*Furyou Miko Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 So... we hear over and over again that Grey Knights Never Fall... meaning that no Grey Knight has ever turned to Chaos. What, then, is so special about Crowe being able to wield his daemonblade? He constantly worries about falling because of it! I Grey Knights were really Incorruptible, Crowe would wield the daemonblade with impunity and slaughter his way across the Eye of Terror. Here's my pet theory. Grey Knights are not immune to the temptations of Chaos. They're just very, very good at spotting the earliest signs (EG: thinking), and immediately destroy any suspected Brothers. Crowe gets special mention because he really is that badass... and no Grey Knight ever falls because they're already dead by the time they concieve of turning their coats. (Besides, Daemonifuge has Grey Knights working for Chaos: They try to kill Ephrael Stern! This is a confirmed Chaos goal!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 There is Draigo who is fighting in the Warp, according the new canon. :) And Purifiers in general are supposed the most resolute against corruption. GK aren't technically immune to falling; really, I don't suspect anybody is. I think you're probably spot on that the chapter designed and trained specifically to burn out demonic influence is probably flawless in their ability to burn it out of their own ranks. So, what few fall probably do not survive long. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2900848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Only possible way i'd see a knight falling is if was to malall. And even then its so far fetched you would have to go from here to jupiter in a wall of text to explain every detail of why it would happen and so forth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2900859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 So... we hear over and over again that Grey Knights Never Fall... meaning that no Grey Knight has ever turned to Chaos. What, then, is so special about Crowe being able to wield his daemonblade? He constantly worries about falling because of it! I Grey Knights were really Incorruptible, Crowe would wield the daemonblade with impunity and slaughter his way across the Eye of Terror. Here's my pet theory. Grey Knights are not immune to the temptations of Chaos. They're just very, very good at spotting the earliest signs (EG: thinking), and immediately destroy any suspected Brothers. Crowe gets special mention because he really is that badass... and no Grey Knight ever falls because they're already dead by the time they concieve of turning their coats. (Besides, Daemonifuge has Grey Knights working for Chaos: They try to kill Ephrael Stern! This is a confirmed Chaos goal!) The IC's in the ordo militant have some odd habits, I would not be surprised if Crowe keeps banging the horns back into his head every now and again, no one has figured that daemonblade of his out which is a bit of a worry. Draigo has been captured by the warp. Sure the dark gods are not happy about him being there but what use is he to the Grey Knights and can they trust him every time he pops out of the warp, how come the GK have better daemon weapons; suppposedly gifts from the dark gods, than the daemons? If it was Imperial Fists, Blood Angels or Space Wolves who had all this going on an extirminatus would be long overdue. I dont buy into the incorruptible story either, for true faith and strength of character to exist, and the grey knights certainly do have true faith, there must be a choice at some point. Crowe, Draigo are examples of this they could turn at anytime but they dont. As to lesser GK who might think about turning there is always mind wipe Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2900947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 Oh, I'm fairly sure Draigo is an Agent of the Changer through and through at this point. How the hell else does a guy who's trapped in the warp and can only pop up in realspace in times of great crisis end up being made Chapter Master? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2900960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshrug Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Oh, I'm fairly sure Draigo is an Agent of the Changer through and through at this point. How the hell else does a guy who's trapped in the warp and can only pop up in realspace in times of great crisis end up being made Chapter Master? I believe the answer to that question is "Matt Ward, that's how." -Stormshrug Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2900964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
confused_gordy Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 He was master before becoming trapped in the warp, not afterwards. The reason the Gk still accept him when he does show up, is that he ends up kicking ass and achieving the goals the GK had, when they arrived to begin with. He is like the Legion of the damned for GK. It isn't so far fetched to imagining that a GK trapped in the warp, would absorb some of that 'not quite real' essence into himself, becoming a bigger scarier version of what he started as. I think the Draigo fluff is great. Its a fantastic tragedy, he is the best at what he does, yet everything he does is meaningless, and he cant stop doing it, because then he would truly be damned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2900971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 No... he was trapped in the warp before he made Captain, or whatever the damn rank is, during his "heroic little guy taking a stand against the daemon prince" shtick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2900979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
confused_gordy Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 799.M41 - First time he beats M'kar and becomes justicar. 901.M41 - Chapter lord dies, Draigo carves name in Mortarions heart, and is made next chapter lord. 999.M41 - Second time he beats M'kar and gets trapped in the warp. He was chapter lord for almost 100 years before getting lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2900989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
confused_gordy Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Interestingly enough that would suggest that the second to last paragraph of Draigo's fluff is set in M42. Warhammer 41000 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2900991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espada Azul Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 I do recall a throwaway mention in the Purifiers section (don't quote me, I'm at work and I don't have the Codex on hand) about battle brothers who just disappear/are no longer seen again if they fail the initiation to that brotherhood. There's something dubious about that, especially among the supposedly incorruptible Grey Knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 I do recall a throwaway mention in the Purifiers section (don't quote me, I'm at work and I don't have the Codex on hand) about battle brothers who just disappear/are no longer seen again if they fail the initiation to that brotherhood. There's something dubious about that, especially among the supposedly incorruptible Grey Knights. Throw in Mind Wipe and you have your answer Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Ask yourself this - why would any Grey Knight ever turn to Chaos? It's easy to say it could happen but then again anything could happen. Grey Knights have no reason to ever turn. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 ... no reason to ever turn? Grey Knights have as much - or more - reason to turn as any Marine. What tempts Marines to chaos? Bitterness. Resentment. Enforced submission. If a Grey Knight is passed over for promotion every time, if he feels that his works are never appreciated, if he finds that his superiors' orders are preventing him from fightining evil in the way he feels is best... Chaos has a way in. Or, if, you know, he gets caught with his aegis down one day, bam, instant daemon posession. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIDM Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 ... no reason to ever turn? Grey Knights have as much - or more - reason to turn as any Marine. What tempts Marines to chaos? Bitterness. Resentment. Enforced submission. If a Grey Knight is passed over for promotion every time, if he feels that his works are never appreciated, if he finds that his superiors' orders are preventing him from fightining evil in the way he feels is best... Chaos has a way in. Or, if, you know, he gets caught with his aegis down one day, bam, instant daemon posession. yet never once has one turned, so IF is not very probable Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Yeah none of those are good reasons or it would have already happened by now. Think about it. There is even a Black Library novel about a Grey Knight stranded on a chaos world - he doesn't turn and is accepted back into the fold by his chapter after he escapes. I think his name is Alaric. G :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 I think the point is that it's possible that it has happened (or been in danger of happening), and we don't know about it because the Grey Knights could instantly snuff out any trace of corruption in their midst. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 It's a nice thought. Would GW go there? I doubt it. It's as likely as the Sistershoods suddenly giving up their duties and declaring they're all Nihilists. If someone wanted to go there with their own DIY chapter then I'd be alright with it. This game should be about developing your own ideas. Just don't fool yourself or others into believing it's canonical material. ... What tempts Marines to chaos? Bitterness. Resentment. Enforced submission. If a Grey Knight is passed over for promotion every time, if he feels that his works are never appreciated, if he finds that his superiors' orders are preventing him from fightining evil in the way he feels is best... Chaos has a way in. What the..? These guys aren't disenfranchised office workers ya know? The chapter is extremely pragmatic in it's approach, with an ingrained sense of loyalty that goes beyond self-interest. If an individual is not worthy of a promotion yet there's going to be a logical reason for it. (Besides, Daemonifuge has Grey Knights working for Chaos: They try to kill Ephrael Stern! This is a confirmed Chaos goal!) You mean the boltgun-armed stool pigeons in aquila armour? Fraudulent cusswit wannabes. Either treat them like such or know those 'Grey Knights' have long been retconned along with the rest of that garbage. EDIT - Grammar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 >> Valerias managed not to miss the point. Oiad - just because they fight evil daemons instead of evil paperclips doesn't make Marines or GKs any less vulnerable to having souls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Never said they didn't have one. I just don't think they're as prone to corruption as some would like. Purity has become one of the GKs defining traits and it isn't one you can easily go back to if you decide to break it. Lots of people like the cheesy 'good-guy-turned-bad' scenario and in the grimdark of 40k its always a possibility. However, in this exceptional incidence I don't think GW will go through with it. Maybe if they ever play out in an end-game scenario, or if they feel it's time to shake things up by hiring someone more controversial than Matt Ward to write the codices. Until then it's a subject for disgruntled fanfictioners who hate the whole purity thing. I do recall a throwaway mention in the Purifiers section (don't quote me, I'm at work and I don't have the Codex on hand) about battle brothers who just disappear/are no longer seen again if they fail the initiation to that brotherhood. There's something dubious about that, especially among the supposedly incorruptible Grey Knights. Sounds like you're referring to the part about neophytes snooping around the Chambers of Purity; A lesson to newbies who are too nosy... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Many things could have happened but if we don't know about it then that is only speculation and as stated anything is possible. Like I said before why would any Grey Knight ever want to turn to Chaos is beyond me. They are at the top of the food chain in just about every way. G :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 The thing is that this is a psyker chapter the whole chapter is united in one mind, each knows the other. Yes its possible during initiation weaknesses are discovered, I mentioned mind wipe in that respect. Once you become a battle brother you are united in mind, corruption becomes impossible and a taint is absolutely impossible to conceal. You are a grey knight and you are unable to break that link with your brothers, thats about as fluffy as you can get. Other chapters have resisted chaos too its not an exceptional trait but to be so close to chaos and not turn thats the exception in the Grey Knights case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Well said. The brotherhood of psykers is basically an insurance policy versus corruption. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2901370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Kyrie Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I'm sure I'll get declared a heretic for this, but after the last codex it wouldn't surprise me if the next one revealed that the whole chapter has been Chaos for quite some time. They have a guy running around in the warp, they've got a guy wielding a deamonblade, they now openly use sorcery, there's that thing about covering themselves in innocent blood to hide from Khorne (!?!), and they kill or mind-wipe anyone who sees them. Sounds pretty Chaos to me... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2905833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 The Edict of Nikea banned Sorcery, but it - much like any government - the powers-that-be (in this case, the Emperor himself) may have listed the Grey Knights themselves as the lone exceptions to that rule. The least susceptible to the ruinous powers are the GK, and they are a useful tool (any Librarian will tell you that). How or why (or even if) sorcery differs from psychic powers I haven't yet seen, but my impression is that sorcery is a more potent (and thus, more dangerous) method of wielding warp powers. So dangerous that they are banned and - really - the kind of stuff that would seem creepy and wrong to many. Examples being smearing the blood of pious virgins on your pretty armor, wielding a martyr's hip bone as a weapon, or wielding a sword that encases a very angry warp entity. If any lesser individual tried one of these methods to gain an advantage, the risk of them falling to chaos or being utterly destroyed is very, very great. Not so for the Grey Knights. That's an advantage of having the Emperor's own gene seed within you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/#findComment-2905841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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