Lord Kallozar Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Hey all! Just searching through some word bearers info on characters etc, I have found some hate for the word bearers dynamic duo:- Erebus and kor phaeron! So I just wanted to know why this is? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 What exactly do you mean by hate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amalricus Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 The nepotism behind Kor Phaeron’s ascension to the First Captaincy was no secret. As the primarch’s spiritual counsel and foster father during the years of Lorgar’s youth away from the Imperium, Kor Phaeron had helped shape the growing demigod in ways his true father had not. They stood together through the years of sacrifice and revolution, through the holy wars that threatened to tear Colchis apart before its unity under the benevolent rule of Lorgar. When the God-Emperor came to Colchis over a century before to offer Lorgar command of the XVII Legion, Kor Phaeron had been far too old to receive the organ implantations and prepubescent genetic manipulations necessary to grow into one of the Astartes. Instead, through rejuvenat surgery, costly bionics and limited gene-forging, Kor Phaeron was exalted above humanity as a sign of the value placed in him by the primarch. ( cfr. "First Heretic", book 14 of the Horus Heresy ) He is disliked by most of the Word Bearers due to his proeminent position in the legion, combined with his "non-astartes" condition, i guess the people who have read the book share that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 What he said for Kor.^ ! Erubus on the other hand was the man behind the fall of the warmaster to chaos and in turing a lot of the other legions with the chaplains of his legion being posted to the other fleets and the creation of the warriors lodges or there counterparts. He also seem's to have pissed off Argal Tal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 ^ There's also the less than sublte implication that Kor Phaeron, Erebus, Sor Bakphal and the rest may have been responsible for originally swaying the Word Bearers towards Chaos worship, and are therefore directly responsible for the corruption of the other Traitor Legions too. In that regard, they are to some degree responsible for the evils of both the Long War and the present day Imperium (which has, ironically, degenerated into precisely the opposite of what the Emperor seems to have intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 ^ There's also the less than sublte implication that Kor Phaeron, Erebus, Sor Bakphal and the rest may have been responsible for originally swaying the Word Bearers towards Chaos worship, and are therefore directly responsible for the corruption of the other Traitor Legions too. In that regard, they are to some degree responsible for the evils of both the Long War and the present day Imperium (which has, ironically, degenerated into precisely the opposite of what the Emperor seems to have intended). Um, have you read First Heretic? It's not exactly "subtle implication", it's outright stated that Erebus and Kor Phaeron were the ones to turn Lorgar to Chaos-worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 ^ There's also the less than sublte implication that Kor Phaeron, Erebus, Sor Bakphal and the rest may have been responsible for originally swaying the Word Bearers towards Chaos worship, and are therefore directly responsible for the corruption of the other Traitor Legions too. In that regard, they are to some degree responsible for the evils of both the Long War and the present day Imperium (which has, ironically, degenerated into precisely the opposite of what the Emperor seems to have intended). Um, have you read First Heretic? It's not exactly "subtle implication", it's outright stated that Erebus and Kor Phaeron were the ones to turn Lorgar to Chaos-worship. Which we have known ever since the Word Bearer IA when it first was printed in White Dwarf ages and ages ago. Now personally my dislike for the characters stems more from how they are depicted in "current era" in the Dark Apostle novels. As angsty backstabbing children who sacrifices large parts of the Legion for no good reason. Same goes for Jarulek. In the IA all of them are shown as pretty badass warlords who while they would, and did, sacrifice millions upon millions of normal humans and cultists will still go to lengths to not lose more Astartes than absolutely necessarily. That's what I liked about them. Back when the Word Bearers were a unified Legion without infighting and instead joined and bonded in religious worship, which set them apart from all the other Legions who had internal fighting. Alas, here I am, stuck with what we have now. <_< TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 A lot of Loyalist fans hate them for their part in the Heresy (surprise, surprise), especially Erebus. hear no Erebus bashing from me. He's the boss :) Kor Phaeron on the other hand annoys me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saa Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Now personally my dislike for the characters stems more from how they are depicted in "current era" in the Dark Apostle novels. As angsty backstabbing children who sacrifices large parts of the Legion for no good reason. Whilst I'm inclined to agree with this statement, I salve my ire by acknowledging that this is just one authors interpretations of The Dark Council. If they were all as angsty as portrayed in the WB trilogy then they wouldn't have survived as the most organised and structurely sound chaos legion for 10,000 years (cue supporters of the Black Legion......). Personally I love both Erebus and Kor Phaeron. I see Kor Phaeron as a 'Grandfather figure' within the legion. Overseeing the worship of chaos in an almost paternal manner. Happy in the knowledge that his 'children' are on the true path and that he had the foresight and wisdom to guide them all down this road. Erebus however is the true face of chaos. The dark manipulator, pulling strings and weaving plans. He's the arch traitor and to my mind one of the most fascinating characters in the entire mythos. I would sacrifice a whole swathe of the galaxy if I could read a book in the HH series entitled simply 'Erebus' filled with his villains exposition. Heh, I just like cool bad guys :D Saa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Erebus is one of the best characters on the whole Horus Heresy :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Erebus however is the true face of chaos. The dark manipulator, pulling strings and weaving plans. He's the arch traitor and to my mind one of the most fascinating characters in the entire mythos. I would sacrifice a whole swathe of the galaxy if I could read a book in the HH series entitled simply 'Erebus' filled with his villains exposition. Saa I agree completely, he is the best there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Maybe we'll see a bit more of one of them in Aurelian :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Starscream Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Even as a Word Bearers player I hold some contempt for the pair. Its not their 'depiction' that bothers me, its who they are. But just as Argel Tal did, despite my displeasure for them, they are still the 2nd and 3rd in command. >.>... gotta take orders don't ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 No Hate for either of them from me... I think they are both :D -ing brilliant!!!! There is nothign better than the two of them for examples when one is looking for an example of pure manipulative genius to strive for...... ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hear no Erebus bashing from me. He's the boss :D Kor Phaeron on the other hand annoys me... Aye. Not sure why, TBH, but Erebus seems pretty awesome while Kor Phaeron is less than amazing, somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hear no Erebus bashing from me. He's the boss :D Kor Phaeron on the other hand annoys me... Aye. Not sure why, TBH, but Erebus seems pretty awesome while Kor Phaeron is less than amazing, somehow. I remember having a very negative reaction to Kor Phaeron after reading The First Heretic, but I can't for the life of me remember what the specifics were. I've read so many BL novels that most of the details fade into one big picture that I would be hard pressed to explain and at a complete loss as to how to cite, but there it is. I would say that I read too much, but I don't think it's possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hear no Erebus bashing from me. He's the boss :D Kor Phaeron on the other hand annoys me... Aye. Not sure why, TBH, but Erebus seems pretty awesome while Kor Phaeron is less than amazing, somehow. I remember having a very negative reaction to Kor Phaeron after reading The First Heretic, but I can't for the life of me remember what the specifics were. I've read so many BL novels that most of the details fade into one big picture that I would be hard pressed to explain and at a complete loss as to how to cite, but there it is. I would say that I read too much, but I don't think it's possible... You just summed up my thoughts about literature, BL, and Kor Phaeron very nicely. Well done B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antarius Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 ^ There's also the less than sublte implication that Kor Phaeron, Erebus, Sor Bakphal and the rest may have been responsible for originally swaying the Word Bearers towards Chaos worship, and are therefore directly responsible for the corruption of the other Traitor Legions too. In that regard, they are to some degree responsible for the evils of both the Long War and the present day Imperium (which has, ironically, degenerated into precisely the opposite of what the Emperor seems to have intended). Um, have you read First Heretic? It's not exactly "subtle implication", it's outright stated that Erebus and Kor Phaeron were the ones to turn Lorgar to Chaos-worship. It's not "subtle" it's "less than subtle". So I think you agree :D Anyway, I like Erebus as a character so far. I don't really have any strong feelings about Phaeron at this point. I can see thinking that he's a bit silly as a concept (ie a non-astartes astartes commander), but depending on how it's handled I think it might work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I didn't have a problem with the concept of Kor Phaeron. I think its perfectly reasonable that a Primarch would have a close friend 'enhanced' to proto-astartes level. Its also easy to understand the proto-astartes being given a position of power. Luther is another example of this. Sure, neither of these characters turned out to be the nicest of chaps but there isn't anything silly about the concept. Kor Phaeron's problem is that he isn't as cool as Erebus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Um, have you read First Heretic? It's not exactly "subtle implication", it's outright stated that Erebus and Kor Phaeron were the ones to turn Lorgar to Chaos-worship.It's not "subtle" it's "less than subtle". So I think you agree ;) My point was that it's not "may have turned the Word Bearers", it's "yeah, it was the influence of Erebus and Kor Phaeron who turned Lorgar to Chaos-worship, no doubt about it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the emperor is scottish Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I have a general hatred for the Word bearers in general. They are the first traitors and it was their doing that braught about the fall of the crusade. They seem overly schemey for traitors and the level of mistrust within the legion makes me surprised the legion is apparently still operating large numbers and work as a force instead of fractured warbands. My hate for erebus is huge though. His arogance in the hh books is outstanding and every time he poped up I was hoping for loken to rip his arm off and beat him to death with it. Again my knowlage of Kor Phaeron is limited but for what I've read I like him. The none astrate rising to one of the top dogs in the legion AND commanding the 1st company! Besides how bad ass does he look http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/image...Kor_Phaeron.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I'm really glad I stopped reading Black Library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Some of it's pretty damned good. Going off the entire publisher is like stopping reading in general because Twilight was written. Yes, they have some less-than-impressive authors, but what genre, series or publisher doesn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Personally, I just don't like them because they're part of a larger trend from the IA articles of making the Primarchs' turn to Chaos the result of manipulation by faceless, mustache-twirling Grand Vizier types. I think an outright majority of the Traitor Primarchs, at this point, were tricked into serving Chaos. To me, this makes the Heresy more absurd than tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Personally, I just don't like them because they're part of a larger trend from the IA articles of making the Primarchs' turn to Chaos the result of manipulation by faceless, mustache-twirling Grand Vizier types. I think an outright majority of the Traitor Primarchs, at this point, were tricked into serving Chaos. To me, this makes the Heresy more absurd than tragic. I'm not sure I fully agree with you Lex, unless you're counting warp entities/daeamons as methods to trick the primarchs. But even then, I would say that the "tricking" arguement makes more sense than suddenly deciding that you don't like your god-father who you were grown to adore/worship/serve. I feel like Night Haunter and Angron were the only primarchs who went traitor with their eyes wide open. For the rest it was either manipulation, trickery or necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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