i have just finished re-reading Battle the Abyss

[Lord Munkrunky]

In general BftA is actually well encapsulated slice of heresy action and should be seen for what is, a massive "sink the bismarck!" precursor to Dan Abnett's MEGA PUNCH UP on Calth, "Know no fear"

 

I think the reason everyone originally disliked it so is because by Book 8 the reader's patience had worn very thin and they wanted to get back to the chronological main story again. The first 3 books were about the same thing in an analogue timeline, the books 4 & 5 were about the same thing from different backgrounds and progressed it on again. Then came book 6 which halted the progression entirely and went off on a jarring tangent about knights and jungles and weird jawas in the shadows (if you're not ensconced in Dark Angel lore then it is difficult to penetrate quite what is going on until the last 50 pages) then book 7 (Legion) redeemed interest levels by being very good indeed even thiough it wasn't about the same story arc. so when book 8 came along I, for one, was thinking about the series "thats all very interesting but what happens next IN THE ACTUAL STORY? aha here we go lets find out!......oh" - instead there before me was presented another book about another seemingly side plot issue, the over elaborate occupying of the biggest loyalist force by a Deathyish Star. Therefore i thought it was rubbish and viewed it narrowmindedly negatively because of this.

 

If a new HH author called Aaron Dembski-Bowden had written it we would all have slaughtered him probably, however look at him now - deified status (on this forum at least!) all because The First Heretic returned to the general main story (and of course was brilliant) but he has only written one book don't forget! And also don't forget Ben Counter did write Galaxy in Flames. Therefore i think we should bring him back from whatever Deathworld he has been banished in exile to, N'est pas?

 

That's my 12 pence

[malika666]

Hmm, it's not so much the reader patience thing, but rather that it was just really bad.

 

Word Bearers were nothing more than sunday morning cartoon villains, the loyalists were very bland and boring, it was just bolter-pr0n, which to me is rather boring! Two dimensional characters, no real character development or interesting plot.

[DIDM]

I finished it yesterday and I enjoyed it.

 

 

 

especially

 

 

The ending with Brynngar in the reactor was simply amazing to me. The story really hit home and I may have even teared up a bit, when he went home to chase the orca.

 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I can provide the pitchforks if someone else has the torches.

[Lord Munkrunky]

whoa there don't chase me up the windmill just yet.

 

what i mean is that the opinions THEN were "this book is just bang crash aarrgghh!" with little or no character, read it again! its actually a lot more interestin than you think as it fits into the series better now we have more background story to enlarge the 30k universe. There are a multitude of strands going on in the Heresy TALE this embellishes one of them.

 

Also A D-B HAS only written one book so far (albeit great) it used to be that Dan Abnett followed by Graham Mcneill could do no wrong in the eyes of this forum yet now are thought of as lesser HH authors as their novels are of variable standards (allegedly)

 

pLUS ALL the books have got gore ridden head exploding "bolter pawn" in them at some point - otherwise you wouldn't be reading them

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I can provide the pitchforks if someone else has the torches.

 

Deal.

 

WLK

[Saa]

I can provide the pitchforks if someone else has the torches.

 

i have a selection of flammable fluids AND a wicker man........just say the word dude........

 

 

 

only time ive ever hated my beloved Word Bearers.......sigh

 

Also A D-B HAS only written one book so far (albeit great) it used to be that Dan Abnett followed by Graham Mcneill could do no wrong in the eyes of this forum yet now are thought of as lesser HH authors as their novels are of variable standards (allegedly)

 

*cringe* ok the A D-B fan boyism here bugs me a little but back down a little fella. he's actually a great writer and I suggest you read the NL books before you call him out for writing only one good book. BftA is a bad book....written badly....with badly portrayed characters....a boring plot and a predictable conclusion.

 

Saa

[Brother Ambroz]

ADB has written one book in the HH series but he's written alot more than just that altogether. Personally I didn't mind Battle for the Abyss except for what others have already mentioned. The Word Bearers were just mustache twirling villians unable to do anything of import. I mean that's cool and all if you're writing for little kids but this is the HH. Usually in these types of situations where an author bashes a faction I like, I just pretend it's not them. :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

We originally disliked BftA because it was a bad book. It remains a bad book and so we continue to dislike it. :P

;)

 

It is not what the story is about that is the problem, it is the way it was written. It was written for young people. There is nothing wrong with books written for young people. But as the HH series already opened with the magnificent Horus Rising, and the less magnificent False Gods and Galaxy in Flames, having a book like BftA was completely inappropriate, as the others were "mature".

 

Much like the Dark Angels duology, BftA adds nothing to the HH series. I thought the DA books were okay, and I am partial to the Lion and the 1st Legion, but really, they could have as easily been a 40K book. Remember, once your Legion has its day in the sun, you will be lucky to have another whirl at it.

I like how the Imperial Fists have been handled [especially as they are 'due' a book], and likewise the Thousand Sons. But if the World Eaters and/or the Iron Warriors [my two other fave Legions] got books like the DA did, well, I'd be sad faced.

 

I don't think A D-B has been deified because of TFH. Helsreach is a very good book and very well loved by a faction whose fluff doesn't match the amount of quality love they get as miniatures. The Night Lords books have struck a cord with faction fans, who are relieved that their baddies are not treated as goons.

 

The love for TFH was not simply because it returned to "the real stuff" or whatever you want to call it. But it was actually a very good book, and is another book where the protagonists, the Word Bearers, don't look like buffoons because we, the majority Imperial players, need some suckers to smoke with our Bolters. Lorgar [to where I have read] seems real to me. Like Abnett reversed my 20ish years of hating Horus and thinking him a jerk, A D-B has made someone who started it all, normal. No mean feat.

 

So, I guess I don't agree with you at all :P

 

*nods to WLK for a pitch fork*

:no:

[sponsra]

Well, I started a thread just like this when I re-read BftA. I remebered it as horrible, but after the re-read I upgraded it to ok. But since I had VERY low expectations the second time I might have overrated it... And now with some perspective, and after re-reading Mechanicum and A thousand sons I popped it back dwn to "bad"...

 

pLUS ALL the books have got gore ridden head exploding "bolter pawn" in them at some point - otherwise you wouldn't be reading them

 

No. Those are always the most boring and pointless parts.

[Lord Munkrunky]

I don't think i ever said AD-B wasn't any good i meant that he has only written one great novel (plus a great and revelatory short story) in this series so far, everyone needs to calm down! the more good writers the merrier i reckon.

 

However,

 

I can see all of your points, so Hooray for prose about monastic chanting in dark corridors and now I'm going to go and hang out with my old chum Rylanor in a secret hangar where i will immediatly commence re-reading First Heretic and recondition my opinions as set out in your Codex Literatum.

 

spoiler!!

 

 

btw was the hangar searching Dreadnought strand just a red herring after all? or do you think that is how Malcador, Garro et al was contacted about turning up to look for survivors (re: revelatory events in audiobook legion of one)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

*throws pitchfork at Willie*

 

if you continue having well thought out, non-ego enhancing posts, i'm going to report you as a pod person.

 

WLK

[Zincite]

I tried twice, and neither time finished it. Little interaction with the characters, confusing plot and combat (I didn't get where the Thousand Son came from...) and, as others have mentioned, villains that make you wait for the "I'd have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling kids!" line.

 

I don't think A D-B has been deified because of TFH.

I actually think it's his worst work compared to his other books. Still good, but nowhere near the rest.

 

And I liked Decent of Angels. :down:

[eyeslikethunder]

nope its still bad

 

ok if all you want is action wham bam

[Legatus]

I have not yet read any of the Horus Heresy books (well, I have read half of the short stories in "Age of Darkness"), but of all of them, the plot of "Battle for the Abyss" sounded the most intriguing. It is the uncertain period right before the Heresy will break, and a small isolated group of Marines notices that super battleship heading for Macragge, unannounced. They follow it and eventually have to intercept it. Sounds well enough.

 

I have the suspicion that any involvement of the Primarchs will awe the readers and give a novel the feeling of gravitas. The lack of Primarch involvement in "Battle for the Abyss" is thus mainly responsible for making it feel unimportant. Well, had this battleship arrived at Macragge, the Word bearers could have defeated the Ultramarines there, putting the Imperium in a very bad place. The events in "Battle for the Abyss" therefor do have a certain importance. The hunt for the Bismarck is perhaps not a bad analogy. What had happened in "Legion", really?

[Brother Ambroz]

Legatus you're right this book could have been decent but really it's the way it was written. I actually read it all the way and as a stand alone novel it's slightly below par and as a HH novel it's something else entirely. You'll see if you ever read it.

[Saa]

I have the suspicion that any involvement of the Primarchs will awe the readers and give a novel the feeling of gravitas. The lack of Primarch involvement in "Battle for the Abyss" is thus mainly responsible for making it feel unimportant.

 

It's really not the case though Legatus. The lack of Primarch involvement has nothing to do with it to my mind.

 

The main problem is that it caricatures every marine involved slamming every stereotype of their respective legions in your face. The SW is a brawling drunkard, the UM is everything Matt Ward says they are, the 1k Son is a sorcery wielding wizard, the WE is a snarling frothing maniac and the WB might as well all have pencil thin moustaches and shout 'Mwahahahahahahahahahaha......just as planned'.

 

So the fact that the book is just pewpew dakka dakka bolter porn, that the characters are so 1 dimensional and the wasted potential of this story given the historic implications within the heresy, I would go so far as to call the book a travesty :D

 

Saa

[Legatus]

The main problem is that it caricatures every marine involved slamming every stereotype of their respective legions in your face. The SW is a brawling drunkard, the UM is everything Matt Ward says they are, the 1k Son is a sorcery wielding wizard, the WE is a snarling frothing maniac and the WB might as well all have pencil thin moustaches and shout 'Mwahahahahahahahahahaha......just as planned'.

Considering what we usually get passed off as "Ultramarines" in the novels, that doesn't sound so bad. ;)

[Watch-commander Albus]

Because I have lurked on these forums for quite some while, I avoided reading Battle for the Abyss for quite a while. I read it finally last month though. It was OK, but nothing more than that. My expectations were so low I guess, that the bad writing did not bother me that much.

 

But still, I think it is the worst book of the series:

* After page 20 or so, you could predict everything that was going to happen next.

* The characters were shallow and parodies of stereotypes of clichés. The Ultramarines were all paragons of virtue, the Space Wolf was the noble barbarian, the Thousand Son was the secretive sorcerer, ...

* The action scenes were confusing and boring. Men turned up from nowhere and it is often hard to follow what is going on.

 

This book is bad, it reads worse than the **** I write for our Deathwatch RPG group.

[A D-B]

And now, to begin treading carefully.

 

In general BftA is actually well encapsulated slice of heresy action and should be seen for what is, a massive "sink the bismarck!" precursor to Dan Abnett's MEGA PUNCH UP on Calth, "Know no fear"

 

There's nothing wrong with the concept behind Battle for the Abyss. Few people ever seem to object to the core idea.

 

I think the reason everyone originally disliked it so is because by Book 8 the reader's patience had worn very thin and they wanted to get back to the chronological main story again.

 

I think you're wrong. Firstly, I think you're wrong because you're speaking for everyone ("the readers") yet not using the opinions listed on every forum and review about the book itself. They all say why they did or didn't like it; you don't need to guess and put conjecture in their mouths. And based on evidence of hundreds of reviews and forum posts, and crazy-long discussions about it with readers and other authors, it's not that the readers' patience was stretched because of the main storyline. That's an accusation actually leveled at several novels, and few of those suffer to the same degree (if at all) as Battle for the Abyss.

 

Battle for the Abyss chose a specific path. It chose to make its characters certain 'iconic' examples of their respective Legions, and - as several people have said - it's been interpreted in reviews and opinions as shallow and/or written for a younger audience (as a chunk of older BL stuff used to be). I'm not leveling any abuse against it (I even think it's interesting that the author chose that path, if it was indeed a choice), but I don't expect we'll see it much again.

 

If a new HH author called Aaron Dembski-Bowden had written it we would all have slaughtered him probably, however look at him now - deified status (on this forum at least!) all because The First Heretic returned to the general main story (and of course was brilliant) but he has only written one book don't forget! And also don't forget Ben Counter did write Galaxy in Flames.

 

Where Battle for the Abyss was concerned, yes, if I'd written it I'd likely be slaughtered in public opinion and almost certainly would've been subsequently uninvited from the Horus Heresy team. I have to say, in all honesty, I wouldn't have taken that treatment as an injustice, either.

 

And bear in mind I've written five novels, and was invited onto the HH team before my first novel was even published. In that context, "New to the team" doesn't mean anything in the sense you seem to be implying, when there are four other novels speaking for my track record.

 

As for Galaxy in Flames... Galaxy in Flames would have had to try very, very hard to fail, given its predetermined content. I will never take anyone seriously if they try to tell me with a straight face that the quality of prose in Galaxy in Flames is the equal of Horus Rising or False Gods. Conversely, it's about one of the most amazing parts of the canon, and the most previously developed. Unless it was written absolutely terribly, it was always going to get something of a free pass. The reviews on Amazon and the blogosphere make it abundantly clear that a lot of its great reception is indeed down to that factor. With that much information revealed, about such a key topic, it scarcely matters how it's written. Good enough was good enough. It's a truth in all media, be it a movie, book, play, whatever.

 

Incidentally, I have never, even once - across countless reviews and opinions - seen The First Heretic praised "all because it returned to the main story". A Thousand Sons had already returned to the main story, as had - to a lesser degree - Nemesis. TFH certainly had elements of "main storyline" (whatever that really is) in it, but it's actually completely out of sequence. It has the same feel as the original trilogy (I liked that feel, which was why I wanted TFH to have it) but even so, saying I was "deified" (look that word up, chief) because it returned to the main storyline is an unfair and incorrect accusation.

[Yogi]

If this was the Imperium and Lord Munkrunky compared compared Counter to Bowden in my presence he would be immediately turned into to a servitor for heresy most foul.

[Lord Munkrunky]

dei·fied, dei·fy·ing, dei·fies

1. To make a god of; raise to the condition of a god.

2. To worship or revere as a god: deify a leader.

3. To idealize; exalt: deifying success.

 

Yep.. thats what i meant, you're the new Dan Abnett.

 

i must say Mr D-B, you argue very well and you are right on many points, i am very much the exact opposite.

However

Now i don't know what Mr Counter did at the BL christmas party, maybe made fun of David Mustaine or wee'd in the trifle but i think you might be being a bit too grumpy about his ability to tell a tale.

.I certainly couldn't even begin to imagine how you would write a novel of such grandeur and importance as indeed you have (more than once of course, i was a bit drunk during my previous post and meant to say it was your first book in the Horus Heresy series - Is there a rule about not posting whilst intoxicated?) but how can you be so derisory of a fellow author? Galaxy in Flames isn't just a book that could write itself, thats a bit harsh. Ben Counter managed to convey real tension and hopelessness of Istvaan 3, he created the biggest emotional hook of the series (so far) with the 'demise' of Garviel Loken. Something which allegedly went against the BL Master Plot and, as a result, seemingly marked his card for penal legion duty early on?

 

I do very strongly apologise to all on here for assuming i spoke for all readers, that was out of order and egotistical of me so sorry for being a twad. i, personally,me, the Lord Munkrunky, blame the interminable wait for the next novel as to why the starving dogs snap at each other.

[A D-B]

Now i don't know what Mr Counter did at the BL christmas party, maybe made fun of David Mustaine or wee'd in the trifle but i think you might be being a bit too grumpy about his ability to tell a tale.

 

Actually, I was pretty careful; I avoided any mention of my opinions about his abilities as a writer.

[MagicMan]

Galaxy in Flames was great, i really enjoyed it.

 

 

Honestly when i read the first three books i didn't even glance at the author apart from seeing Dan Abnett on the first one, and i didnt realise he hadn't written them all.

 

 

 

But Battle for the Abyss just seemed... Well, shallow really. Especially bits like Bryngaar throwing his squad mates around the room while drunk, and moustache twirling World Eaters who demand one miiiillllion dollllars, muhahahah.

 

Skraal was pretty cool, but thats about it.

[Vazzy]

To be honest, I've enjoyed every single HH book. Granted, some may not have been amazing, I feel like every single one contributed in some way. But that's just my opinion.:/