Combat squads, transports and reserves

[SickSix]

I have a slew of questions relating to deploying a 10 man Assault Terminator squad. First I'll state what I think/know is legal:

-You can combat squad terminators

-You can deploy units in a non-dedicated transport (Heavy support slotted Land Raider for example)

-You can only take up to TWO dedicated transport LRs (a single Tactical Termi squad and a single Assault Termi squad)

-Units cannot be combat squaded while in reserves

 

Questions:

1. Can you combat squad terminators and then deploy BOTH onto the table in Land Raiders (one being dedicated, the other HS choice)?

 

2. If the answer is no, then does one combat squad have to use it's movement phase to embark in the HS Land Raider?

 

3. What happens when you deploy from reserves with a unit too big for it's transport? Basically what happens to a 10 man termi squad with a LR in Dawn of War deployment?

[Seahawk]

1. Yes, as I see no reason that you can't.

 

2. n/a

 

3. When the unit arrives from Reserves, you may choose to Combat Squad when they arrive and deploy (but not while they are still in Reserves). Thus, if you rolled successfully for the full terminator squad and the land raider, the 10 terminators would deploy from the same spot, then split, putting half in the land raider and half stays walking. Just remember that the land raider has to move onto the table first so that the terminators have somewhere to embark to.

[SickSix]

Ok, so coming in in from reserves (off a successful roll) the squad could then be split, one team could be deployed in the LR and the other would hoof it and pray for the next LR to come in.

 

That makes sense.

 

So not being able to combat squad in reserves simply keeps people from holding more units off the table basically, and doesn't really affect deployment per se?

[Seahawk]

Right. Combat Squads in Reserves would result in two separate rolls, one for each combat squad. This is what is disallowed.

 

What is allowed is having it arrive from Reserves, then breaking down into combat squads. Move the land raider on first, then the terminators, and one squad moves up to the land raider and embarks.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Ok, so coming in in from reserves (off a successful roll) the squad could then be split, one team could be deployed in the LR and the other would hoof it and pray for the next LR to come in.

 

No.

 

When a unit is placed in reserves you MUST declare how it will enter play, which includes if it will be embarked and if any IC are attached. Excpeting a few very specific xeno rules this decision CANNOT be changed.

 

While in reserves the entire 10 man unit is a single unit, if the unit cannot fit in the transport then you MAY NOT declare they will enter in it, because they simply dont fit, in which case they and their transport will need to be rolled for seperately for reserves, even if it was a dedicated transport.

 

If they can fit they will then no longer be able to combat squad (except in the case of a drop pod due to specific allowance in the combat squad rules) because the entire unit is a single entity in reserves and thus if coming in from reserves embarked the entire unit must be embarked. If you tried to combat squad them then you would end up with 2 units in a transport wich is NOT legal. If you want to combat squad when coming in from reserves you must enter on foot, via deepstrike, or in a drop pod (or a superheavy transport if you are playing a ruleset that allows superheavies).

 

If you want to combat squad and put o squad in a transport you must eather do it after they come in from reserves, OR during the deployment phase (before the first turn starts).

 

 

 

so in answer to your questions

 

1. Only in the deployment phase (aka not when coming in from reserve)

2. if done from reserves BOTH combat squads would have to use thier movement phase to enter their respective land raiders, asuming said land raiders are already on the board.

3. When you put the terminators in reserve you must declare if they will be embarked or not, as the 10 terminators cannot fit into the landraider you may not declare they are embarked, and as such both the terminator squad and the land raid will be placed into reserves seperately, and rolled for seperatly.

[SickSix]

Ah, Thank you Pyro! Great explanation.

[angry man]

1. Yes, as I see no reason that you can't.

 

2. n/a

 

3. When the unit arrives from Reserves, you may choose to Combat Squad when they arrive and deploy (but not while they are still in Reserves). Thus, if you rolled successfully for the full terminator squad and the land raider, the 10 terminators would deploy from the same spot, then split, putting half in the land raider and half stays walking. Just remember that the land raider has to move onto the table first so that the terminators have somewhere to embark to.

 

as i understand it, a unit that is reserved cannot combat squad, ever. maybe there is another way to interpret the Space marine FAQ though?

 

Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and

then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other

combat squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but

not in the Drop Pod? (p69)

A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may

not break down into combat squads.

 

AM

[thade]

as i understand it, a unit that is reserved cannot combat squad, ever.

This is a common misinterpretation of the rule and the FAQ and has come up on this board before. It has only to do with transports: specifically, a unit in Reserve cannot be broken into Combat Squads (with one half in a Dedicated Transport and the other half on foot) because units are only broken into Combat Squads when they are Deployed. Thus, if a full squad can't fit in its Dedicated Razorback and it's in Reserves, it must break into Combat Squads on Deployment and manually embark into the Razorback. Also, if a squad is in a Rhino in Reserves, it cannot break into Combat Squads upon Deployment. (The only SM vehicle that allows this is the Drop Pod, per its specific rules.)

 

When transports are not a factor, Combat Squads are a go. You can declare a unit in Reserve and upon their Deployment they may break into Combat Squads. You can do this dynamically (i.e. you needn't declare it when placing them in Reserves as they are not "Deployed" into Reserves...when in Reserves, you are not yet Deployed).

 

You can even Deep Strike Combat Squads, but there is a catch: you declare the entire unit to be DSing and thus when they come in you declare them Combat Squadding: both combat squads must Deep Strike. (This makes sense, right? Riding in on the same drop ship. ;) )

 

So, in answer to the OPs question, what he's trying to do won't fly with Reserves, because a Transport is involved. Best he can do in that scenario is manually embark the Combat Squads onto each Land Raider when they Deploy and combat squad. It would be better to take two 5-man Hammernator teams to make this a non-issue.

 

ADDENDUM: I didn't mean to contradict Seahawk's notes above; those are also accurate. If Reserves are NOT a factor (i.e. you're Deploying before turn 1) I see no reason at all you can't put two Land Raiders down, break the Hammernator unit into combat squads, and embark them both, during Deployment. The only issue is - again -with Reserves. :wacko:

 

EDIT: Clarifications

[SickSix]

So, in answer to the OPs question, what he's trying to do won't fly with Reserves, because a Transport is involved. Best he can do in that scenario is manually embark the Combat Squads onto each Land Raider when they Deploy and combat squad. It would be better to take two 5-man Hammernator teams to make this a non-issue.

 

Well breaking them into two separate squads still poses the problem that you can only take ONE dedicated LR for ONE assault terminator squad. But let's say I do take two squads:

-One sqd can embark it's dedicated land raider in reserves

-Can the other one be embarked in a Heavy Support Land Raider while in reserves?

[JamesI]

So, in answer to the OPs question, what he's trying to do won't fly with Reserves, because a Transport is involved. Best he can do in that scenario is manually embark the Combat Squads onto each Land Raider when they Deploy and combat squad. It would be better to take two 5-man Hammernator teams to make this a non-issue.

 

Well breaking them into two separate squads still poses the problem that you can only take ONE dedicated LR for ONE assault terminator squad. But let's say I do take two squads:

-One sqd can embark it's dedicated land raider in reserves

-Can the other one be embarked in a Heavy Support Land Raider while in reserves?

Yes. If you take 2 squads, one can embark in their dedicated transport, the other in a Heavy Support Land Raider (assuming you don't play Blood Angels, we don't get Heavy Support Land Raiders)

[angry man]

the answer to the FAQ question says quite clearly that a unit that is placed in reserve may not combat squad. the answer places no restrictions or conditions other than that it is referring to a squad that is left in reserve. transports are not a requirement to making this FAQ answer relevant...

 

squads that are placed in reserve may

not break down into combat squads

 

AM

[Seahawk]

Simply repeating the same false sentence will not win an argument.

 

"The player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks from the Drop Pod." (C:SM p.51)

 

This clearly says you can combat squad from Reserves but not while in Reserves.

[dswanick]

the answer to the FAQ question says quite clearly that a unit that is placed in reserve may not combat squad. the answer places no restrictions or conditions other than that it is referring to a squad that is left in reserve. transports are not a requirement to making this FAQ answer relevant...

 

squads that are placed in reserve may

not break down into combat squads

 

AM

as i understand it, a unit that is reserved cannot combat squad, ever. maybe there is another way to interpret the Space marine FAQ though?

 

[...] edited

 

Here's your time limit, which the FAQ is reinforcing and which you are conveniently ignoring :

The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed.

When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve.

 

At the start of each of his Movement phases except the first, before moving any unit, the player must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve. Depending on the turn in question, a certain result will mean that the unit has arrived.

 

Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described late.

 

When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless it's deep stiking or outflanking).

If you wish to use this 'deep strike' option, then the units in question must begin the game in reserve(even if you are playing a special mission where the 'reserves' special rule is not being used). Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows.

Notice when the words deploy, leave in reserve, and arrive are used?You make the choice to Combat Squad a unit when you are deploying it.

If you choose to use reserves, you do not deploy it but instead leave it in reserves.

While the unit is in reserves, it may not be Combat Squaded because you have not yet deployed it.

When the unit arrives from reserves, you then deploy it - making the decision to combat squad it at that time.

Get it?

[thade]

Here's another way to look at it.

 

When you put the models into play, the unit can be broken into Combat Squads; not before. Units in Reserves are not yet in play.

[angry man]

the answer to the FAQ question says quite clearly that a unit that is placed in reserve may not combat squad. the answer places no restrictions or conditions other than that it is referring to a squad that is left in reserve. transports are not a requirement to making this FAQ answer relevant...

 

squads that are placed in reserve may

not break down into combat squads

 

AM

as i understand it, a unit that is reserved cannot combat squad, ever. maybe there is another way to interpret the Space marine FAQ though?

Yeah, the squad may never combat squad after having been placed in reserve...ever...never agin. Not even in a new game, not even if you sell them to your mate. These models have been marked for life and if anyone ever tries to combat squad them a GW Rules Lawyer will visit your house with two Rules Goons and "breaka your kneecaps". Just go out a buy a new squad box if you ever want to combat squad ever again...

/sarcasm

Right? Because it doesn't give a time limit on the prohibition against combat squading there must not be a time limit? :whistling:

good one. [...] edited

 

Get it?

no, not really. [...] edited

 

i just feel that if the FAQ had meant for you to be able to combat squad upon arrival of reserves, its answer would have been something along the lines of "whilst in reserve, squads may not combat squad." or "reserved squads may not combat squad until arrival"

 

[...] edited

 

AM

[SeattleDV8]

[...] edited

 

i just feel that if the FAQ had meant for you to be able to combat squad upon arrival of reserves, its answer would have been something along the lines of "whilst in reserve, squads may not combat squad." or "reserved squads may not combat squad until arrival"

They did that by using the wording 'when deployed' .

It was the way you think it works in the Dark Angel codex during 4th ed.

DA:Codex page 23

Units held in reserve cannot be split into combat squads and vice versa

But this line was removed by errata in 5th ed.

Seems very silly to remove a rule by errata and then reinstate it by FAQ.

Which they didn't do, Units in reserve are 'not deployed' and so may not combat squad at that time.

Units that make their reserve roll are then deployed and can combat squad at that time.

[Isiah]

Hmmm some of you need to cool your jets. Various posts edited of what was some pretty juvenile material. Keep it clean gents and cut the sarcasm and personal remarks, or if you can't, then just don't bother posting.