Titanicus it covers some of the mechanicus - imperial tension and is full of background stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2899747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostAlone Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 Cheers again guys. Lots of stuff to think about, and I'll definitely try and find the books to work from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2900408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereticus81 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Thanks for the thoughts guys, I'll see if I can track down some of the mechanicus book. I honestly never knew there was so much cannon written about the mechanicus. Regardless of the origins of the ad.mech beliefs, would you say that the vast majority of the m41 tech preists know relatively little about the technologies they are dealing with ? IE. They know how to put them together and replace broken parts but not a whole lot more, the same way I can repair my computer but I know nothing about transistors and capacitors. Since there seems to be the feeling that the machine spirit is a real thing, to what extent does this effect the use of technology ? Perhaps allowing things to survive and continue working when they shouldn't ? Seemingly broken radios being coaxed back to life without repair ? Things like that maybe ? May I also recommend Titanicus by Dan abnett. It's a brilliant book that covers quite a bit of modern, as in 41st millenium, mechanicus belief and the schisms that run deep in the organisation that are hidden from outsiders and the lower echelons. Though it is a beast of a book it's worthwhile. Personally I'd say that as a starting tech priest your second paragraph is pretty accurate. Omly the upper echelons will experiment and explore new things, such activities are discouraged for most of the Mechanicus who are expected to do what they're told and as they've been trained. My view of the machine spirit is that it's a sham used by the Mechanicus originally to cement their position but over time it's become fact and maybe all but the upper echelon believe it to be true. But of course that's just my opinion! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2925261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Studio Silvernale Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I always thought the "machine god" was some kind of AI supercomputer that was built to aid in technical design. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2925622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnosaur93 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Void dragon. somehow communing with the highest ranks of AdMech, slowly learning them that replacing weak flesh with pure steel will is the best thing ever, eventually turning them into automat( c)rons so he can eat their delicious souls as breakfest on the bed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2931127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromat Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 So if the Machine God really is the Void Dragon (heresy I say!) and all humanity's tech runs off of his dreams, wha happens when he wakes up? The cylons shut everything down and the Imperium has no vehicles? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2932308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drychnath Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 The Mechanicus seem to be treated two different ways, in general, by the fiction - in the more regular interpretation, they are simply exceedingly jealous guardians of technology, who treat cybernetic enhancement and technical knowledge as sacrosanct and progress according to the rules of a mystery religion (like the Church of Scientology, with labor being the requirement to advance). In this version, the Machine God is a more beneficent force, amounting to the source of inspiration and the Platonic ideal of all mechanical design. Prayers are independently composed votive offerings, as with any other deity, and accompany activities they perform to sanctify them. The second, darker approach is that there are few, if any, actual scientists or engineers amongst them, and that they are instead rote-learned technologists strangled by their superstition, inefficiency, and paranoia. In this version, the Machine Spirit is simply a mild anthropomorphization of AI and the unpredictable interactions of imperfect equipment. In this instance, prayers to the Machine God are implied to be verbalized instructions for operation or maintenance, cast in a sacred light out of ignorance. The fiction from Black Library in particular runs the gamut between the two, but for example, Mechanicus and Titanicus tend to favor the former version (though not strictly, as Mechanicus articulates the strangling control over knowledge and paranoia very well), and in novels like Storm of Iron by Graham McNeill (another excellent source), favor the latter in some detail. I myself tend to favor the latter interpretation, as it conforms better with the grim and hopeless nature of the 40K universe. Innovation is heresy. New discovery is heresy. Important knowledge must be restricted and contained. All efforts at investigation and experimentation are only to re-discover lost knowledge and put it in its proper context. To weigh in on the subject of the Void Dragon - my interpretation of the Necron Codex and Mechanicus is that the imprisonment of the C'tan on Mars lead to dreams inspiring invention, industry, and the veneration thereof, rather than worship directly. The absence of the Void Dragon, when it inevitably awakens, (I vaguely recollect implications it already has - can anyone source something like this?) would be without impact. Given the stringent and restrictive nature of Adeptus teachings on innovation anyway, I doubt they would lose much. There is nothing to indicate that the presence of the thing is in fact a directly relevant mechanism - simply a necessary long term influence. To summarize: the Machine God is NOT the Void Dragon. Nor is there any indication that the Machine God is an independent entity in fact, that I have read. I favor the superstition interpretation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2940521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drucifer Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Personally I think the machine God is just the way they keep others in the dark and stop them from tinkering and taking things apart, ensuring people stick to the correct way of using equipment......"Don't forget to put on your seatbelt or the Machine God won't let you start the vehicle".......as for STC templates well I think they just have to wait for the correct Haynes manuals to be found! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2940715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostclaw222 Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Drychnath has it. The Emperor's grand plan called for someone to guard technological advancements through Old Night. He bested the Void Dragon (or a very, very large shard of same), and placed the beaten C'tan in a prison on Mars. Seeing as how this was way back in our present day past, he most likely had to teleport himself, use some sort of local warp gate, or the big E already had interplanetary travel and was just being stingy with the rest of humanity for a few more millennia. The very presence of the slumbering Void Dragon (ubershard) was sufficient to generationally skew the Martian thoughts towards technology, towards machines. Somewhere along the way, later on, once Martian development was underway and mostly independent, the Emperor planted an idea in their belief system of a God of Technology, a Machine God, and added a prophecy that someday, an avatar of that god, the Omnissiah, would appear, and lead Mars into a golden era. Then, he waited a bit for the religion to develop, and fulfilled his own prophecy. So, in fact, the Emperor is the Omnissiah, but there really, technically, isn't a Machine God. He's a myth that the Emperor and the slumbering Void Dragon cooked up and left in the stew pot for a few thousand years. While I agree that Mechanicus is the first book on your research list, I have to echo a previous poster and emphasize you also read Titanicus. It literally deals with the what-if of the Emperor's secret getting out, and the question as to whether or not he is in fact the Omnissiah. Worth a read for that alone, but honestly, the titan battles will teach you a lot about how the AdMech view their world as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2946012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphus Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 So if the Machine God really is the Void Dragon (heresy I say!) and all humanity's tech runs off of his dreams, wha happens when he wakes up? The cylons shut everything down and the Imperium has no vehicles? The same thing that happens in DoW: Dark Crusade when assaulting the Necron Fortress Catacombs and you neglect to wipe out the Void Dragon's section: ALL YOUR VEHICLES ARE BELONG TO US! "It feeds young Adept! It feeds!" screamed the heretic. "If it has turned its attention this way once more then we are nought food for the gods! Food for the gods!" Excerpt from Codex: Necron umm, 3rd edition (the previous one). Page 59. Great story that one, get your mits on it. Now...just imagine, every mechanical thing under the Void Dragon's control... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2951582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuclear Fridge Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 "It feeds young Adept! It feeds!" screamed the heretic. "If it has turned its attention this way once more then we are nought food for the gods! Food for the gods!" Excerpt from Codex: Necron umm, 3rd edition (the previous one). Page 59. Great story that one, get your mits on it. Now...just imagine, every mechanical thing under the Void Dragon's control... If you can read it -- "Ravenor Rogue". Seriously. EVERYONE has an agenda -- and it is not pretty. Tech... Weapons... Knowledge... all are weapons. And you do not know who (or what) the enemies are -- until it's too late! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2954852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Theres the other rumour too; the Ad-Mech watches over an enslaved void dragon, forcing technological knowledge and closer communion to the necessarily omnipotent techno-mind of the VD in an entirly human reaction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-2971853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overlord-Rakszan Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Its all quite simple, yet still up to full interpritation: 1) The Void Dragon (possibly a C'tan Shard) is trapped on within Mars. The presence of the C'tan could hint towards the possibility that Mars was infact a tomb world. The essence of the C'tan would be enough to power and strengthen various machines, since this was his trait. 2) If Mars was a Tomb world then it makes perfect sence to the amount of tecnological reserch that took place. The dark age of tecenology could all be originated from Necron Tecnology. 3) A C'tan is of near God like power, star spawn. If the Emperor defeated the C'tan, which he is fully capable of doing, then the Tesseract Labyrinths, used by the Necrons to hold C'tan shards, would have made a perfectly serseptable prison for the Emperor to hold him in statis. Conclusion- The Machine spirit is really a Necron C'tan shard, Mars was a tomb world responcible for the dark age of technology, and it is definitly likley hes still held there today. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-3076430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 You also might want to wait for a Mechanicus sourcebook that's soon to be released for Dark Heresy. I can only expect that it'll cover most, if not all, of the questions you could have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240189-is-the-machine-god-real/#findComment-3076452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.