Something Wycked Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 What tempts Marines to chaos? Bitterness. Resentment. Enforced submission. If a Grey Knight is passed over for promotion every time, if he feels that his works are never appreciated, if he finds that his superiors' orders are preventing him from fightining evil in the way he feels is best... Chaos has a way in. Or, if, you know, he gets caught with his aegis down one day, bam, instant daemon posession. The new codex states that the GK are instilled with such purity that they would taste absolutely disgusting to a daemon, and so are therefore protected from all but the most powerful. When it comes to the most powerful daemons, that is what The Aegis is for. Even though they are old books, the Grey Knight Omnibus with Justicar Alaric highlights this. In the third book when Alaric is on a daemon world devoted to Khorne, he is fitted with a collar of Khorne (forget the exact name of it) that removes Alaric's psychic defenses. And he falls. He lets go and gives in to his bloodthirsty impulses and becomes a gladiator worthy of Khorne. Not immediately, and not without struggle, but he falls without his psychic defenses. Later, he regains control of himself and reasserts himself as a devoted Grey Knight and servant of the Emperor, doing the necessary heroic deeds on the planet and later he passes months of tests by the Inquisition to ascertain his purity. So yeah. The Aegis. Basically as long as a Grey Knight is protected by it, he will not fall, especially when it is combined with all of their indoctrination and iron will. They don't fear daemons or death- they fear corruption and falling to chaos. Part of their beliefs is that all the dead Grey Knights will fight at the side of the Emperor at the time of the Final Battle, so they have immortality as long as they remain pure, and the costant fear of falling to chaos keeps every GK focused on his purity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2905853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 That's a lovely essay about the Aegis, but I did specifically say "caught with his aegis down". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2905908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 You did. I tried to mention (but failed) that its always up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2905944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 When it comes to the difference between psykers and sorcerors, sorcery is a lot more ritualistic, and almost always involves directly working with Chaos, Daemons, etc. Plus, sorcery can be done by non-psykers; all it really takes is knowing the right rituals and how to please some daemonic patron. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2906006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 You did. I tried to mention (but failed) that its always up ^_^ It's a suit. Even Grey Knights need to bathe occasionally. At least, I hope they do. Oh, god. >< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2906154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 You did. I tried to mention (but failed) that its always up ^_^ It's a suit. Even Grey Knights need to bathe occasionally. At least, I hope they do. Oh, god. >< A couple centuries of near-constant battle in the same suit of armor, without ever bathing? The stench would be enough to make a Plaguebearer cry! Plus, odds are that armor is going to need regular maintenance, not to mention repairwork after major battles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2906157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Annüss Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The Aegis is also a "halo of protective wards" formed by the GK psychic powers. This is part of the reason they can handle forbidden artifacts and read blasphemous tomes. It's not just armor that protests the GK from the Daemonic, it's their very purity and strength of will. They don't fall, never have, never will, and that's why I like them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2906197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 It was always a special undersuit before. >> I guess I'm just too cynical to believe that any group of people can be like that. Individuals, sure, but... Anyway, apparently Alaric fell, so.. heh. I wouldn't call that an old book though. :) It's only, what, five years old? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2906256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Psychic is of the mind, psyche, so any powers that are psychic powers are inherent within the being casting the spell. Sorcery is magic with the aid of 'spirits'. All psykers could use sorcery but not all sorcerers could be psykers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2906258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Annüss Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The Aegis is also their armor. It's a mix of mental, spiritual and physical protection. That's how I read it anyway and it's why the Aegis is never "down", it's a part of the GK. I get being cynical about a group being this pure but that's what attracts me to this army. It's nice to see at least one faction stand incorruptible. I've played the bad guys(chaos) and the shady good guys(DA, Relicters), now I want the true good guys. It's a nice change of pace for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2906493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Two. >> Sisters are 'incorruptible' too, only the fans are a lot less willing to accept this for some reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2906500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Two. >> Sisters are 'incorruptible' too, only the fans are a lot less willing to accept this for some reason. Because Nun-fetishists like the idea of Slaaneshi Sisters? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2906575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Whenever I see people trying to justify things like evil grey knights I always feel like making good daemon and making up the most horrible explination to why they're good just to prove a point. If you want to play a chaos counts as GK army just say so, no need to explain yourself and try to justify it with fluff. If anyone asks just go "This is the army I wanted to make and it has nothing to do with any of the story of the 40k universe but its a completely legal army." Its not that hard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2906646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Alaric didn't fall. In fact he eventually overthrew the Chaos world was accepted back into his fold with open arms. G <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2906730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Daemons are emotions made manifest. The daemons we see aren't the only daemons out there, but they are the only ones who want to fight anything. The Trust daemon, or Love daemon, or any other good daemon wouldn't be fighting, hence no models or rules for non fighting things in a war game. The question of corruptibility is fair. The corruption to me would be a GK actively worshiping Khorne or Nurgle. Being affected by Khorne or Nurgle is not the same thing, using daemon weapons and sorcery is not the same thing, making pacts with daemons is not the same thing. They are treading a very fine line, but its not the same. No GK has ever fallen is true - none have turned to chaos. But if wanted a GK army that has been affected by chaos then why not? Imagine the Death Guard and Grey Knights - teh Death Guard turned to Nurgle after being infected by the god. They became bloated and worshipped Nurgle. The GK would suffer exactly the same symptoms but wouldn't worship nurgle as a result of it, sooner die than do that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2907402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Two. >> Sisters are 'incorruptible' too, only the fans are a lot less willing to accept this for some reason. Nope- they're "second only to the Grey Knights" but there are examples of corrupted Sisters. The Sisters of Battle codex in 2nd ed mentioned one. Daemonifuge has several. And then there's Cain's Last Stand (though these seem more "mindraped" than actually freewilled). Deathwatch Page 302 "No single Grey Knight has ever foresworn his vows and turned to serve those powers he was created to fight". This doesn't preclude them being executed, or suiciding, after developing mutations, or some other Chaos symptom. It simply means it's never reached the point where the Grey Knight foreswears his vows and chooses to serve Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2907461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 It was always a special undersuit before. >> Anyway, apparently Alaric fell, so.. heh. I wouldn't call that an old book though. -_- It's only, what, five years old? Thrall_Love has it right- Alaric was stripped of his armor and still had his Aegis. Until they put the Khornate anti-psyker collar on him. But yeah, its not old, its just written prior to the current codex. I mean, come on, the Grey Knights still have Chaplains in the books, but not in the codex :lol: Alaric didn't fall. In fact he eventually overthrew the Chaos world was accepted back into his fold with open arms. Yes, yes he did. He admits it to himself in his own thoughts in his moments of lucidity between his Khornate-esque "episodes" in the arenas. He has an excuse, though- see above about the collar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2907612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 They didn't have chaplains in the army list in the last codex either- which predated the novels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2907618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 If you want to believe Alarcic fell to Chaos that is fine. G :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2907665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 Two. >> Sisters are 'incorruptible' too, only the fans are a lot less willing to accept this for some reason. Nope- they're "second only to the Grey Knights" but there are examples of corrupted Sisters. The Sisters of Battle codex in 2nd ed mentioned one. Daemonifuge has several. And then there's Cain's Last Stand (though these seem more "mindraped" than actually freewilled). Deathwatch Page 302 "No single Grey Knight has ever foresworn his vows and turned to serve those powers he was created to fight". This doesn't preclude them being executed, or suiciding, after developing mutations, or some other Chaos symptom. It simply means it's never reached the point where the Grey Knight foreswears his vows and chooses to serve Chaos. So why is it that everyone jumps to defend Alaric's knowing and willing turn to Chaos, but a single Daemonette wearing a Sororitas' skin means that they're corruptible? The only corrupted Sister in Daemonifuge that I remember is the one Ephrael kills during her trial - and that wasn't a corrupted sister so much as a daemonette wearing her skin after she was killed. So, in summary, we have: Absolute Canon "No single Grey Knight has ever foresworn his vows and turned to serve those powers he was created to fight." - this rather fuzzily allows for Grey Knights who get executed before they can officially throw the towel in. "A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors." Black Library Canon One Grey Knight, Alaric, fell to Chaos and turned to Khorne. By sheer virtue of his Sueness, he was forgiven instead of killed and rejoined the Grey Knights. One Sister was possessed, and several more mind-beat into submission, with the mention of others fighting against Imperials for an unknown reason - they could have Fallen, they could have been tricked, or they could have just stolen the armour. Fanon/Completely non-Canon No Grey Knight has ever even thought about looking at an Imperial shrine funny, because they are awesome loyal men of absolute purity. Sisters are all just waiting to jump ship and start having evil, sexy nun-times with androgynous daemons and each other in the name of Slaanesh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2907669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 If you want to believe Alarcic fell to Chaos that is fine. Its not a matter of belief. It is documented by the narrator of the story relaying Alaric's thoughts to the reader :) If you want to parse the meaning of "fell," then that's another matter. Did he hide in his subconscious mind so that he did not actually fall, instead allowing his baser instincts to operate his body while his conscious mind was elsewhere? He surely didn't willingly give in to Chaos, but when you "wake up" standing on a pile of bodies and covered in blood in the middle of an arena bellowing a war cry to cheering human and daemonic spectators, or you "wake up" tasting blood and not knowing where it comes from, or any of the other occasions where Alaric "wakes up" from having lost control of himself... I call that falling. Black Library CanonOne Grey Knight, Alaric, fell to Chaos and turned to Khorne. By sheer virtue of his Sueness, he was forgiven instead of killed and rejoined the Grey Knights. Minor correction: he did not rejoin the Grey Knights- the story is left hanging at the end of his conversation with the Inquisitor he was working with who is hinting that Alaric could become an Inquisitor rather than rejoin his Grey Knight brothers. No definitive resolution was printed in the book. It was left open for a sequel, in my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2907704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 The only corrupted Sister in Daemonifuge that I remember is the one Ephrael kills during her trial - and that wasn't a corrupted sister so much as a daemonette wearing her skin after she was killed. It was a lump of "Chaos taint" rather than a daemonette that Ephrael ripped from the corrupted Sister. I was thinking more of, during the fight with the Keeper of Secrets- and the flashbacks to the creation of the Screaming Cage - there are a whole bunch of Sisters in Chaos-warped armour. Why is there this distinction between "absolute canon" and "Black Library canon"? Old codicies can be superseded by new material, and Black Library is just as canonical as other GW written materials. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2907771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 No, it's not. The Codices and rulebook are the 'absolute canon', but the Black Library stuff has been stated on several occasions not to be definitive, along with the material published in White Dwarf - as far as I know, only Index Astartes and Codex Approved material in WD is part of the 'core canon'. As for the daemonette - no, it was definitely a daemon. It was no 'blob of chaos taint', it had a face, a body - she grabbed it by the throat. What makes you say it was just a 'blob of taint' other than a perverse desire for Sisters to be corruptible? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2907780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 A D-B's post on "loose canon" here seems like a more realistic picture of how GW regards it: http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/ So, if a codex says that there were 10,000 men in each legion, but Black Library's Collected Visions says there were 100,000 (on average) then the more recent material is just as canonical, and possibly more so by virtue of being more recent. As for the daemonette - no, it was definitely a daemon. It was no 'blob of chaos taint', it had a face, a body - she grabbed it by the throat. What makes you say it was just a 'blob of taint' other than a perverse desire for Sisters to be corruptible? It looked to me to be almost shapeless, and smaller than a domestic cat. In the first episode, when she pulls it out of the Sister's chest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2907792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 Upon close examination, it is a fully-formed daemonic head with a short trail of viscera dangling beneath it. So she didn't just rip a daemon out of the Sister, she ripped a daemon's head out of her. Since the body was then incinerated, there's no way of telling how much more of it was daemon-possessed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240331-fallen-grey-knights/page/2/#findComment-2908037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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